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Entropy

Mage class idea

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I have 88 Pick Points invested in will/reasoning at the moment. Magic level is pretty low at level 40

 

My a/d is pretty low at 48/55

 

Depending on whom I cast harm on and their attributes and the equipment they are wearing my harm ranges between 95-110 hit points.

 

Imo 40 pickpoints is to low, as for in Wizzy's case its a guaranteed 95-110 hit everytime, to me it would be like making a perk for fighters that made them hit for 100 dmg every time regardless of there opponents strength/armour etc. (which wouldnt be good)

 

If it was implemented as per the suggestion I would like to see the casting duration for harm/mana drain increased alot to reflect the strength of this perk (or the strength of the spells reduced) and maybe make non-multi maps actually non-multi.. you cant range at someone already engaged in combat on non-multi and this should be extended to spells

 

Edit: As for the bronze armour/warlock cape's, iirc Jaclaw did a test with and without them vs harm. and the differance was only like 13 less dmg. So they or new items would have to give atleast 30-50% magic resistance/protection to be any use at all.

 

I think maybe the perk would make a fighter/mage class more than just a pure mage class, unless the perk came with a limit on human nexus and hence armour/weapons that could be used

 

Not true, any fighter who wishes to train extra oa's and raise rationality can defend against harms, no?

 

Yeah plz make it and ruin PK...

 

If MI could be bypassable, noone would PK, i speak from experience, just think about it, I ll have 40 pp less, which i ll get them with negs (even ent said godless is n00b for fighters but if i get mage class i wont need to train) then i ll get almost maxed rationality. Even i will have low p/c, i ll just MD my opponent every 2 secs and i will never die...

Totally BAD idea IMO

-Kad

 

I totally agree with your points.

 

(or 1 second if you run circles around them while a guildie fights them...120 a/der+therm+constant 100 damages+never having mana=instant death hihi?)

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As you know, right now the mage class is pretty much identical to the fighter class, but magic is pretty useless except for invasions and for the restore spell.

Since most of the people use magic immunity in PK situations, offensive spells such as harm and poison are not very useful for PKing.

 

So here is my idea:

New perk, called "The Mage" or something like that.

It will cost ~40 PPs (yes, a lot), so those who take it will not be able to be good fighters (unless they are very, very, very rich IRL).

This perk would allow your spells to bypass the magic immunity, and possibly also give some magic bonus, such as half mana, etc.

For those who do not take the perk, nothing will change.

 

The details are not ironed out yet, so what I am asking for is some discussion on the subject (constructive stuff only), and I am especially looking for the PKers feedback (since it will be mostly for them).

 

 

-Maybe let posion stack?

Or a few more posion damage

So more ppl would use it

so its more usefull then imo :medieval:

Edited by Fryslan

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I have been thinking about this a little more

 

I really think the "click harm/button of death" perk is a little too powerfull as it would be too easy to be invisable and time things to one hit yeti farmers in hulda, or people that are fighting in kf or any multi map.

 

Maybe a medalion of remove immunity that would be a one time use like the heaven spawner med?

 

Or perhaps , since a mage really shouldnt need armors too often, a rare tailored item could give this perk. Very easy to break in melee combat?

 

Just a few more ideas to consider I guess

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Maybe this is too simple, but meh. I think a better idea would just be to change the magic immunity spell into one which gives an amount of magic protection dependant on the caster's magic level and Rationality. Decent 'Mages' would generally have higher rationality than fighters, so would be able to deal damage to them above what the resistance deducts. As well as wearing armor with magic protection, Fighters could take some rationality to give themselves increased protection from magic, but would then suffer from having less pickpoints to place in attributes that power up their physical attacks, whereas to mages putting points in rationality would be all important to increase the damage they can do (leaving them weaker in melee).

More variety in spells, and armor/equipment (magic robes instead of armor, that require magic nexus to wear?) that somehow boost magic effectiveness at the cost of melee effectiveness would also help the Mage become a class of it's own.

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Since most of the people use magic immunity in PK situations, offensive spells such as harm and poison are not very useful for PKing.

 

The details are not ironed out yet, so what I am asking for is some discussion on the subject (constructive stuff only), and I am especially looking for the PKers feedback (since it will be mostly for them).

to your first point, if you have any logs about it check them and see how many people i killed with harm. actually more then i killed with normal hits. (my harm is ~35 btw) when your opponent runs out of magic immunity you can MD him, harm him and use a damage ring and he's close to instant death.

to your second point, my oppinion about this is... well let's say it's not that good. i beg you not to fuck up PK, please.. just this single time. we already have to harvest endless hours to get ready for PK, and now we should be prepared to die 2 seconds after we enter an arena? thats lame imo.

 

If you take godless you have a big dissadvantage for a PKer.

If you take hellspawn, just getting to a PK map will suck :medieval:

most high level pkers have hellspawn, why should hellspawn be a problem if the only popular pk places are KF/NC/WSA/TD? 5 energy, 1 spirit and 1 matter essence and your problems are gone. about godless, your right not many people take it.

 

but all in all, i think having a way to reduce/break/bypass MI will definitly stop people from PKing. whatever chance there is, no1 wants to be killed in 2 seconds and i assure you this will NOT encourage people to go PK and lose rostos.

 

let's say your enemy has 350 health, which only VERY few people have. (i can think of 2 ppl atm)

if you cast harm before you enter the arena you can directly cast another harm, so that's already 240+ damage a second from a real mage, + damage ring + another harm and your enemy is dead for sure. that means a player with 70 magic and 40/40 r/w could easily kill anyone including toomass/luciferx etc etc. (wizzy has 110 harm with like 50 magic, imagine 70 or 80 please)

 

and what happened to the classless EL btw? not classless anymore? oO

 

 

EDIT: oh btw, for the people with 280 health (average pking health) 2 harms and a damage ring is enough. which means instant death before you can even try to restore.

Edited by Tempest

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Maybe this is too simple, but meh. I think a better idea would just be to change the magic immunity spell into one which gives an amount of magic protection dependant on the caster's magic level and Rationality. Decent 'Mages' would generally have higher rationality than fighters, so would be able to deal damage to them above what the resistance deducts. As well as wearing armor with magic protection, Fighters could take some rationality to give themselves increased protection from magic, but would then suffer from having less pickpoints to place in attributes that power up their physical attacks, whereas to mages putting points in rationality would be all important to increase the damage they can do (leaving them weaker in melee).

More variety in spells, and armor/equipment (magic robes instead of armor, that require magic nexus to wear?) that somehow boost magic effectiveness at the cost of melee effectiveness would also help the Mage become a class of it's own.

sorry for double posting but i have to comment this.

 

Decent Mages are actually mostly high level fighters, the most high lvl fighters have 48 rationality + ~16-24 will, and insane magic levels compared to non fighters. "Mages" will NEVER reach the strenght of "Pker-Mages".

As long as the attributes/cross attributes give the same advantage for fighters/mages there will never be a good working mage class.

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Since most of the people use magic immunity in PK situations, offensive spells such as harm and poison are not very useful for PKing.

 

The details are not ironed out yet, so what I am asking for is some discussion on the subject (constructive stuff only), and I am especially looking for the PKers feedback (since it will be mostly for them).

to your first point, if you have any logs about it check them and see how many people i killed with harm. actually more then i killed with normal hits. (my harm is ~35 btw) when your opponent runs out of magic immunity you can MD him, harm him and use a damage ring and he's close to instant death.

to your second point, my oppinion about this is... well let's say it's not that good. i beg you not to fuck up PK, please.. just this single time. we already have to harvest endless hours to get ready for PK, and now we should be prepared to die 2 seconds after we enter an arena? thats lame imo.

 

If you take godless you have a big dissadvantage for a PKer.

If you take hellspawn, just getting to a PK map will suck :D

most high level pkers have hellspawn, why should hellspawn be a problem if the only popular pk places are KF/NC/WSA/TD? 5 energy, 1 spirit and 1 matter essence and your problems are gone. about godless, your right not many people take it.

 

but all in all, i think having a way to reduce/break/bypass MI will definitly stop people from PKing. whatever chance there is, no1 wants to be killed in 2 seconds and i assure you this will NOT encourage people to go PK and lose rostos.

 

let's say your enemy has 350 health, which only VERY few people have. (i can think of 2 ppl atm)

if you cast harm before you enter the arena you can directly cast another harm, so that's already 240+ damage a second from a real mage, + damage ring + another harm and your enemy is dead for sure. that means a player with 70 magic and 40/40 r/w could easily kill anyone including toomass/luciferx etc etc. (wizzy has 110 harm with like 50 magic, imagine 70 or 80 please)

 

and what happened to the classless EL btw? not classless anymore? oO

 

 

EDIT: oh btw, for the people with 280 health (average pking health) 2 harms and a damage ring is enough. which means instant death before you can even try to restore.

 

I agree with Tempest here.

 

Tempest and I disagree about a "remove immnuity spell" but he is very correct in saying if there is a 100% bypass of immunity it is far too powerfull. With my magic level (which just turned 40) I have delt up to 110 damage / hit on top 100 pkers a/d charaters. Some top 10 players whom had quite high rationailty, and 80+ magic level. I could still deal up to 67 with warlock and bronze armor the damage was reduced to 53. This was without pots iirc. Some one with 48 rationailty, 75+ magic level and 100% bypass immunity perk would be a monster in pk.

 

Though I do belive there should be a spell to remove immunity, I dont think 100% bypass would be good for the game at the moment. But like I say, maybe if we had more information about the ways bronze/warlock/helms will increase protection.

 

Edit as things are in game at the moment, you would be surprised at the number of people that forget MI when they are in a pk map and not engaged in a fight. MI only works if you can remember to cast it ;)

Edited by Wizzy

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Decent Mages are actually mostly high level fighters, the most high lvl fighters have 48 rationality + ~16-24 will, and insane magic levels compared to non fighters. "Mages" will NEVER reach the strenght of "Pker-Mages".

As long as the attributes/cross attributes give the same advantage for fighters/mages there will never be a good working mage class.

 

For 48 rationality you'd need 48 will and 48 reasoning. So I'll assume you meant 48 Reasoning and 16~24 will, I suppose.

'NEVER' sounds a little bit strong here. You're saying it's impossible for someone to get a high magic level and OA 60?

Say if someone got 48 will and 20 reasoning (others at 4). That gives 130 health, 208 ethereal, rationality 34. And they'd be as good at magic as 'most high lvl fighters' if they are indeed as you say. Now if they can keep the battle at range, casting magic at the foe, they'd be on equal footing. And if they had a reasonable (less than 'high lvl') fighter with them to go and engage the enemy, they'd have a great advantage.

 

Now also bear in mind that not everyone has 48 rationality and 16~24 will and insane magic levels... Sure, those people with experienced characters and uber equipment will be just as overpowering as they are now. But i'm sure even a lesser 'pure' mage could do alright against slightly weaker opponents if he could just get past that immunity. There are new players in the game as well as old pros.

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Edit as things are in game at the moment, you would be surprised at the number of people that forget MI when they are in a pk map and not engaged in a fight. MI only works if you can remember to cast it ;)

hell yes there are lots :D

 

Decent Mages are actually mostly high level fighters, the most high lvl fighters have 48 rationality + ~16-24 will, and insane magic levels compared to non fighters. "Mages" will NEVER reach the strenght of "Pker-Mages".

As long as the attributes/cross attributes give the same advantage for fighters/mages there will never be a good working mage class.

 

For 48 rationality you'd need 48 will and 48 reasoning. So I'll assume you meant 48 Reasoning and 16~24 will, I suppose.

'NEVER' sounds a little bit strong here. You're saying it's impossible for someone to get a high magic level and OA 60?

Say if someone got 48 will and 20 reasoning (others at 4). That gives 130 health, 208 ethereal, rationality 34. And they'd be as good at magic as 'most high lvl fighters' if they are indeed as you say. Now if they can keep the battle at range, casting magic at the foe, they'd be on equal footing. And if they had a reasonable (less than 'high lvl') fighter with them to go and engage the enemy, they'd have a great advantage.

 

Now also bear in mind that not everyone has 48 rationality and 16~24 will and insane magic levels... Sure, those people with experienced characters and uber equipment will be just as overpowering as they are now. But i'm sure even a lesser 'pure' mage could do alright against slightly weaker opponents if he could just get past that immunity. There are new players in the game as well as old pros.

yes sorry meant reasoning. from your calculations i can see 44 pps in will, 16 in reasoning which is 60 oa. but you forgot to mention: 1)nexus. 2) phys/coord, no1 runs around with 80 emu. 3) the perk they will need to bypass immunity (+40).

now the calculation looks a bit different, lets say 20/20 p/c for a normal 400 emu (which should be nice for a mage imo)

16 + 16 + 44 + 16 + 5 (nexus for col/armor/whatever) + 40 = 137 overall. thats basicly impossible for a mage to get, but well.. if he gets it he can be sure he will be nearly unpwnable in PK due to his harms going through the immune.

(look at ambrosius for example (took him cuz he's watching this thread atm :P), he has full reasoning/20 will or so and could just smash your face if he removes other attributes to get the perk, he would be unbeatable.)

 

Ambro: 140's a/d + 48 reasoning = 100% hit rate and harming you for somethin like 100 while hitting your with orc slayer for another 70. instant death if you don't restore at 250 health since you can only restore every 2 seconds, and 2 seconds means 2 hits (120-140) + harm = 220-240 dmg

 

 

EDIT: oh, if he uses bronze sword + arrows on a good astro day that means ~360 damage in 2 seconds btw :)

Edited by Tempest

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In some other games (like Baldur's Gate, NWN) it is impossible to cast powerful spells in heavy armour. Maybe EL could use this idea as well…

 

Let's add negative modifiers proportional to armour's defense, so that casting efficient harm in something heavier then leather set would be virtually impossible. The modifiers could be also added to swords to encourage people to use staffs.

 

Another thing is adding cooldown (5-15 seconds) to both armour and weapons to prevent mages from switching to their close combat gear too fast . The cd would only start after you drag a piece of armour from your current inventory to your backpack (or whatever the name of the main inventory window is) or maybe even both ways.

 

What do you think?

Edited by Kwas

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Decent Mages are actually mostly high level fighters, the most high lvl fighters have 48 rationality + ~16-24 will, and insane magic levels compared to non fighters. "Mages" will NEVER reach the strenght of "Pker-Mages".

As long as the attributes/cross attributes give the same advantage for fighters/mages there will never be a good working mage class.

 

For 48 rationality you'd need 48 will and 48 reasoning. So I'll assume you meant 48 Reasoning and 16~24 will, I suppose.

'NEVER' sounds a little bit strong here. You're saying it's impossible for someone to get a high magic level and OA 60?

Say if someone got 48 will and 20 reasoning (others at 4). That gives 130 health, 208 ethereal, rationality 34. And they'd be as good at magic as 'most high lvl fighters' if they are indeed as you say. Now if they can keep the battle at range, casting magic at the foe, they'd be on equal footing. And if they had a reasonable (less than 'high lvl') fighter with them to go and engage the enemy, they'd have a great advantage.

 

Now also bear in mind that not everyone has 48 rationality and 16~24 will and insane magic levels... Sure, those people with experienced characters and uber equipment will be just as overpowering as they are now. But i'm sure even a lesser 'pure' mage could do alright against slightly weaker opponents if he could just get past that immunity. There are new players in the game as well as old pros.

 

Let me pwn you plz, I ll speak for myself.

 

Atm i got 20 rationality, 61 magic and 129 oa. Lets have a look at what my char could do.

I got only 3 negs atm which are anti,scotty and ph. i have 36/48 p/c and 24 vit.

 

I ll just take all neggies. Godless + hos + hellspawn + gelly bones + icd = 34pp, i ll remove just my 6 vitality and get mage class.

 

So, i wont be so low at attributes coz i ll boost them with negs and plus i ll have mage class. If i see someone in PK's, i ll just start MDing them in every 2 secs which i can drain up to 40ish, and when my mana is full, i ll just harm them back. I ll be still tough coz i have still high attributes.

 

And think about this, its my n00bish char, think about TooMass, he got +50 pp's with hydro nexus and +150 oa with +100 magic. Who will get him then?

 

My2liras,

-Kad

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yes we're all aware that it's too powerful, so instead of keep telling it just find some ideas plx

if what you said was true, ent wouldn't bother thinking about it.

i think the last thing he wants is to stop people from Pking.

and btw jac, if i had other ideas then not implementing something like this at all i would have posted, but sorry i dont have any :/

Edited by Tempest

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Why not replace the magic immunity spell by a spell that just like the magic protection spell would give magic protection but like + 50 magic protection (or whatever magic protection is needed to even make high magic/rationality players do almost no damage) and call it greater magic protection or smth.

 

When that spell is in effect even high lvl magic/rationality players can do very small harm/drain damage on you.

 

Then introduce a spell called reduce magic protection or smth that reduces magic protection by ~8. (and it stacks when recast).

 

Ppl can then lower other players magic protection and harm or drain for more points.

 

Ofcourse this would need to be tweaked etc. but it would give magic usage a boost ingame because even when smby has the "greater" magic protection spell running smby with a good mage build can still get at least some harm / drain damage in....and more when reduce magic protection is cast.

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yes sorry meant reasoning. from your calculations i can see 44 pps in will, 16 in reasoning which is 60 oa. but you forgot to mention: 1)nexus. 2) phys/coord, no1 runs around with 80 emu. 3) the perk they will need to bypass immunity (+40).

I was trying to argue, that by replacing magic immunity with a greater magic protection, the 40 pickpoint perk is unnecessary.

And the setup I described is extreme, yes, I imagine most people would put points into nexuses and other attributes too.

 

 

If i see someone in PK's, i ll just start MDing them in every 2 secs which i can drain up to 40ish, and when my mana is full, i ll just harm them back. I ll be still tough coz i have still high attributes.

Again, my suggestion was to replace magic immunity with a greater magic protection, which would reduce the amount you could mana drain and harm that target, so you may not necessarily be able to mana drain for 40 if your target had high resistance (it may be lowered to 30, or 6, or 0).

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the suggestion from ambro is probably the best i've heard till now.

wouldn't be too much of a disadvantage for anyone, but if i had to choose i would rather like to keep it as it is.

anyway i stick to "there will never be a real mage class until attributes dont affect fighters and mages together"

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the suggestion from ambro is probably the best i've heard till now.

wouldn't be too much of a disadvantage for anyone, but if i had to choose i would rather like to keep it as it is.

anyway i stick to "there will never be a real mage class until attributes dont affect fighters and mages together"

 

Well this way you can reduce the opponents magic protection and get a harm or drain in for good points.

The other person could ofcourse recast the "greater" magic protection and so on...

Will give the magic skill more meaning ingame.

 

example:

Greater magic protection 25 mana +60 protection

Normal magic protection 10 mana + 10 proctection

Reduce magic protection 10 mana - 15 protection

 

You've got Greater magic protection running.

Then your opponent casts reduce magic protection on you...you can either counter it by casting magic protection (but still end up with 5 lower magic protection) or just leave it...or just recast Greater magic protection again when your opponent casts another reduce magic protection on you. This would bring some strategy into play...risk getting harmed / drained for more or use more mana and recast magic protection / Greater magic protection again.

Edited by Ambrosius

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Personally The only way I could see a Perk idea being fairly done is to also make other class perks ie: Fighter perks. Ranger perks etc

The more choices players have the less Standard the char build becomes:

 

Example Class Perks (examples so dont flame on the stats lol)

 

Mage Perk ( cost 30 pp )

 

Possitive Effects

 

Half mana used for spell casting

 

40% chance to bypass opponents MI

 

+5% magic xp

 

+5% Magic dmg Inflicted

 

-5% Magic dmg Taken

 

+5% Magic Resistance and protection

 

Glow In The Dark Perk

 

Neg Effects

 

Restricted to Human nexus 4

 

Cannot worship Att/def gods

 

+5% Physical dmg

 

I cant Dance Perk

 

Fighter Perk (cost 30pp)

 

Positive Effects

 

25% chance to bypass opponents armour (as per bp )

 

+5% Att xp

 

+5% phys dmg inflicted

 

-5% phys dmg taken

 

Evanescence perk

 

Neg Effects

 

Restricted to magic nexus 4 ( spells would need to be changed to need magic nexus)

 

+5% magic dmg taken

 

-5% magic restistance/protection

 

Cannot worship Magic god

 

 

 

 

If you wanted to go further the perks could increase the caps of certain atrributes while reducing the caps in others

Edited by conavar

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I don't know what to think about this. Secondly it's good idea, because everyone couldn't cast MI breaking spell, but it would make mages really strong. At least there should be change to block the MI breaking for example with high magic protection. Like if u have 0 mag protection, mage will break your MI surely (if his spell success). Then maybe something like 15 or 20 mag protection, the change would be like 50 % to break MI etc. That would give more role to mag protection too. And if MI breaking spell takes f.e. 80 mana, mage would have just 1 or 2 times to try it, so he have to flee if the spell doesnt work at first time.

 

But still it would be too powerful, if group of mages would ally and then they all casts MI breaking spell... They would easily break MI and then harm poor pker to death.

 

And I don't think the perk should half mana. Conversely mana needed to harm should be increased a bit and maybe raise the level to cast it.

 

I hope u use time to plan the spell and tell players what u are planning, before implementing it, Ent.

 

Oh u were talking that mages could bybass your MI without casting any spell... That would really be too powerfull. It should be spell that u can get by taking the perk.

Edited by Miiks

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The way I see it is that if perks like this are introduced then EL is no longer a classless game. By taking this 1 perk you are essentially choosing the mage "class".

 

I've had a thought about this, and a simple way of doing it without many major game changes and leaving the rough class definitions that currently exist in EL would be to use magic nexus as others have suggested.

 

My proposal is:

 

1. Introduce MI removal spell which uses somewhere between 50 and 80 mana at a time to cast. If the spell is unsuccessful then mana is still subtracted but if successful your opponent cannot cast MI again for some length of time (maybe dependent on casters and tagets rat and mag lvl)

 

2. Make the chance of the MI removal spell succeeding based on the magic nexus using some simple formula like "magic nexus * 2 = % chance of MI removal". Obviously the formula could be tweaked, possibly to something less linear with greater bonuses for higher nexus. 100% chance of removal at 50 mag nexus is reasonable imo.

 

This way you still keep the classless feel of EL and also allow mages to spend thenir pp's differently to a fighter who cannot afford to spend a lot of pp's on magic nexus. Also, some fighters may opt to have a few magic nexus as well and it allows for much more flexible build possibilities than an "on/off mage perk".

 

 

Alternative to 1 & 2: While writing this I also thought of an alternative method. Use the same mana/casting requirements as the above but make it a spell that affects the caster instead of the target. So if you cast "magic immunity penetrator" or whatever it could be called you have the ability to blast through mag immunity for a period of time based on your mag and rat. Again, success of the spell could be based on magic nexus and even if unsuccessful mana is still deducted. If there is a window for abuse of this spell by standing outside PK areas until you have successfully cast it then make it only castable in PK areas.

 

I really hope we don't get a perk using huge amounts of pp's to define a class ingame, it really would create too much of a fixed class system of either mage or fighter. With one of the suggestions above and also a number of other suggestions that have been offered in the topic you could keep the possibility of many diverse builds at the same time as allowing a pure mage build if people so wish.

 

EDIT: A quick addition to prevent abuse... If the alternate method was used then casting the "magic immunity penetrator" spell would have to take you out of invisibility.

Edited by FatboyJaxx

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Why not replace the magic immunity spell by a spell that just like the magic protection spell would give magic protection but like + 50 magic protection (or whatever magic protection is needed to even make high magic/rationality players do almost no damage) and call it greater magic protection or smth.

 

Because many other things depend on magic resistence, such as the spells of the animals, the special weapons and armor, etc.

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Let me try this as a suggestion

 

Remove Magic Immunity Spell

 

Reagents 1 Enriched Air Essence 1 E Magic Essence

 

Magic level required 70

 

Mana subtracted 75

 

Spell removes Magic immunity for 5 to 10 seconds based on rationailty/magic level equation?

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Alternative to 1 & 2: While writing this I also thought of an alternative method. Use the same mana/casting requirements as the above but make it a spell that affects the caster instead of the target. So if you cast "magic immunity penetrator" or whatever it could be called you have the ability to blast through mag immunity for a period of time based on your mag and rat. Again, success of the spell could be based on magic nexus and even if unsuccessful mana is still deducted. If there is a window for abuse of this spell by standing outside PK areas until you have successfully cast it then make it only castable in PK areas.

 

I really hope we don't get a perk using huge amounts of pp's to define a class ingame, it really would create too much of a fixed class system of either mage or fighter. With one of the suggestions above and also a number of other suggestions that have been offered in the topic you could keep the possibility of many diverse builds at the same time as allowing a pure mage build if people so wish.

 

EDIT: A quick addition to prevent abuse... If the alternate method was used then casting the "magic immunity penetrator" spell would have to take you out of invisibility.

 

Your alternative option is too powerfull.

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