Bot Source Code

[LabRat]

I have just been threatened with court action if I do not give a random player the code to my bots as the bot source is GPL.

 

As you can imagine I am royally pissed off about this and wish to clarify my standpoint, and explain my legal standpoint at the same time.

 

I will give the source code to my bots to 3 people and 3 people only - Radu, Learner and Aislinn - so they can verify that my source code does nothing untoward.

 

There will be no other issues of my bot source to anyone without a fee of GBP 5000.00 to cover potential loss of earnings as I charge for bot hosting.

 

From http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/g...rcePostedPublic

Does the GPL require that source code of modified versions be posted to the public?

The GPL does not require you to release your modified version. You are free to make modifications and use them privately, without ever releasing them. This applies to organizations (including companies), too; an organization can make a modified version and use it internally without ever releasing it outside the organization.

 

But if you release the modified version to the public in some way, the GPL requires you to make the modified source code available to the program's users, under the GPL.

 

Thus, the GPL gives permission to release the modified program in certain ways, and not in other ways; but the decision of whether to release it is up to you.

If I know someone has a copy of a GPL-covered program, can I demand he give me a copy?

No. The GPL gives him permission to make and redistribute copies of the program if he chooses to do so. He also has the right not to redistribute the program, if that is what he chooses.

Does the GPL allow me to sell copies of the program for money?

Yes, the GPL allows everyone to do this. The right to sell copies is part of the definition of free software. Except in one special situation, there is no limit on what price you can charge. (The one exception is the required written offer to provide source code that must accompany binary-only release.)

Does the GPL allow me to charge a fee for downloading the program from my site?

Yes. You can charge any fee you wish for distributing a copy of the program. If you distribute binaries by download, you must provide "equivalent access" to download the source—therefore, the fee to download source may not be greater than the fee to download the binary.

Now, should said random player choose to take it further he can feel free.

[kit_gw]

Wow, Labby I am so sorry you have to deal with this.. Totally unessesary. I think if people have to worry about things that involve an online game in this matter.. then maybe they need to turn off the computer and play Monopoly.

 

If you need anything Labby let me know I dont know much about programming but you can vent to me if you need to. Hugs!

[Ringil_Oddsocks]

I have just been threatened with court action if I do not give a random player the code to my bots as the bot source is GPL.

 

ROFL, Ignore him LabRat he has no idea what the GPL means.

[bkc56]

But if you release the modified version to the public in some way, the GPL requires you to make the modified source code available to the program's users, under the GPL.

This is the key part of most/all Open Source licenses. You are not forced to sell/give-away your program, but if you do provide binaries, you must also make the source available (for an optional fee).

 

This topic came up once before in the Bot Owners sub-forum: Bot code open source

 

The result was the same: the license does not require you to release your product, but if you do then there are some additional conditions on the sources.

Edited September 18, 2008 by bkc56

[DogBreath]

I'm replying to this post because indirectly I'm responsible for it.

 

While I must agree with your quotes on the GPL lisence and the spirit of GPL. I think you've avoided the spirit of the code given to you. The code you're clinging to is code you didn't invent. If there wasn't some nice person around who wrote that code and gave it to you for free, would you even have any code?

 

I think the point that you're losing business from your hosting service because you've given other people the code is just a horrible conclusion. You may very well be losing business, but I'm fairly sure the code you gave away (to me) isn't the cause. I personally believe it's your attitude and lack of commitment to the customer.

 

It's a fairly common practice for businesses to get fat and happy. Then some hungry person comes along and does their job better than they do and they get a cold splash of water on the face.

 

That being said, I'm not sure the person that gave away the code you're using for free (even if you modified it) really intended for someone to make the people who play this game pay to use it. I'm also not sure he intended for someone to make others feel it's too complicated for them to use on their own to assure they keep their business. And finally, I'm not so sure he intended for anyone to 'leech' off of people, using the code he wrote, to the point that they're grasping for an alternative.

 

Someone teaches you to fish for free and you charge starving people to learn the same skills (and take pot shots at the skills of people offering to teach them to fish for free...) Can you blame others for expecting you to give to them the same courtesy that was given to you? (free code -- free fishing lessons.)

 

All I can say is, you reap what you sow...

 

EDIT: http://forum.embril.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=145

Edited September 19, 2008 by DogBreath

[LabRat]

Sorry to burst your bubble dogbreath, but there has not been a mass exodus from my clients to your service. Only one bot owner has switched, indeed only yesterday I had a new bot owner come to me for advice and hosting.

 

Charging for bot hosting is not a new phenomenon and indeed has been going on for a long time. Servers are not free (although you running a few bots from your home PC can in no way be compared to running the number of bots and proxy client connections I have running on my dedicated server) which is why professionals such as myself and Learner do charge a nominal fee.

 

Receiving threats indirectly from you and your friends about court action does not make you a man. Doing it to my face and being told to "fsck off" was I believe the message I relayed through your intermediary would have been the adult thing to do.

 

My clients like my service because of my personal dedication - any issues at all are dealt with immediately if I am online (which is the vast majority of the time). I am also patient and will happily sit down and explain a feature in my code, or give lessons on using the bot functionality if an existing bot gets a new admin member.

 

I happily reap exactly what I sow which is why I have many friends both ingame and in real life, many of whom have become close friends because they found out how caring a person I am solely through the bots I host and the time I take to make their life easier.

 

When was the last time you took a player through the minefield that is becoming a new bot host, suggesting locations, explaining just why certain areas are out of bounds, helping them see exactly why they failed to get their bot in the first place, explaining what can and can't be done with bots, sharing moneymaking ideas, even helping with problems with teh g0d? For me as it happens only yesterday. This is the difference. I know and understand the rules - even the ones that contradict each other with regard to both players and bots and am happy to explain them to ensure a safe and happy bot owner. You just want bums on seats.

 

Bot owners (even ones that I do not host their bots) regularly come to me as an authority on bots to ask for my advice and guidance which I happily give. Bot developers with issues also regularly ask me questions regarding their source code which again I happily provide.

 

I go out of my way to help players. You just run a few bots on your home PC. There's the crucial difference.

 

I hope this thread finds you well.

[DogBreath]

I had nothing to do with any threat against you. I don't make threats and don't need anyone to do my work for me (you seem to be into the cheap shots, not me.) I only claimed to be responsible for you not wanting to release your code. You do whatever you want and cast dispersions wherever you'd like.

 

As far as servers go, I'd rather have a go cart that flies like a rocket ship than a rocket ship that barely works and keeps blowing up...

 

EDIT: no worries, I gave the guy looking for code a copy of mine and for those that need it, here it is:

http://forum.embril.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=145

 

As you've heard, it runs well on nearly any pc, so you don't really need some big server to use it have fun...

Edited September 19, 2008 by DogBreath

[LabRat]

Brb, grabbing my chatlog.

[13:30:59] [PM from circe: Greetings I have a msg for you from DragonCairn..'DC would greatly appreciate it if you could make your code available for DL & DC is more than....]

[13:32:22] [PM from circe: ...happy to GIVE server space if desired, he's heard complaints that your code is GPL based & that your not sharing, & one of the complainers...]

[13:32:57] [PM to circe: yup that's correct. I only have to give the code if I give the executable welcome to gpl]

[13:33:31] [PM from circe: lives in the UK & is wanting to start legal action, DC wants you to know that he's not sure why he is in the middle of this but has been asking...]

[13:33:41] [PM from circe: folks to be patient]

[13:34:32] [PM from circe: I will pass on your msg to DC, he just wanted to let you know of what was happening ]

[13:34:38] [PM to circe: I will happily give the code for a data transfer fee of shall we say $5000?]

[13:35:12] [PM from circe: I shall pass on ]

[13:38:16] [PM to circe: someone better go and review http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-violation.html]

[13:38:55] [PM to circe: I do not distribute the source or executable therefore no gpl violation is occuring]

[13:39:26] [PM from circe: I will let DC know so then he can pass on ]

[13:39:36] [PM to circe: ty]

[13:39:40] [PM from circe: yw ]

[13:40:50] [PM to circe: or try http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/g...rcePostedPublic]

[13:41:40] [PM to circe: and 2 below that]

[13:43:05] [PM from circe: ok ]

[13:47:32] [PM from circe: DC says Thankyou for the clarification & he hopes you are well ]

[14:01:05] [PM from circe: DC wanted you to know that he's not the 'fighter' in this, he's just passing mail to keep folks from fighting ]

[14:03:11] [PM to circe: lol let em at me (I just talked to gwood and put him straight about it). I have been a professional developer since 1994 and an amateur one since 1983.]

[14:06:54] [PM from circe: Well i hope it works out ok for you ]

[14:45:42] [PM to circe: the safest place for you would be right out of the equation, http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=45937 thanks for trying to help]

[14:46:53] [PM from circe: will pass on ]

[14:58:48] [PM from circe: DC Says, please try not to be upset, he's just the messenger & was sorry to be the bearer of bad news]

[15:00:05] [PM to circe: labrat tells circe to tell dc to tell said random player to go fsck himself]

[15:00:43] [PM from circe: lol, i will pass on to him ]

[15:00:54] [PM to circe: ty ]

[15:00:59] [PM from circe: yw ]

[15:01:56] [PM to circe: why do I feel like a 12 year old? "I fancy xyz, can you get abc to tell def to tell ghi to tell xyz I like them please"]

[15:03:38] [PM from circe: lol, Know what ya mean, this 'other' player obviously doesn't have to guts to speak to you himself]

 

Off topic - I just reviewed your codebase, I see a couple of new trivial features (storage trade and reserving items) but the vast majority of it is the code I sent you way back when. Most of it still refers to Agneum. Glad to see you still hammer the hosting mysql server, I fixed that issue a very long time ago. So much for your world-shattering changes.

Edited September 19, 2008 by LabRat

[DogBreath]

Wow, not sure those people would like to see you post their pms, but I honestly had nothing to do with that. I know who did initiate it, and gave him a copy, as I've stated.

 

Take all the pot shots you want at our community service, the code, the server, whatever... We really don't care what you think. Our track record speaks for itself.

[LabRat]

If Columba wants to take me to court let him. I will happily provide my address for him to serve me. I could do with the money I get from the counterclaim.

 

What? You're surprised I know who it was? I guess I pissed him off when he tried to opt out of my player online time page. Tell him to sue me for that too \o/

[DogBreath]

If Columba wants to take me to court let him. I will happily provide my address for him to serve me. I could do with the money I get from the counterclaim.

 

What? You're surprised I know who it was? I guess I pissed him off when he tried to opt out of my player online time page. Tell him to sue me for that too \o/

For the last time, I have nothing to do with anyone's claim/threat. If you want to tell someone something, feel free to do it yourself.

[LabRat]

Nowhere in that post did I say for you to pass a message to him. I just wanted to let him know that anonymity is not as good a protection as he hopes for. I am the one that has been threatened here, hence the original post. If you and your friends think that I am going to run and hide you had all better learn what happens to rats when they feel threatened.

[Ghrae]

This has gone far enough. The bots forum isn't here for you two to wage personal warfare over who's code is better or enter into threats and legal debates.