Calling all guildleaders

[Fyvle]

... but imo a guild is started by someone who has a clear vision about what his/her guild should represent

 

I would agree that a large number of guilds were created in the fashion you suggest, but not all were and this is a little worrisome to me. U see, this council is based *soley* on guild leaders. Thats it. Nothing else. And there may be some guilds out there that were started on a whim, with no direction or aim or vision to them that seem to get by on the seat of their pants. The system as it is proposed doesn't seem to be a very balanced one at best.

 

please read further

 

You have to understand; i came up with this idea... and I had to start somewhere

 

Quite understandable indeed. I can see why you started with a system be based on Guilds because it seems everybody wants to be in a Guild started by a guild leader with a vision, goal, purpose, etc etc etc. But some players don't want to be in a Guild. And Vanyel makes an interesting point (Beat me to it u lil' bugger )

 

Point is - if they would like to reunite they would join guild, wouldn't they? They prefer to stay guildless, but still they ARE the part of community - what rights the Council will have to decide in their name?

 

And this bothers me too... that there would be a relatively large amount of the EL population that would be presided over by an appointed person, and not a person of their choosing. Essentially, the guildless and the newbies are to be annex.

 

The guildleaders represent a group with the same ideas (imo) and therefor the guildleaders would make an exelent start to begin with.

 

I see what you're saying, because you believe guilds were created with a vision by the guildleaders... but I gotta say it. There are guild leaders out there who I wouldn't trust to sit the right way on a toilet seat! While I agree these are not the majority of guild leaders, I would like to point out that these same people get a say in council.

 

Would it be possible to recall a guild leader if they screw up royally? What if an entire guild wanted to vote yes for something but the guild leader, for whatever reason, ignored his/her guildies and voted no? Atm from what I've seen, and I confess I've read only about 60% of this thread, there's no provision for a council recognition of representative recall. The Guild leaders are the reps. If no guild leaders online, then the guild can elect a rep. Thats close, but doesn't address the situation of a rep recall.

 

 

Kind of OFF TOPIC:

 

I see here one big problem, instead of unity the community this MIGHT (doesn't have to) devide it.

 

I believe it has already. But thats natural in a democratic (or pseudo-democratic in this case) situation. 51% of the people say yes, 49% of the people say no. The "Yes" vote wins and we do whatever they voted for without any discussion, compromises etc. The largest split wins first place, and to the victor goes the spoils. Second place is a set of steak knives, thanks for coming out. Third place, you're fired and you go sit on the bench with Ross Perot.

[Damned_Angel]

First, i caught a very bad cold that prevented me for beeing active both on EL/Forums. I would be more active in the first days of the New Year.

 

Potential description of a guild meeting.

 

Preparation of the meeting

 

- deciding the date/time/location of the meeting - through polls in Council Forums. - 1 week

- all Council members submit ideas to be discussed in the next Council - posts in "Round Table" sections of the Council Forums (allready some ideas for debate were posted by current members)

- Council members nominate - if they can't participate - due to various reasons - the envoys that would represent their guilds.

- a moderator for the meeting would be chosen

 

Meeting

 

- representatives gather in the selected spot

- 10 minutes for *hugs*, *virtual coffee*, *registration*

- everyone sits down.

- the moderator announces the topics that were submitted by representatives

- the discutions on the first topic began

- everyone rise up and talks her/his ideas then sits down when his/her speech is over

- after that every person that has potential comments rise up and in the order they did they speak

- after everyone has spoken he/she sits down

- if there is a proposal for a vote, coming from the representatives speech the moderator would announce the poll with the discussed options.

- representatives may add options till everyone is satisfied

- then everyone votes.

- comments on the voting

- moving to the next issue to be debated

- the procedure repeats till the wanted subjects are debated.

 

remember that only very important issues would be subjects of the meeting - the importance would be given by Council Forums polls prior to the meeting. The rest would be decided/voted on Council forums

 

 

Post-Meeting

 

The moderator would post minutes of the meeting on the Council Forums underlining:

- the positions of each representative

- the major points that were underlined by representatives

- meeting chat

 

Applying the Council Regulament:

 

The moderator of the meeting has a council regulament to follow when posting the decision taken within the meeting:

 

Eg. "If the meeting poll was not representative for the community - meaning if none of the options was not selected by qualified majority "50%+1" of the Council representatives the poll is resubmitted to the Council Forums. - "Guild Council Regulament. Section: Voting - letter al. 2"

 

etc.

Edited December 28, 2005 by Damned_Angel

[Ghrae]

If I might make a suggestion,

 

Due to typing speeds and number of potential opinions at any given meeting, perhaps the idea of a "live meeting" should be re-thought.

 

Making forum threads (with no voting at first - let the discussion hammer out details; then a 2nd post for the actual voting) is much kinder to the various schedules in real life, time zones, etc that will prevent everyone from attending such meetings.

 

"Live meetings" are popular but as teh groups get bigger the logistics become virtually impossible to keep under control. Which begs the question: what NEEDS to be done during a live meeting? Perhaps just a regular (i.e. monthly ?) gathering for people to post ideas (no discussion allowed, but it allows the meeting manager to gather ideas and start the appropriate forum threads).

[Jezebelle]

If I might make a suggestion,

 

Due to typing speeds and number of potential opinions at any given meeting, perhaps the idea of a "live meeting" should be re-thought.

 

Making forum threads (with no voting at first - let the discussion hammer out details; then a 2nd post for the actual voting) is much kinder to the various schedules in real life, time zones, etc that will prevent everyone from attending such meetings.

 

"Live meetings" are popular but as teh groups get bigger the logistics become virtually impossible to keep under control. Which begs the question: what NEEDS to be done during a live meeting? Perhaps just a regular (i.e. monthly ?) gathering for people to post ideas (no discussion allowed, but it allows the meeting manager to gather ideas and start the appropriate forum threads).

 

 

Thank you for your suggestion. Indeed a life meeting would cause probs with the time zones and communications. Still, meeting eachother live adds to the feeling of bonding so imo we should not erase that. As for the communication probs, i suggested to have, besides the Council, a daily Board to discuss matters that can later on be voted on by the entire Council. Such a daily Board should offcourse be elected by the Council.

And, as i do with my own guildmeetings, logs can always be posted afterwards so those who didnt attend can respond and read up later.

 

 

Jez

[Sheesh]

Another thought has come to mind...What about term limits for the guild council members. It is easy to vote on something when you are on a council because you know you have a say into the matters at hand and know that you will probably not have to live in the same conditions as the ones not with vote. If all have term limits, they may rethink their positions and do it in a community effort and not a "what's in it for me" effort. Just a thought.

[Jezebelle]

Another thought has come to mind...What about term limits for the guild council members. It is easy to vote on something when you are on a council because you know you have a say into the matters at hand and know that you will probably not have to live in the same conditions as the ones not with vote. If all have term limits, they may rethink their positions and do it in a community effort and not a "what's in it for me" effort. Just a thought.

 

 

Erm..I dont get it..can you explain that to me?

 

Jez

[Guest Khorros]

Ok, I have read through this thread with a head-ache as a result.

 

Some comments:

 

1) The idea is good, but lacks details.

2) Ask yourself the question: why do you want to form a council?

3) And another question: what can the counsil do against the bad guys?

 

My opinion is that the guilds are formed through the combining of like-minds with same ideas and views. Some players chose not to be in a guild because they don't agree with their views.

 

Then what's the point in forming a council of guildies to govern those that won't listen anyway?

 

I view the council as a formation of leaders of the leaders of the guilds. In other words, just another guild-hierarchy.

 

What if after long discussions and several meetings the council decides to silence a player? Do you really think that player wasn't already silenced by those he mistreated? And do you really think that if the counsil pronounces the sentence, everybody will listen and follow it?

It's a waste of time as long as the true power lies elsewhere.

 

We already have the mods to control and regulate. How many more groups do we need? And what's next? A group to control the council?

 

And to help newbies just do so. I know we do as a guild and as individual players to the extend that each will decide for himself.

And to discuss ideas, there are plenty of threads in this forum to do so.

 

Harsh words I know , but that's how I am:direct and to the point. Feel free to completely ignore me. And please don't be offended by me, it's really not worth it.

 

btw I'm in CEL, but these are my thoughts! Although I would like to say to Kit: hear! hear!

[Jezebelle]

Ok, I have read through this thread with a head-ache as a result.

 

Some comments:

 

1) The idea is good, but lacks details.

2) Ask yourself the question: why do you want to form a council?

3) And another question: what can the counsil do against the bad guys?

 

My opinion is that the guilds are formed through the combining of like-minds with same ideas and views. Some players chose not to be in a guild because they don't agree with their views.

 

Then what's the point in forming a council of guildies to govern those that won't listen anyway?

 

I view the council as a formation of leaders of the leaders of the guilds. In other words, just another guild-hierarchy.

 

What if after long discussions and several meetings the council decides to silence a player? Do you really think that player wasn't already silenced by those he mistreated? And do you really think that if the counsil pronounces the sentence, everybody will listen and follow it?

It's a waste of time as long as the true power lies elsewhere.

 

We already have the mods to control and regulate. How many more groups do we need? And what's next? A group to control the council?

 

And to help newbies just do so. I know we do as a guild and as individual players to the extend that each will decide for himself.

And to discuss ideas, there are plenty of threads in this forum to do so.

 

Harsh words I know , but that's how I am:direct and to the point. Feel free to completely ignore me. And please don't be offended by me, it's really not worth it.

 

btw I'm in CEL, but these are my thoughts! Although I would like to say to Kit: hear! hear!

 

Correct me if im wrong, but i read in your post that you dont see the need to form a Council.

In my long-time experience as a player I find it IS needed to form such a Council.

And that is exactly why I am trying to make this happen.

I explain the hows and whys as far as Im able to, so i wont get into that again.

As for punishing the 'bad guys'; i think it has more effect if it is done by more then a few players from a guild. As for this World having mods; not all is seen and punished or even punishable by them, as we all know. We try to be an addition to them.

 

Thank you for your opinion

 

Jez

[Sheesh]

Another thought has come to mind...What about term limits for the guild council members. It is easy to vote on something when you are on a council because you know you have a say into the matters at hand and know that you will probably not have to live in the same conditions as the ones not with vote. If all have term limits, they may rethink their positions and do it in a community effort and not a "what's in it for me" effort. Just a thought.

 

 

Erm..I dont get it..can you explain that to me?

 

Jez

 

In the ages of Kings and power mongers, they lived by the golden rule "He who has the gold, makes the rules" and these people never considered living by the same rules as they dictated to others. They just protected what they felt they needed to keep the power. Term limits disrupt this idea, as after a time the ones dishing out the power, must step down and live with those not in power.

You REAP what You SOW: Life is like a boomerang. Our thoughts, deeds and words return to us sooner or later, with astounding accuracy. (Grant M. Bright)

Landlords, like all other men, love to reap where they never sowed. (Karl Marx)

 

Hope this explains further.

Edited December 28, 2005 by Sheesh

[Damned_Angel]

I have some corrections to make.

 

1) The Council WAS formed and 8 guilds are in allready.

2) The Council representativity for the community is ~100 active EL players (total ~ 150)

3) The Council even quite representative for a part of the community is in the process of definition (on the Council Forums - not here)

4) The Council is trying to strengthen up by adding more value to it as a whole, through new guilds representatives joining.

5) I would kindly thank to everyone that asks questions about the council, but i'm afraid the answers can't be offered too soon since most of the (allready) members are trying to work in the council definition etc on the Council Forums. Most of the things that are worked atm are in draft version so they can't be debated or used as answers for the questions posted here. Not yet. As soon as the members would agree on a regulament - for instance - goals etc, it will be made public.

 

 

I love the suggestions posted here - Ghrae, Van, LW and others came with amazing ideas and i thank them for that. The only regret i have is that their guilds are not yet represented in the internal debates since would brnig more value to the council itself.

 

For the moment the Council is not fully functional as a structure. This would take some time and probably the best way is to start after new year. In this moment the Council is one neutral place where various issues are debated and probably when the members will agree will officially react to some issues that the members agreed on.

 

I have a comment:

 

Eternal Lands is in Beta Version and many updates can take place without other announcements if those are to improve the game itself (i hope i've quoted ok). Some times when the game has problems there are updates that fix those problems.

 

Please consider the Council also in Beta Version. As EL devs do, we try to build something better to offer multiple features to our members. If there are problems we try to fix those problems. We ask for the same patience and kindness since we build this from scratch. If something is wrong we will fix it. But we can't know if something is wrong without the test period.

 

Most of you are amazing players that have enormous experience and expertize. All i ask is the same attitude for a while. I mean quoting an old Jez post forever is not a solution. That was a problem. The future "updates" fixed it. Is like we are keeping saying that Iscarlith storage is buggy, after the people that hardly work for this game to be more interesting fixed it.

 

Nothing is perfect. No one is perfect. So better start with something and improve it than renounce to start because you haven't found the perfect solution yet. Eternal Lands proves that. Is a magnificent game in beta version. We love it and respect the work of the devs even sometimes it affects us more or less.

 

So please try to see with the same attitude the Guild Council.

 

Thank you and Happy New Year!!!!

 

your friend

Angel

[Fyvle]

A question:

 

Nothing is perfect. No one is perfect. So better start with something and improve it than renounce to start because you haven't found the perfect solution yet.

 

So if we - the EL Community - find a better solution than that which has already been put into place, you will abandon your position in favor of the better solution?

[LadyWolf]

Ok, How the heck is the guild going to be able to"punish" bad players and more effectively than the moderators can? The Council will have absolutely no "power" to carry out any such thing. Roja already made that clear when she said something to the effect that "this has no place in the game." (not an exact quote).

 

So all I see is a group of people, getting together, bitching and moaning cause "this guy is a bag jumper" "that guy is a scammer" blah blah blah.. Ok now what? Council says ok, we won't trade with that player anymore or he is now an outcast. Umm. Ok, so tell me how this is effective? It can do nomore than what we can already do to punish the bad guys now.

 

As it stands now there are blacklists for trading, no deathbag return lists, blacklists for guilds that own bots, and pk lists. What more can a "powerless" Guild Council do?

 

The mods carry out punishments as they are deemed fit and according within the rules of the game. The guild council cannot do more than that, and cannot do as much as the mods can. The guild council (altho some may really wanna try) cannot rewrite the rules to suit their own objective. True the mods are taxed and don't catch every greivance, and can't punish everything (due to GAME rules as they stand), but they do what is in their power.

 

So I ask you what good is this really? An organized bitch fest? Tis what it seems to me that it will become.

 

If the game developers themselves were onboard for this idea and wanted to levy powers to the council, THEN and only THEN could this be effective, but I don't see Roja or Entropy backing this idea.

[Ghrae]

As for this World having mods; not all is seen and punished or even punishable by them, as we all know. We try to be an addition to them.

 

Woah! This scares the crap out of me.

 

An addition to the mods? That is a bit vague and open ended. One of those statements that really is wide open and very dangerous. Do you believe there needs to be more mods? Different mods? Why does the guild Council need to be an addition to them?

 

And please, no "you don't understand" or "it didn't come out the way I meant it" - your signature of "*say what you mean and mean what you say*" suggests that you either should think before you type or you mean what you have said.

 

I had questions and concerns with structure before... but now... now your whole idea really begins to scare me.

[LadyWolf]

 

 

As for this World having mods; not all is seen and punished or even punishable by them, as we all know. We try to be an addition to them.

 

 

I missed that the first time I read the post. Seems the thoughts I have been having about the true inuendo behind this idea are becoming a bit more clear now. I'll not openly speak those thoughts, because again, I'm not out to flame anyone or personally attack anyone.

 

I just ask that you really take a good look at all that has been posted here and really think long and hard about what this council can really do, being that it is just as powerless as the rest of us in EL.

Edited December 29, 2005 by LadyWolf

[ttlanhil]

being that it is just as powerless as the rest of us in EL.

no it's not. it has the authority of the outlaws forum(and can cover the same grounds) with (theoretically) a lot more organisation and respect... and potential for abuse

[LadyWolf]

It cannot carry out a punishment that will be as effective as one that a mod could. You do not get the point ttlanhil. Yes it can post. It can talk, it can talk til it's blue in the face! The wrong doers will only laugh and carry on, as they do now. Without the powers that the mods have, no true punishment can be given by the council. Not one that will actually make a difference.

[ttlanhil]

It cannot carry out a punishment that will be as effective as one that a mod could. You do not get the point ttlanhil. Yes it can post. It can talk, it can talk til it's blue in the face! The wrong doers will only laugh and carry on, as they do now. Without the powers that the mods have, no true punishment can be given by the council. Not one that will actually make a difference.

maybe I'm working on what ELLG had and not what this council plans. but either way, the council won't get any powers to deal with the official rule breaking... and that's not what it sounds like jeze is proposing. what the council can do is what players already do, just with more focus and direction

 

and that's a good thing in theory... in practice... I have doubts it will be fair and long lasting

[Guest Enyo]

QUOTE(Jezebelle @ Dec 4 2005, 11:19 AM)

 

 

And..to take it a step further..leaders who refuse to sit at a council meeting..can be adressed as 'outlaw guilds' and be facing the concequences[/color]

 

 

Its fun to be an outlaw somtimes, lol..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The "Republic of Plato" was more interesting than this extremely long and boring thread. One reply to muddywater.. YUK YUK YUK ...oh yeah, in case you don't understand.. YUK again to having an organized group called a "guild council". Ewwwwwwww and YUK.. Don't I sound intelligent? LoL ...

[sora_barzahd]

Maybe all of the guild leaders can make an alt on EL, get them a level 20 skill, and get them to join a guild council thingy. You can call it ~IA~ or Imperial Allies. All you need is someone with a level 40 skill and 30k *cough Jeze cough*

[Jezebelle]

As for this World having mods; not all is seen and punished or even punishable by them, as we all know. We try to be an addition to them.

 

Woah! This scares the crap out of me.

 

An addition to the mods? That is a bit vague and open ended. One of those statements that really is wide open and very dangerous. Do you believe there needs to be more mods? Different mods? Why does the guild Council need to be an addition to them?

 

And please, no "you don't understand" or "it didn't come out the way I meant it" - your signature of "*say what you mean and mean what you say*" suggests that you either should think before you type or you mean what you have said.

 

I had questions and concerns with structure before... but now... now your whole idea really begins to scare me.

 

I am sorry, I can and will not answer this post in public due to rule 26. If you want to discuss this with me, I suggest you talk to me ingame.

 

Jez

 

Another thought has come to mind...What about term limits for the guild council members. It is easy to vote on something when you are on a council because you know you have a say into the matters at hand and know that you will probably not have to live in the same conditions as the ones not with vote. If all have term limits, they may rethink their positions and do it in a community effort and not a "what's in it for me" effort. Just a thought.

 

 

Erm..I dont get it..can you explain that to me?

 

Jez

 

In the ages of Kings and power mongers, they lived by the golden rule "He who has the gold, makes the rules" and these people never considered living by the same rules as they dictated to others. They just protected what they felt they needed to keep the power. Term limits disrupt this idea, as after a time the ones dishing out the power, must step down and live with those not in power.

You REAP what You SOW: Life is like a boomerang. Our thoughts, deeds and words return to us sooner or later, with astounding accuracy. (Grant M. Bright)

Landlords, like all other men, love to reap where they never sowed. (Karl Marx)

 

Hope this explains further.

 

 

I hope I understood this correctly now. You are afraid that the Council will abuse the 'power'it may have? Or its members individualy?

 

If that was your concern, all i can say is that we expect a mature attitude of the Council Members.

And I know, some people with 'power' never mind with what power it is, get confused and lost, we can only hope and pray we will be able to set them straight again when it happens.

After all, we are after the same goal, help to make this World a litte better!

 

 

Jez

[Guest Enyo]

Jeze,

 

I think this is just a game.. yes there is a community here but this is going a little too far and people might need to spend a little less timing playing and participating in their real life communities and not try to complicate the game more than what it already is by taking the fun out of it. It would be FAR less fun with this organized goverment and politics which personally I loathe and I think from your comment of the guilds who didn't participate whould be outlaw guilds is very communistic sorry to say.. thats my opinion. BYE.

[Arnieman]

being that it is just as powerless as the rest of us in EL.

no it's not. it has the authority of the outlaws forum(and can cover the same grounds) with (theoretically) a lot more organisation and respect... and potential for abuse

Respectfully, ttlanhil, I have to disagree with you. I do not see how having an organization to cover what's already covered can have any benefit the rest of us can't.

 

As for the proposed duties that this council would have, I still feel that what we have in place is a better idea than trying to coerce all the guilds' leaders into one council to regulate everyone in EL. All the ideas I've seen are quite ambitious goals - already IMO better served apart from this council.

 

Furthermore, I still am asking what makes this ANY different from the ELLG (as ttlanhil mentioned), or any other past incarnation of this idea? Other than the promised determination of Jezebelle, I have seen nothing even remotely concrete to prove viability.

 

My final point is the one I find most concerning - that this would become in effect a "shadow government" over all guilds. As I see it, the guildmasters of established guilds are truly the masters of their guilds, and have set up their guilds with the leadership and policies that best fit each individual guild. With human nature being what it is, politics WILL come into play - and again, what I keep hearing from at least one person who has spoken, that will almost certainly be the case. From what I have heard, it would only be too easy for one guild to disagree with a policy and be forced to accept it or be branded "outlaw". What a way to promote unity.

[Ghrae]

As for this World having mods; not all is seen and punished or even punishable by them, as we all know. We try to be an addition to them.

 

Woah! This scares the crap out of me.

 

An addition to the mods? That is a bit vague and open ended. One of those statements that really is wide open and very dangerous. Do you believe there needs to be more mods? Different mods? Why does the guild Council need to be an addition to them?

 

And please, no "you don't understand" or "it didn't come out the way I meant it" - your signature of "*say what you mean and mean what you say*" suggests that you either should think before you type or you mean what you have said.

 

I had questions and concerns with structure before... but now... now your whole idea really begins to scare me.

 

I am sorry, I can and will not answer this post in public due to rule 26. If you want to discuss this with me, I suggest you talk to me ingame.

 

Jez

 

Here you have it folks... on one hand she mentions that she wants to augment the moderation of the game... and then on the other she is forced to silence because her comments would be counter to how the game is being run.

 

*say what you mean and mean what you say*

I guess what this really means is that she has the power of double speak.

 

I'm not going to sit here and preach that the mods are perfect or should be bowed down to or placed in a state of awe... but when the backer of a new organization can't even answer a direct question about the Council because answering would break the rules, you have to wonder who the Outlaw really is and what this Council will be used for. I know it springs up numerous questions for myself.

[Jezebelle]

[

 

I am sorry, I can and will not answer this post in public due to rule 26. If you want to discuss this with me, I suggest you talk to me ingame.

 

Jez

 

Here you have it folks... on one hand she mentions that she wants to augment the moderation of the game... and then on the other she is forced to silence because her comments would be counter to how the game is being run.

 

*say what you mean and mean what you say*

I guess what this really means is that she has the power of double speak.

 

I'm not going to sit here and preach that the mods are perfect or should be bowed down to or placed in a state of awe... but when the backer of a new organization can't even answer a direct question about the Council because answering would break the rules' date=' you have to wonder who the Outlaw really is and what this Council will be used for. I know it springs up numerous questions for myself.

[/quote]

 

 

Ghrae, I think you are trying to get me banned by provoking me to break #rule 26. Well, im not falling for it, sorry.

You should be glad the Council is going to assist the moderators in their hard job, they cannot be everywhere and do everything in game. The Council offers an addition to help, how bad is that?

 

Jez

Edited December 29, 2005 by Jezebelle

[Ghrae]

Rofl... no, I'm not trying to get you banned.

 

I am trying to understand the purpose of this council. And the posts in the last couple of days is beginning to paint quite the picture of hidden purposes and anti-moderation sentiments. Two things that I know guild CEL will not support.

 

And if you are worried that your comments will get you banned... then maybe you need to step in front of the mirror and ask yourself just why you have viewpoints that are bannable and why those viewpoints are in the same thread as the Council.