Atlantis Report post Posted February 18, 2007 The best solution would have been giving people the opportunity to buy their nexus back before the buyable nexuses were added, but it's too late for that now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redsoxlovr10 Report post Posted February 18, 2007 Wow, I love this idea, its definatly gona increase the demand for hydro bars and their ingredients, fe, coal, hydro ore, i cant wait. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
senkrad Report post Posted February 19, 2007 With Nexus being buyable and if nexus can be returned it will not matter if they were orginally purchased with PP. 1)someone buys a nexus in something they have 0 in by accident, they didn't want it there so to fix it they have to pay as mentioned 70hydro is a crazy amount per point but hey maybe better than a reset 2)some one want to maximize their points, so they trade their human from 7 down to 0 for 140 bars and buy them back for 350 bars net result 70 hydro per pp If they can be maximized and someone has the coin they might choose to do it but flaging won't work due to being able to play with the other nexus that you don't have a need to change to provide the flexibilty one is looking for. As for abuse of the buying through a reset it won't help much for example, some one gets to a high level (say 101) does reset and only buys nexus with hydro, 101 pp down the drain buys the orginal 34 nexus they wanted works for the ~46mil xp to get them back to level 101, they now have 134 pp worth of levels for about 92 mil xp which is level 115 so thus a differnce of 19 levels in pp. but then the player is with reasonable likely hood buying nexus that are out side of what they would be focusing on any ways resulting in a focused lvl 115 character would still likely beat them in what ever contest was appropriate or at least be near equal, so they are both potion makers but one has bought the 7 nexus of human they go head to head in a potion making contest to check failure rates the 7 nexus in human is not likely to help. Maybe I am way off. There may be some critical stage where this is a problem like aroung lvl 60 or 70 if one can become "rich" by then, but simply putting an oa level cap on the purchase of nexus would mean they would need to work up to the appropriate level to make use of the benifit and reseting to buy nexus would be almost silly as it would take an amazing amount of time to build ones character to that previous level without any benifit of tools to do it. After that level it seems to me, with out checking all the posibilities that the benifit would be minimal. I don't know I just don't see any great abuse possible(maybe worthwhile is a better word), can someone layout for me how such "abuse" would directly benifit a player using a reasonable scenario (I do not know if my scenario is reasonable). Things like what level would this become a benifit, is it likely that getting to that level will leave someone with the resources to pull off the change, and after the change and they have returned to their orginal oa are they actually better off than if they kept what they had and made sure they had an uber set of everything? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Atlantis Report post Posted February 19, 2007 You completely missed the point. The problem with getting pp back is that somebody can buy a nexus for 50 bars, then get the pp back for 20 more, net result -> 1 pp bought Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
senkrad Report post Posted February 19, 2007 Or they can get pp back then buy the nexus to replace it net result -> 1 pp bought. The only differnce in this scenario is they are limited by the number of nexus they buy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Llywar Report post Posted February 21, 2007 You completely missed the point. The problem with getting pp back is that somebody can buy a nexus for 50 bars, then get the pp back for 20 more, net result -> 1 pp bought Is this a really big problem? It seems like an insane amount to spend, and it helps create more demand for manufacturing as well. I'm not sure why people are upset about the idea of "rich people" buying pp's. Sure, you could maybe get 12k gc for $5 or so, but if you want 50 bars that is about $250. That is a LOT for anybody to spend on a game, and yet it will help improve things for everybody else if somebody actually bothers to spend it. I could see somebody doing this to get maybe 1 pp, but more likely they'd be buying weapons/armor or something along those lines. I doubt somebody is going to spend $3000 or so to get 10pp's. And even if they did that would mean more server capacity, more dev time, etc. The fact is that time==money, no matter how you slice it. Somebody with more real-life dollars can do a whole lot more than you in ANY online game. Even if there were no EL store somebody with money to burn could just pay somebody to grind for them. I'm sure if I offered the biggest complainer about this on this forum a million dollars US cash for a CoL they'd be willing to sell me one. I'm sure the rich folks sit around and complain about all those losers who have nothing better to do with their free time than grind on some game. One group has time to kill, the other has money to burn. Both consider themselves elite. As for me - I just have fun playing! I may never level as far as some, and I'll never have as much cash as others, but that isn't why I play the game. Sure, I'd like to see balance in the game - it makes it a lot more fun (hats off to Entropy). However, I'm not going to start a war just because it is conceivable that Bill Gates could possibly get a higher level than some guy who sits around in his dorm skipping classes while grinding all day. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Atlantis Report post Posted February 21, 2007 I'm not sure why people are upset about the idea of "rich people" buying pp's. Sure, you could maybe get 12k gc for $5 or so, but if you want 50 bars that is about $250. That is a LOT for anybody to spend on a game, and yet it will help improve things for everybody else if somebody actually bothers to spend it. I could see somebody doing this to get maybe 1 pp, but more likely they'd be buying weapons/armor or something along those lines. I doubt somebody is going to spend $3000 or so to get 10pp's. And even if they did that would mean more server capacity, more dev time, etc. You have no idea... Anyway, I don't really care about that risk, but I was just trying to explain to you what everyone else is talking about Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darky Report post Posted February 21, 2007 Maybe add a quest with pp purchase and quest can be done only once per day and/or one quest available per hour in the game for all ppl. Easy to cap pp purchases. -Darky Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Entropy Report post Posted February 21, 2007 I think 50 bars for a nexus is a good enough cap, yes? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scarr Report post Posted February 21, 2007 or 500k gold ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Entropy Report post Posted February 21, 2007 50 bars is not 500K gold. It's not like you can trade just 500K gold for 50 bars at once, you trade maybe 50K for 5 bars, then have to wait, then wait again, then trade maybe another 50K for 5 bars.. it can take days to get 50 bars. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vanyel Report post Posted February 21, 2007 (edited) Buyable nexus should never be possible to transfer - unless to other nexus. In moment you can buy nexus with bars and then transfer it with bars to attributes we can just make it possible to buy attributes as well. No difference, honestly. I was against buyable nexus and I did not change my mind. However it was implemented and I can live with it. Buyable attributes are just one step too far... Edited February 21, 2007 by Anshar Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Entropy Report post Posted February 21, 2007 Buyable nexus should never be possible to transfer - unless to other nexus. In moment you can buy nexus with bars and then transfer it with bars to attributes we can just make it possible to buy attributes as well. No difference, honestly. I was against buyable nexus and I did not change my mind. However it was implemented and I can live with it. Buyable attributes are just one step too far... Yeah, those evil IRL rich people... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vanyel Report post Posted February 21, 2007 Buyable nexus should never be possible to transfer - unless to other nexus. In moment you can buy nexus with bars and then transfer it with bars to attributes we can just make it possible to buy attributes as well. No difference, honestly. I was against buyable nexus and I did not change my mind. However it was implemented and I can live with it. Buyable attributes are just one step too far... Yeah, those evil IRL rich people... Not really important who it is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Llywar Report post Posted February 21, 2007 Buyable nexus should never be possible to transfer - unless to other nexus. In moment you can buy nexus with bars and then transfer it with bars to attributes we can just make it possible to buy attributes as well. No difference, honestly. I was against buyable nexus and I did not change my mind. However it was implemented and I can live with it. Buyable attributes are just one step too far... Yeah, those evil IRL rich people... Not really important who it is. I still don't get the objection. Buying a nexus or attribute amounts to doing a whole lot of in-game activity to obtain the necessary bars. "Earning" a nexus or attribute amounts to doing a whole lot of in-game activity to obtain the necessary xp. I certainly see the need to balance the two, but they are in fact equivalent. If I had a million dollars I'd just hire 5 guys from some 3rd world country and pay them 20 dollars a day each to just log in 24x7 with my character and grind xp. What is the difference between that and hading Entropy a check to obtain a whole stack of EFEs, trading them for hydro bars, and buying the nexus? The only one I can see is that Entropy gets the cash instead of a bunch of farmers, and lots of alch/manuf characters get employed to make bars instead of a bunch of farmers flooding the market with steel bars or whatever. As for me - I play to have fun. I don't care if I'm ever in the top 10 level-wise. Don't see myself buying tons of stuff from the store, but maybe if for some reason I really needed a rare item I might (not to mention supporting Entropy). I appreciate that the game needs to be balanced, but I'm under no illusions that those with more time/money to spare than me can choose to spend these resources to get ahead faster than I can. I could care less - I'm having fun! Gosh, if I just wanted the stress of trying to get ahead I'd spend more time at work - the pay is far better! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ambrosius Report post Posted February 21, 2007 LOL Cmon what is wrong with paying some hydro bars so you can redistribute a few hard earned PPs? I for one have some PP in nex that i dont use anymore now i advanced further in the game (or because the game has changed). Would be real nice if i could pay hydro bars so i can put them in other nexus or p/c/w. And yeah first buying a nex with 50 hydro bars and then paying for example 20 hydro bars so you can distribute it to p/c/w is buying "free" PP, but im sure there are solutions to prevent that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vanyel Report post Posted February 21, 2007 (edited) LOL Cmon what is wrong with paying some hydro bars so you can redistribute a few hard earned PPs? Imo, everything. Not the my concern anymore. And yeah first buying a nex with 50 hydro bars and then paying for example 20 hydro bars so you can distribute it to p/c/w is buying "free" PP, but im sure there are solutions to prevent that. That's what I'm wondering now and I do hope there is a solution that would prevent it. Edited February 21, 2007 by Anshar Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Szatan Report post Posted February 21, 2007 Back to my suggestion; a little modification -> you choose only 1 NPC. You buy pps or remove, no NPC changing unless you #reset Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Llywar Report post Posted February 21, 2007 And yeah first buying a nex with 50 hydro bars and then paying for example 20 hydro bars so you can distribute it to p/c/w is buying "free" PP, but im sure there are solutions to prevent that. That's what I'm wondering now and I do hope there is a solution that would prevent it. I personally don't see the need to prevent this at all. What form of abuse would this cause? If somebody can afford to burn 70 hydro bars per pp I don't see why we should be concerned. If the price is too low, well then just raise the price. I think it already sounds reasonable though. If Bill Gates wanted that many pp's he'd probably resort to farming anyway. If somebody posted on channel three that they wanted to buy 5000 hydro bars you can bet that people would get a higher price than 10k each - and PKers would be lining up on the route to the mines for some free S2E's. If you really want to avoid having people buy high level there are other ways to do it. I recall one MUD from ages past that required high-level players to earn xp by helping newbs. You could do similar things in EL such as awarding xp for modding/etc. Then people would actually need to earn their xp - and not just be the person with the most time to devote to slaying chims or whatever. Note, this is just a conceptual idea - I'm sure it has a million shortcomings (preventing people from multi-playing as they help out new accounts with old ones, etc). Bottom line is that levels are there to add to the fun of the game. People with lots of time and/or money will always find a way to exploit the rules to get ahead. Maybe that's just part of the game... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Entropy Report post Posted February 21, 2007 Back to my suggestion; a little modification -> you choose only 1 NPC. You buy pps or remove, no NPC changing unless you #reset People will complain about the evil rich IRL people that bought nexuses from the NPC before the "you have to chose which NPC" system is implemented. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Llywar Report post Posted February 21, 2007 People will complain... Your statement is just as accurate with only the first three words, but I'm sure you've learned that by now... There is always something to complain about, and suggestions can only help improve the system. The things everybody needs to remember are that nothing is perfect, nothing will ever be perfect, without change nothing will get better, and when mistakes are made they can usually be fixed... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vanyel Report post Posted February 21, 2007 (edited) People will complain and they will be at least in some part correct. For people that are able to buy stuff at storage for cash it's way easier to gather the 700k gc for 70 hydro bars than others. It doesn't mean they're evil or anything like this - they just use the opportunity to get advantages from absolutely legal. Question remains if such things should be even possible. Attributes are quite a bit more important than nexus and should never be possible to buy. Not important who buys them - 'evil rich irl people' or just 'not evil rich in game people'. Edited February 21, 2007 by Anshar Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Atlantis Report post Posted February 21, 2007 (edited) back to my suggestion Could work, I think. Set value n = PlayerOA - free pps - Perks + Negative Perks - Attributes - 4*6 (for starting attributes) If n= 0 then the player spent no pp on nexus. If n = 2 then the player spend 2 pp on nexus. Etc. So "n" is the amount of nexus that should be able to be removed with hydro bars, and prevents free pp It makes sure nobody gets "fake" pp, IE they can only have as many pp back from nexus as they spent with real pps. As for the perk capes having an effect, they would work against the intrests of the player anyway. Edited February 21, 2007 by Atlantis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grozni Report post Posted February 22, 2007 (edited) Just to clarify and prevent possible flaming: Idea is to make movable PP from nexus back to PP, but only those which are taken by PP already. That would prevent taking free stats. Omg, im guoting myself, but anyway I hope that people can understand it. So... this would make option for people to not reset, and use hydro bars for making their stats as much as perfect (not any pp used in nexus), that "perfect" situation could be done also by reseting and after that taking all nexuses you need with hydro bars (all pps on attributes, none on nexuses). But yes its more expensive to take those without reset, and return already spent pps, from nexuses to attributes. Without any flags on nexuses (saving on server which is taken by pp or hydro, and making max pps on attributes = oa) there is one more option: it will be possible to change nexus for same price as returning back pp from nexus to pp (which can be used for attribute). For perfect example: char with oa 30 and 30 spent on attributes, and bought 2 nexuses buy pp, could on next oa, use new pp on other nexus, and return already used one to free pp for xx hydro bars. That is only possible malversation (if that would be called malversation, but it also can be called possibility to change nexus to another for xx hydro bars) If that is not appropriate to devs, than this also could be done with saving bought nexuses on server. Both of variants, would be respected equaly, by people who didnt developed their char in direction with buyable nexuses. Or with newbs which havent enough knowledge about game, and used pp on nexus which can be reversed to pp later and taken by hydro bars. Just my opinion. Thank you for reading. EDIT: typo Edited February 22, 2007 by Grozni Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vanyel Report post Posted February 22, 2007 If there is such feature implemented I would prefer to see it either in way proposed by Atlantis or by Grozni. It would prevent buying attributes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
