New Manufacturing System

[Aepox]

I like how things would be harder to make, moreadvanced with the bellows etc... however if this was implemented i think ALL objects should be sellable to stores. Working on something for like 10 mins and noone wants to buy, that just sucks

[jorgus]

One thing i have to say about... if there is something time critical in the game it may be a problem if u have slow/bad connection... resync, resync ... and you have spoiled the mega uber weapon... :-) There is no fun unless u are sitting on teh EL server :] And making this only on client side (no problems when u have bad connection) is a problem too since we have Open Source client.

 

So, maybe the problem is in other place?

I think there is no point in making manufacture more realistic when we have infinity ore supplys, flowers, etc.

 

There is no doubt the manu (and other skills too) should be changed becouse of lack of fun. But many ideas in this thread makes another game from EL.

I think Entropy may be angry again :-> becouse in the end EL will morph to EL2 which is under construction by him now :]

 

In the end... i personally like the idas of

1) Different quality of ingredients (maybe bars made from Nordcarn cave iron will be better than CC ?)

2) Maybe even a history and age of ingredients/products?

3) Monsters shouldn't drop useable things, maybe broken or just some rare ingredients?

4) Manu relays on alchemy and there is big place to change (in the name of more fun).

 

And there is last idea in my head. We have many different maps, beautifull places but to be honest there is no point to go in every hidden valley or mountain just becouse there is always ONE (well, two? three?) the best place to make/harvest your favourite flower/ore. Every n00b hear that if u want to make FE just go to VoTD, harvest roses on the cementary, snapdragons just after u cross the bridge and then go to CC to get sulphur. So, what are those beatyfull flowers, crystals for in othere places, nobody sees them, nobody goes there. Just a thought...

 

Regards,

[Dagar]

A little late posting to this thread but I want to express my aggreement with

what Lyanna said a while back about exp/time vs exp only rewarded on success. Realistically people learn by spending time working on something, even if they don't

at first succeed -- failure is part of learning. So, I'd suggest that whatever system

is adopted for exp, that exp be rewarded for DOING, not only succeeding, and that

exp is proportionate to time spent.

[makourain]

this idea is almost as bad as ents harvesting update.

not only will this make people quit the game, but it would also take even more fun out of the game.

but thats not my problem anymore coz im going to WoW now

[swisstest]

this idea is almost as bad as ents harvesting update.

not only will this make people quit the game, but it would also take even more fun out of the game.

but thats not my problem anymore coz im going to WoW now

If you are going to take the time to reply to a suggestion in a negative way, PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, make a usefull suggestion on why it wouldn't work or how it may be made better. It is after all a suggestion, suggestions are meant to be refined, saying that it sucks or that you don't like it will not in the least bit be helpful in shaping it into a feasible idea, suitable for the game.

 

Yes well, we surely do miss you... erm, you go have fun on bnet...

~E.S.

[Alastria]

That process sounds too complicated for newbs to understand. But adding more ingredients to the weapons and armor will achieve a balance in the produced goods.

Well, thing is, newbs won't be doing this sort of thing right away...you'll have to save up money to get ALL your tools and bars and essences, or spend the time to make the bars and essences, not to mention you need to read the necessary books to do all this...

 

By the time a "newb" gets to this point, they really won't be a newb anymore..

 

 

BTW, there does sound like there's a LOT to making these...lots of things you need to gather and get it ALL together...but it does sound like a bit more fun, even though I've never noticed anything being quite this complicated in any of my other MMORPG's...Yeah, RS, has the whole thing of being at a station to do this or that...and I found that to be kinda kewl...I think it's possibly a good thing that we're incorporating something like that now..

 

Besides, I believe running this route that we will no longer have to run to Tankel to fix our items...it sounds like we'd have a better chance of fixing them ourselves...and if we fail on something, it'd be more likely that it's our own fault because we didn't get the fire the right temperature

 

 

Is there any chance of a possible co-op with this? Someone can work the billows while the other person does the sword making? I know that guilds tend to help each other w/ some mass production....why not helping each other out to make swords and other items at the forge. Maybe something along the lines of an apprentice system...when a newbie wants to start getting into all of this, they have to find someone higher level in manufacturing than them to take them on as an apprentice...it's the only way they can get into this...it can possibly also add extra titles to our names...Master Alastria or Apprentice Alastria...things like that...to show what you're best at...Master Harvester (but we could turn it off, of course)...

 

Just a few thoughts..er..more than a few...

[Dimov]

with such a system , chain armor will be a pain to make. have you an idea how complicated it will be? 1 you have to reach a temperature to draw a wire. then you need something to cut pieces of the wire with an equal lenght, then something circular to twist the stuff properly, and loads of other. Oh and for crafting you'd have to spend a day chipping molds for rings , and fine tuning and stuff

[Roja]

hehe, don't worry..we plan to make the process much shorter than they would be irl

[HierosGamos]

idea, im too stoned to see if anyone already suggested this...

 

but what if the fire can be maintained by anyone while the weapons are maintained by anyone... or perhaps only one fire can be maintained by guild members and used by guild members... something that can bring team-work into this maybe?

[Dunian]

What about after each step, you get the changed item. Heres an example:

1. You heat a metal bar (Now the metal bar is removed, and a heated bar appears in your inventory)

2. You hammer the heated bar (After several times of this the heated bar dissapears and a dull blade appears in your inventory)

3. You sharpen the dull blade with a grind stone (The dull blade dissapears and a sharpened blade re-appears)

 

Each time you do this there is a chance of failing, which would ruin what you were makeing, but would grant you more exp. This is sorta like the old way, I admit, and not quite as realistic. But this might be easier for ppl who are visited by the grue (Just think of all the ppl huddled around the forges).

 

Dunian :battleaxe:

 

P.S. Will you redo alchemy too?

[DeathGuard]

Yes, I like Dunian's ideea. It's like in "Gothic" or "Gothic II". That system worked just fine ... we should keep it simple (not with temperature stuff and so on).

 

And I really think we need 2 types of bars. A long, thin type for swords and the bulky, small type we have now for axes and armor. I really don't know how you can make a sword out of a metal block.

 

(and, of course, I think we need more metal types like mythril and adamantinum)

[Scrambbller]

Dunian idea is cool,its exactly how swords are manufactured in the RPG Gothic 2,its will look more real like that

[lpm]

The systems sound too complicated.. and the temp thing will be hard to implement due lag if not imposible for those unlucky laggers.

I like the idea of making it a 3-7 steps thing adding the magic weapons try (with high lvl fail if you want).

 

I have a suggestion, why not use the knowlege tree (not the encyclopedia) to describe the process, it sounds logical that you have that info after you read the book and not before, and right now that item its almost useless.

[freeone3000]

Cept that you have to read the book in order to be physically able to make the item, other than that...

 

Dunian's idea's my favorite. Simple. Doesn't make me fail automatically just beacuse people decided to share.

[Grossbouff]

Its a fact that manufacturing is not rewarding enough: to reach a high lvl you has to spend much time and money to read and to improve manu lvl, and when you can make such things like steel shields you find nobody to buy them (no even a NPC).

I would agree to make manu harder, but at least at the end there MUST be a reward. The weapons and armours created MUST be sold at a high price.

And also, making a sword does not take 1 sec, even with a lot of experience. Making high level items should take time, just like reading books.

 

Grossbouff-Stephane

[gadai]

While I agree that the manufacturing systems as it stands is not particularly fun neither is armor or weapon manufacturing in real life (another ex-SCA armorer here). The fun is not within the manufacture (though one takes pride in the skill one brings to bear) but in the finished item. From that point of view it doesn't really matter what the manu system is.

 

As a suggestion though - it is very rare that in a botched attempt to make a weapon or armor that the components are wholy unusable afterwards. A lot more commonly you can deconstruct/reforge the peices and attempt once more. I would estimate that fewer the one in 10 swords blanks are so botched (with any degree of practice) that a skilled weaponsmith cannot repair and complete it (without the need to smelt and reforge the blank).

 

Similarly armor pieces - even the most complicated (articulated gauntlets, articulated knee/elbow pieces) are most often recoverable for a highly skilled armorer - irregardless of the mistakes his apprentices make.

 

So boiled down the points are:

 

1) The manu system is boring - but so can rl manufacturing so thats okay.

 

2) The 'dissappearing metal' phenomenon while making swords/armor is incorrect if we want to adopt a 'RL' view of martial equipment production. While the FE's/EFE/EWE are magical and I can understand them being 'spent' in even a failed attempt to make a metal item, there is no real rational for the same happening to the metal.

 

3) The idea of being able to produce weapon 'blanks' is one that I think is great (can't remember who suggested it first). This is both historically and 'RL' correct - two thumbs up!

 

Finally - a lot of people have linked high reward with manu - unfortunately, unless you attracted a rich sponsor/sponsors through your skill, most 'weapons makers' and 'armorers' were little more then blacksmiths with delusions of grandure and were not wealthy. I assume that the various NPC blacksmiths in the game must have powerful patrons to charge so far above the market prices for their wares

 

<EDIT>

 

As a final couple of thoughts:

 

Iron/Steel/Titanium smelting/molding should fall under Manufacturing not Alchemy (within the current system though in medievil time this was more commonly done at the mines themselves and pig iron shipped to blacksmiths/etc).

 

Similarly Silver/Gold bar production should fall under Crafting (same as above for the 'RL' system that was used).

 

</EDIT>

Edited August 2, 2005 by gadai

[rasberrybeard]

I know you said you wanted it more realistic, but if the system has worked for so long why change it? I like updates, but im a lil tired of things being harder after an update, or less usefull. But then i guess the player opinion isnt important as you will do what you want anyways. :-\ Persoanlly I say just keep what we got. but thats just my opinion.

[DeathGuard]

<EDIT>

 

As a final couple of thoughts:

 

Iron/Steel/Titanium smelting/molding should fall under Manufacturing not Alchemy (within the current system though in medievil time this was more commonly done at the mines themselves and pig iron shipped to blacksmiths/etc).

 

Similarly Silver/Gold bar production should fall under Crafting (same as above for the 'RL' system that was used).

 

</EDIT>

I don't think so. If a man is good at making swords out of iron bars it doesn't mean he can actually make the bars. And a crafter knows how to melt and pour the silver/gold into molds but he might not know how to make silver bars. This system is fine for the moment, no ajustments needed (well, probably the making time). But I really think Roja's new manu sys needs ajustments ... it's just too complicated ... I don't wanna see an iron sword 3k on the market.

[gadai]

A fair point Deathguard but my argument was that making bars is a lot more close related to Manufacturing and/or Crafting then Alchemy, which in my understanding was the original science and of course had it's lunatic fringe attempting to produce gold from other substances. Most of the scientists I know (including the geologists) don't have a clue either theoretically or practically how to produce iron from it's ore.

 

In the case of gold, producing relatively pure form gold from gold ore is ridiculously simple - probably the easiest metal to smelt/mold (to use our in game terminology).

[DeathGuard]

Yes, but still, making bars is associated more to Alchemy in my opinion. If it would change now It would leave most alchemists dead in the water since we all draw our XP mostly from titanium bars ...

[ttlanhil]

if blacksmiht prices ar adjusted and there's no more monster drops of gear... then fighters will have to pay what the manu-ers ask.

for stuff like iron swords, you want to make this really easy. for stuff like plate, you want it to be hard work and expensive. maybe that'd reduce then number of people who can get full plate after a couple of days in EL(that and required levels, but I digress)

initially i was against the idea... but... if it's done well (balance time, XP, work required for different items, etc) this could work well

[gadai]

Tbh I think that, no matter the system, manufacturing will probably be boring to a lesser or greater degree. The current system does not penalise for lagging or having to go afk (for whatever reason). I have no objections to a new system providing it does not penalise either of these or make it harder to level manufacturing then it already is. That is my greatest issue with the system Roja described as I understand it.

[LochnessLobster]

I would hope that a forge would be added near enough to the manu priest so as to be able to use it.

[Acelon]

There is one in his temple

[MoJo]

Sounds very nice RoJa I would like to see a few new swords if it isn't too much to ask i have some ideas for them. :axeman_rune: