master jeweler Report post Posted May 18, 2006 I also think that someone should not be able to use or put on some armors and swords, until they have the p/c to enable them to use it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ville-v Report post Posted May 18, 2006 I also think that someone should not be able to use or put on some armors and swords, until they have the p/c to enable them to use it. Why p/c? So if p/c requirement for plate and serp are 30/30, rich_newbie1 will equip them at oa 10 with some negative perks and go to kill deers. And then older_player2 resets. He needs to get oa to 60-75 before he can equip them, even when he has a/d at 100's. I still suggest a/d requirements... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nidan Report post Posted May 18, 2006 if i remember good then something was said about sub skills similiar to this.. you can lvl your sword usage or something.. the higher ur lvl with that sword is the better you use it. sound good imo though Yes, i developed a whole new a/d system once and posted it on the Dev forums. The more you use a particular weapon, the bette you are with it. Sadly it never got implemented and the Dev forums are gone now. (or moved and they didnt invite me this time ) But this is more to solve the issue with low level weapons not being used. It has little to do with this discussion. Before the big reset (yes yes, here we go again) you had to have certain levels to do or wear things. Like you needed at least level 45 harvesting to harvest titanium, and you needed a 30 skill to wear a particular cape. I liked that much better, I even competed with Nardo to see who would be the first to be able to wear a magic cape. Of course a lot of things have changed since then, most for the good, but I think they should have left this part in. PS: Note how i used the term 'low level weapons', while there aren't even level requirements Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aislinn Report post Posted May 18, 2006 It should be level requirements, not p/c requirements. Yes obviously you need some p/c but that should not be where the focus is at. It is just too easy to bulk up with almost no work. Nidan is right, required levels were so much better, for a lot of reasons. I have preached that and will preach that until I have no voice left If something is going to make you "better", it should be the thing you put the work into (levels), not the thing you got every neg perk available to bulk up in 5 minutes (p/c). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
the_voice Report post Posted May 18, 2006 It should be level requirements, not p/c requirements. Yes obviously you need some p/c but that should not be where the focus is at. It is just too easy to bulk up with almost no work. Nidan is right, required levels were so much better, for a lot of reasons. I have preached that and will preach that until I have no voice left If something is going to make you "better", it should be the thing you put the work into (levels), not the thing you got every neg perk available to bulk up in 5 minutes (p/c). hopefully your voice lasts long and is loud. and maybe it will be heard by the right persons \o/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zaer Report post Posted May 18, 2006 lol i remember when i was able to wear potion cape, was so happy cos i looked cool Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Terena Report post Posted May 20, 2006 I agree that it should be based on a/d levels mostly. Obviously a few p/c points to give the strength to carry it, and the coordination to wield it, but as has been said, its too easy to take a bunch of neg perks and have a huge p/c soon after starting. I certainly think this would help the market a lot. I'm finding myself making a lot of low-level items to level my manu, but no one's buying them, because they've all taken human nexuses as soon as they started and spent ages harving flowers to buy plate. With a/d restrictions I might actually be able to shift some of it. So thumbs up from me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thordin Report post Posted May 21, 2006 I certainly think this would help the market a lot. I'm finding myself making a lot of low-level items to level my manu, but no one's buying them, because they've all taken human nexuses as soon as they started and spent ages harving flowers to buy plate. With a/d restrictions I might actually be able to shift some of it. This was one of the things, I've come up with this thread. As said many times before, with level (whether A/D or P/C or combination of both) requirements, inferior weapons and armor would gain new purpose and the demand for them would be higher, thus helping the market a bit. Exactly as Terena stated: ages at flower bush and then the iron plate isn't good way for us, the blacksmiths, to perform our art of making items. Before I was able to make greaves/cuisses/steel chainmails, my skills were useless for the guild I'm glad to see that this debate is still live and become hot topic And as I've seen in posts here: P/C would be more logical step, but P/C is easy to gain with negative perks, so I suggest A requirements for weapons and D requirement for armor with sligth addition of P/C levels to stick to logic sense. Alas, I'm afraid that this debate remains only in this forum and won't be implemented, hope that I'm wrong with this... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thordin Report post Posted May 21, 2006 (edited) First, I apologize for double posting, but I think, that this is so important, it has to have its own post. My specific suggestions on A/D requirements: Armor Wooden shield Required defense: none Leather helm Required defense: none Leather boots Required defense: none Leather pants Required defense: none Leather torso Required defense: none Enhanced wooden shield Required defense: 5 Iron chainmail Required defense: 10 Iron shield Required defense: 15 Iron helm Required defense: 20 Steel chainmail Required defense: 25 Steel shield Required defense: 25 Steel helm Required defense: 30 Iron greaves Required defense: 30 Iron cuisses Required defense: 35 Iron platemail Required defense: 40 Titanium helm Required defense: 45 Steel greaves Required defense: 45 Steel cuisses Required defense: 50 Steel platemail Required defense: 55 Titanium greaves Required defense: 60 Titanium cuisses Required defense: 65 Titanium platemail Required defense: 70 Weapons Bone/branch Required attack: none Wooden staff Required attack: none Quarterstaff Required attack: 10 Wooden hammer Required attack: 5 Iron sword Required attack: none Iron broad sword Required attack: 10 Steel long sword Required attack: 15 Iron battlehammer Required attack: 20 Steel two-edged sword Required attack: 25 Iron axe Required attack: 30 Titanium short sword Required attack: 32 Steel axe Required attack: 35 TItanium long sword Required attack: 37 Titanium axe Required attack: 40 Titanium serpent sword Required attack: 45 Those new swords Required attack: 50-65 It's not complete, please, don't blame/flame me, if I forgot something. These are just the suggestions, I left CoL/CoM/Branch oD/Bone oD/Axe oF and others, because, I'm not familiar with those and I cannot say, how powerful they are, I never used them. As for the magic sword, I think the requirements should be raised like +5 for fire, +6 for ice, +7 for magic and +10 for thermal. This would provide more variability od worn gear, more demand on market for lower level items and, how to say, an excitement with any new requisite Imagine this: you have A/D like 39/44, you are almost on edge, looking forward to wear new items, to look more "kewl", to have better chance of survival with those. This would give some fun to A/D leveling, not just mindless wolf killing with full plate mail (many of us have seen this regularly). If you WANT A BETTER ITEMS, you HAVE TO EARN THE RIGHT to wear them. (Now, if you fall asleep, reading this post, WAAAAKEEE UUUP!!! and give EL monster hell ) EDIT: levels adjusted (will be doing this reqularly), added those new swords Edited May 26, 2006 by ThordinElement Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kibora Report post Posted May 21, 2006 Seems a little bit low. I'd say at least 80-100 def for tit plate. And magic weapons could also be added at 80+ att or something Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thordin Report post Posted May 21, 2006 As I stated above, levels were suggested, now they are to be discussed. Titanium plate with defense 80 is EVIL , it is not necessarily meant only for the top 20 players Magic weapons on the other hand... I agree, that thermal serpent should be at least 70, but as for ISOF? 80+ fo ISOF is not sane IMHO, this weapon (along with all up to s2e) are only nice looking, expensive piece of crap, useless in PK/fighting So approx 30+ A for ISOF should be fine. There is no need at all, from my point of view, to get the highest items almost unreachable for those, below top 20 in A/D. This is supposed to restrict LOW level players (which I consider A/D up to 30-40) not experienced ones, Having A/D 60+/60+ is enough to be considered at least formidable levels. And difference between 60 and 80-100 is HUGE! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ville-v Report post Posted May 21, 2006 10 attack and 8 defense to wear stuff you get from tutorial npc? I think you should make beginning of list bit lower and end of list bit higher. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thordin Report post Posted May 21, 2006 (edited) Slight adjustment made, how about now?... According to this scheme, now you'll have to have level 70 of defense to wear full titanium set and 70 of attack to wear titanium serpent of thermal... EDIT: line 2 addition Edited May 21, 2006 by ThordinElement Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torg Report post Posted May 22, 2006 I'm still inclined to say rather than have required levels, have the armour/weapon be detrimental to your fighting until you are at the level you can use it effectively. This would mean that we could all have our sexy shiny's for special occasions.... but you wouldn't want to fight in them. Other than that, I agree that the lower level magic swords s2e etc should be accessable to lower level fighters (30 or 40+) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CelticLady Report post Posted May 22, 2006 (edited) I certainly think this would help the market a lot. I'm finding myself making a lot of low-level items to level my manu, but no one's buying them, because they've all taken human nexuses as soon as they started and spent ages harving flowers to buy plate. With a/d restrictions I might actually be able to shift some of it. This was one of the things, I've come up with this thread. As said many times before, with level (whether A/D or P/C or combination of both) requirements, inferior weapons and armor would gain new purpose and the demand for them would be higher, thus helping the market a bit. Exactly as Terena stated: ages at flower bush and then the iron plate isn't good way for us, the blacksmiths, to perform our art of making items. Before I was able to make greaves/cuisses/steel chainmails, my skills were useless for the guild I'm glad to see that this debate is still live and become hot topic And as I've seen in posts here: P/C would be more logical step, but P/C is easy to gain with negative perks, so I suggest A requirements for weapons and D requirement for armor with sligth addition of P/C levels to stick to logic sense. Alas, I'm afraid that this debate remains only in this forum and won't be implemented, hope that I'm wrong with this... In general I like the idea Torg mentioned having a detrimental effect if you aren't at the level to use something effectively. I just have to disagree that anything below Iron plate is sort of useless. I sell far more steel chain then I have ever sold plate. For weapons, I do sell more serps than other weapons, but steel longs have been a decent seller on occassion (and not just to Trik). That was only part of Thordin's reason for suggesting to make the change, but is one I disagree with, at least on the plate vs lower armor stand point. I too am tired of every newb and their dog having plate and serp for wolves etc. so I would like to see something similar to Torg's idea if anything. Great job getting this topic started Thordin and for keeping an open mind on other peoples suggestions too Edited May 22, 2006 by CelticLady Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torg Report post Posted May 22, 2006 I will add that my suggestion would require more coding on the server, rather than a simple change in a few configuration files. For this reason, it is much more likely that hard requirements levels be reintroduced, at least in the interum. However, once they are in its hard to get that sort of thing changed back. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thordin Report post Posted May 22, 2006 Could you please work this idea out more deeper? Maybe we can find some merging/combining compromise between those systems. Or do you think, it's too different to combine them? Maybe some basic hard-written requirements combined with battle skills is possible... I understand, that my solution is a bit too simple, but I think, more complicated solutions are too dificult to add them with not much effort as is mine. But I'm glad that even mods are into this discussion, a sign, this wasn't pointless suggestion... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aislinn Report post Posted May 22, 2006 I'm still inclined to say rather than have required levels, have the armour/weapon be detrimental to your fighting until you are at the level you can use it effectively. This would mean that we could all have our sexy shiny's for special occasions.... but you wouldn't want to fight in them. Other than that, I agree that the lower level magic swords s2e etc should be accessable to lower level fighters (30 or 40+) I disagree with this. You shouldn't be able to wear the sexy shiny's unless you've earned the right to wear them. One of the major points of required levels is that it gives the higher levels the "right" to wear it because they earned it and the lower levels haven't earned it yet. The higher levels need that goal, that status symbol as well. EL should have something for everyone...newbs, middles, and high levels. Not just cater to noobs. We want a well-rounded EL. Not just make the newbies happy. EL needs to be able to keep the high level players too and we haven't been so good at doing that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torg Report post Posted May 22, 2006 One of the major points of required levels is that it gives the higher levels the "right" to wear it because they earned it and the lower levels haven't earned it yet. The higher levels need that goal, that status symbol as well. EL should have something for everyone...newbs, middles, and high levels. Not just cater to noobs. Yeah, that's fair. However if you go to a wedding, you usually wear something a little nicer than your day to day clothes... and I consider leather armour that. Especially for non-fighters. It would be really cool and cover this scenario if there were some other clothes available that you could wear for special occasions. I believe this is coming (not sure when) but at the same time, people will like them and always wear them... so it becomes less special again. Another consideration is what about all the non-fighters. If fighters can show their status as fighters, but you are an alchemist... we need to have specific things that an alc can equip to show their attained status, and of course for all the other skills. I think this is a more complex issue than what we are talking about here, and kinda off topic so I'll drop it now. Back on topic... I prefer the idea of armour and weapons having a detrimental effect if you don't know how to use them as it seems more realistic (and yes I know this is a game etc... but that seems like a cool idea). Anyway... I do agree that it should be a status issue and therefore linked to attained level. Maybe as suggested, a combination. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nidan Report post Posted May 22, 2006 I agree with Aislinn on the newbie catering. This does not motivate new players to become better at all. When a newbie has harvested flowers for a few hours, they can afford the very best stuff in the game. Newbie09322: Ok, cool! Now i have all the armor and weapons in the game. Uhm.. now what? OK, next game! *logs off* Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thordin Report post Posted May 22, 2006 I understand Torg's motives, but I think it's bit much complicated and one point: what do non-fighters need armor/weapons for? There is still cool looking fur outfit, combined with cape, staff and CoL, it looks awesome and you don't need rattling chains or rusty plates. And as Torg stated before, it would require much more coding than this option. Although A/D requirements seems most unrealistic, they are most fair from my point of view (AND I AM NOT FIGHTER, I WON'T BE ABLE TO WEAR AS MUCH THINGS AS YOU, WHO ARE UPSET OF THIS ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CelticLady Report post Posted May 22, 2006 I understand Torg's motives, but I think it's bit much complicated and one point: what do non-fighters need armor/weapons for? There is still cool looking fur outfit, combined with cape, staff and CoL, it looks awesome and you don't need rattling chains or rusty plates. And as Torg stated before, it would require much more coding than this option. Although A/D requirements seems most unrealistic, they are most fair from my point of view (AND I AM NOT FIGHTER, I WON'T BE ABLE TO WEAR AS MUCH THINGS AS YOU, WHO ARE UPSET OF THIS ) I understand that Torg's option is alot of work, I just like that idea the best. Then you "could" wear the armor, but at a cost. People wouldn't wear it as much because it caused a negative effect, but I could still sell it to them. Narrowing down the customer base too much is not going to help out on sales or on keeping the prices up on new weapons/armor. Fewer people to buy means fewer people dictating what they will spend for something. I obviously am not a fighter either, and when I do train I centainly don't wear plate. However, I would like to be able to wear nicer armor if some sort of lvl restrictions were put into place. On that note, I wouldn't like to see astronomical stats required to wear them. Yes, I think you should have to "earn" the right to wear/use armor and weapons properly. If you make it too far out of reach then anyone other than a pure fighter won't ever be able to wear/use them. One of the appealing parts of this game is that I don't have to specialize. I have chosen to, but I am fairly well rounded and do "all" skills atleast somewhat. If I wanted to wear/use new armor and weapons I would have to switch my specialty to fighting and potentially not have the required manu lvl to make all the new items. Yes, it is a trade off, but kinda defeats the purpose in a way of having a game where you don't have to choose a specialty. That's just my opinion, and of course has selfish ideas behind it. I'm not saying that I shouldn't have to work to wear/use items, but I don't think I should have to go all out fighter to be able to either. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thordin Report post Posted May 22, 2006 One simple question to all: If you are not a fighter, why do you want to wear heavy armor... Possible answer from all: I want to look cool Seems like not much of reason to me... But I do agree, that it would be fair to have something for top crafters/manuers/potioners/summoners/alchemists/harvesters, oh dear, this is getting huge! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aislinn Report post Posted May 22, 2006 But I do agree, that it would be fair to have something for top crafters/manuers/potioners/summoners/alchemists/harvesters, oh dear, this is getting huge! Agreed but that's another topic And it isn't like it's an all or nothing deal...you don't get stuck with leather until you are 100 a/d. There are many items along the way to the top best fanciest shiniest items. The point is there should be goals to work for, in all skills. Without goals, people lose interest. All things should NOT be available for all players, regardless of level. I just don't think that's right. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vormavius Report post Posted May 22, 2006 Actually, as I stated, low lvls guys wear plate, while high lvls guys wear leather or steel chain Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
