Magic - a new outlook

[piffy]

Rather than this business of preparing spells etc etc etc wat about this that i have experienced in a different game.

 

U have sigils... so make a system where u buy (or find) sigils and put them in a wand, which must be worn as a weapon.

 

This way u have the choice of magic OR sword rather than both, and wat quite possibly leads to the development of mages as well as fighters.

 

but if u make someone hold a wand and let them cast as much as they can then that is better than allowing both to happen at same time...

this could also be more useful in longrun depending wat other things develop, eg u could have a mage good at healing (ie high level using health sigil = heals A LOT of hp) who is backign up someone fighting like 5 goblins, healing him so he can keep fighting - u get the idea.

 

Wat du all think?

 

Piffy

[crusadingknight]

it seems over-complicated...what if you die? And it would be almost like a permanent class. Currently sigils are forever, because a sigil IS NOT A ITEM, and we appear to like it that way, but that is only my opinion

 

:wink:

[sander]

It's a bad idea but that's no reason to shout about it CruesadingKnight.

 

Okay, why is it a bad idea:

 

1) The current magic system is great. I don't want any mages casting spells in combat with wands and stuff. Why?

 

1a) magic is, wel.... magical! Something special. Not something that comes in wands and stuff like a gun with ammo in it. That will make is just another combat variety.

 

1b) Magic is supposed to be difficult. Currently it is. Restockable wands make it waaaay to easy.

 

2) With your idea you cannot have warriormages, warlocks and all that. And really a warriormage is the coolest thing around (Gandalf from LotR is a warriormage. Casting spells (but not in combat!) and weilding this huge sword like a pro.

[Entropy]

Wow, Sander, yuo are the only one that thinks like me, everyone else thinks that people should be able to cast spells in combat.

Which would really suck, since people would eb able to teleport out of combat, etc. "in real life" people need time to focus to cast a spell, you can't just do it when you fight... You need concentration.

[duran]

well one could exuse the fact that one cant teleport while in combat with the fact that it take more effort then stuffing some erngy into your enemy.

 

oh with the idea of being able to prepare a spell beforehand one could say that you cant prepare teleport spells. problem solved and people on both side is happy.

 

no need for all or nothing tactics...

 

allso, gandalf did use magic in combat. it just wasnt direct damage. he used it to hamper the enemy and boost the moral of friends.

 

and with the current spells that one have access to there is very little change of a lowlevel mage takeing out a highlevel warrior as you will run out of essences or etheral points before the warrior runs out of hitpoints.

 

if you want entropy you could make it harder for someone to cast magic with armor on body and/or weapons in hand (except gloves perhaps).

 

99% of the games out there does not make a mage a powerhouse from the get go (atleast not the smart ones). a d&d wizard will not survive a straight up fight with a warrior without smart use of not only direct damage spells and defense spells but allso spells that will make it harder for the warrior to see, hear, move and god knows what else. and when having that many diffrent spells ready the wizard cant have a endless number of combat spells ready. the reason for this is that d&d wizard readys spells at the start of the day. and when those are out then you cant cast any more until he have had 8 hours of sleep.

 

so how about this. the wizard can ready 1 spell for incombat casting byt casting it beforehand but delaying the effect. not this can maybe be expanded by expensive rings and/or amulets that allow for 1 more spell to be stored pr item. that will require the dedicated wizard to sacrefice armor and attack power for the ability to access spells while in combat.

 

as you can see the best way to palance something out is to make a option not only give you a positive modefier but allso make it harder to do something else, thereby the player must make a choice...

[Guest]

you can also cast spells right before combat, get a shield up, poison them, harm them, drain life, and then fight. And afterward heal yourself with a nice restoration spell. K its kinda hard to do that many spells before the other attacks you, but you can always throw in one.

[duran]

the fact is, the second you do a damage spell on some animal or other your in combat, so 3 attack spells right now cant be done.

 

i wish there was more hamper and help spells so that you could cast one on yourself to get better attacks, on the enemy to make it harder for him to hit and/or easyer for you and so on.

 

right now you have more help with a good load of potions then going with magic as potions not only can modify most of this but can allso be used while in combat. in fact you could say that drinking a potion in combat is as hard as casting a spell as you have to get the caqp of it, and get most if not all the fluid into your mouth, all this while someone is trying to kill you...

[Guest]

good point, then we shouldn't be able to drink potions during a fight either. Than there is also no more reason to not stack the health potions in inventory. Finally i could be able to drag my 300 health potions with me in the goblin cave

[sander]

by Duran

allso, gandalf did use magic in combat. it just wasnt direct damage. he used it to hamper the enemy and boost the moral of friends.

Never. Boosting the morale was no spell. Gandalf is a living icon and hero. That's inspiring. Just as Aragorn is inspiring when he convinces Theoden and his cavalry to ride out into a sea of uruk-hai. Gandalf never uses a spell in combat. He does use some just before combat though (at the final battle on pelenor fields). Most of the time Gandalf doesn't even use magic. 90% of what he does is just being smart and having *very* good timing (like with the rising sun at the battle of helms deep).

 

I can partially agree with being able to prepare one spell and use it in combat. I can see the reason. It's difficult for an EL mage if your not able to do it. But I think there's a far better fix for it, and you suggested it yourself:

 

Attacking an enemy with a spell should not lock you into combat so you will be able to cast a few more spells before the enemy reaches you. That's a far better option than casting spells in combat.

 

If you want to be a great mage, look again at gandalf. Be a great fighter and be intelligent. A wizard is 99% intelligence and wisdom and 1% spells. Much like AD&D in fact. In AD&D you get so few spellcasts that you have to use them very intelligently in order not to get killed by the first thing you meet. And when you start you get like 1-2 casts per day only. Gandalf is high and mighty because he is feared and respected throughout middle earth. He is wise, he knows almost everything and he is always at the right place in the right time. He knows the right people. He knows how to avoid or solve problems. Most of his spells don't even do anything but just put more fear in the enemy and boost peoples morale by awe and respect.

 

EDIT: Look once more at Gandalf. What makes him powerfull? He's never alone. A mage cannot really survive on it's own. The same goes for EL. Join a group of fighters. Hamper their enemies and boost the fighters powers. Give them answers to everything they ask (IE: get to know EL top to bottom and back again). Lead them.

 

Also, I think that the Guest has a very good point. No potion drinking in combat. I would like to see that. And I do think that you should be able to stack potions if you cannot fight and drink anymore.

[duran]

read the book or just watched the movies? the thing about gandalf and magic is that he is damn skilled at hideing what is what so to keep the enemy (and allys to) guessing.

 

oh and im starting to read your post in a sarcastic light as you cant be serious when supporting the potion thing...

 

i just wish entropy had put in that paralyze spell he was talking about as then you could toss that at the enemy and follow up with other spells. but watch out if you dont kill your enemy before the effect runs out...

 

how about a small mod to the precast system, when you set up the spells you can access them again and again douring combat, but only those you set up. and teleport spells cant be set up, periode. want to break out of combat you will have to flee like everyone else. and if you run out of etheral points or essences and you cant access the spell(s) useing it.

 

oh and the casting of spells should never be automatic, but if your fighting some monster and cast harm it should automaticly go for your opponent. (knowing entropy right it does 1-5 damage at best, have yet to test it).

 

but still it should be only one spell that you can have ready as precast, unless you fork out for a medalion or some ring that enable you to have a extra one (at say 1000+ platinum maybe?)...

 

man i wish that entropy could make people gang up on a enemy. and monsters should be able to gang up on you to. if so the outgoing attack should be random so that a monster fighting more then one will select at random who it attacks (same with chars fighting more then one monster). that way if a mosnter goes for me rahter then the "warrior" he can still help while i try to break of combat...

 

one other thing that could help would be to slow down combat so one have time to think. least funny thing i see is health going from 100% to 5% in less then 30sec. the time it takes to get inventory up (not to forget that it have a bad habbit of hideing the action) and click on a potion or anything similar makes combat deadly, very deadly. hey, toss in a quick action "belt" where one can stuff comon items one wants to use. (hmm, why does this sound more and more like diablo 2 or arcanum in real time mode?)

 

ok, rant mode off (shit, i think its stuck )

[sander]

read the book or just watched the movies? the thing about gandalf and magic is that he is damn skilled at hideing what is what so to keep the enemy (and allys to) guessing.

watched the movies about 8 times (Felowship and two towers). Read the books about 12 times. 4 times in dutch, 8 times in english. read the hobbit 10 times (of which 3 times in dutch). read the silmarillion 3 times (once in dutch, twice in english). I know the books and movies almost by heart

 

oh and im starting to read your post in a sarcastic light as you cant be serious when supporting the potion thing...

Actually, I was being dead serious about that one. It makes perfect sense to me. Up until a week ago I didn't even know it was possible to use potions in combat. Granted though, if potion drinking during combat is no longer allowed, fleeing should be easier...

 

how about a small mod to the precast system, when you set up the spells you can access them again and again douring combat, but only those you set up. and teleport spells cant be set up, periode. want to break out of combat you will have to flee like everyone else. and if you run out of etheral points or essences and you cant access the spell(s) useing it.

If I understand your idea well, that would be even worse than a precast system. With a precast system you can do only 1 cast in combat. If I understand this idea of yours then you can cast 1 spell as many times as you want (or have etheral points) in combat. That makes it exactly the kind on "gun with ammo" that I don't like about magic.

 

man i wish that entropy could make people gang up on a enemy. and monsters should be able to gang up on you to. if so the outgoing attack should be random so that a monster fighting more then one will select at random who it attacks (same with chars fighting more then one monster). that way if a mosnter goes for me rahter then the "warrior" he can still help while i try to break of combat...

This would definately help yes. Even better: If more then two people are fighting a monster (say, you and a fighter against an orc) it should be easier to flee. You run while he fighter keeps the monster busy and off your back.

 

one other thing that could help would be to slow down combat so one have time to think. least funny thing i see is health going from 100% to 5% in less then 30sec. the time it takes to get inventory up (not to forget that it have a bad habbit of hideing the action) and click on a potion or anything similar makes combat deadly, very deadly. hey, toss in a quick action "belt" where one can stuff comon items one wants to use. (hmm, why does this sound more and more like diablo 2 or arcanum in real time mode?)

Well.... You know my opinion about this. No potions during combat. So a "quick access belt" would definately be out of the question As you said, too much Diablo style. And Diablo is an action adventure. EL is an RPG. Those are two very different genres.

[crusadingknight]

ok guys, here's MY opinion:

 

1. I would like combat slowed down, but maybe only by 50%...So you can have a strategy.

 

2.Preparing spells, well, you all know my opinion on this...I said it first.

 

3.Neither of you ARE Gandalf, so forget him.

 

4.And getting rid of potions: Remember we are trying to ENCOURAGE combat, not discourage it...I will probably make a post about that in the future.

 

5.Rapid-fire spell idea: Maybe a little overboard..you need limitation other than how many essences you can carry.

[Killerlamb]

Heh, j00 guys would love marrowind, we should rip off that game! I'm buying it soon, there are so many fucking spells!!Anyways, I may not be Gandolf, but I made my char to look alot like him

[duran]

as it is right now your more powerful with a inventory full of potions then a head full of spells. this is not good at all...

 

given the way entropy seems to want magic i wonder why he bothers at all. why not just remove magic totaly and rahter go for alchemy 100%?

 

if i can only cast 1 spell in combat then i would like that only one potion can be used in combat.

 

diablo2 is a rpg, but a rpg light. a action adventure = games like full throttle, grim fandango and similar.

 

how about this:

when you pass 2 times the level of the spell you can access it in combat. the mental work to trigger the spell have become second nature to you.

[Killerlamb]

This game is EXACTLY like diablo. Add bows and running and you have pretty much have Diablo 2 online (with shitty spells and annoying nooblets)

[duran]

and i fear that its what you get when you mix real time and rpg

[Killerlamb]

Heh, I feel dransik had an awesome magic system. STOP DELETING MY FUCKING POST MOTHER FUCKERS

[sander]

1. I would like combat slowed down, but maybe only by 50%...So you can have a strategy.

That would work yes. But it's really only usefull when it's possible to to attack monsters with more than one player. Then you could help eacother out with tactics. Take turns. Cover someone else while that person tries rto flee, etcetera. On the other hand, combar isn't really thát fast right now. Maybe only the recovery time should be made longer (that is, the time it takes you to get fighting again after you have been hit).

 

3.Neither of you ARE Gandalf, so forget him.

Gandalf is the archmage. The first real mage to ever be invented. Later on, magic has been abused a lot as a 'gun with ammo' but basically it all started with Gandalf. I think that Entropy has been inspired by this original archform of magic and tried to implement this into the game. I fully support his views. I agree that there are things that could be changed about the magic system, but the proposals I heard so far are all aimed in the wrong direction. Everybody wants a more 'diablo' like magic system. Diablo is the 'gun with ammo' style. I would like to hear suggestions to improve the magic system in such a way that it closer resemples the archform of magic.

 

4.And getting rid of potions: Remember we are trying to ENCOURAGE combat, not discourage it...I will probably make a post about that in the future.

Getting rid of potions will not discourage combat in itself. It will only discourage the type of combat where you attack creatures too powerfull for you, just because you have a large stack of potions. Getting rid of potions will make combat more intelligent and also encourage group combat (when you can attack creatures with more players). You can cover eachothers backs. You fight while your partner retreats to drink a potion. Then he charges again and you can retreat to drink a potion. It will also increase the power of mages since a mage on the sideline can heal you while you fight. More power to the mages whitout a single change to the magic system

[Nidan]

How about this: You can cast spells in combat, but when you cast one it takes 3 seconds, so you miss 3 potential hits on your enemy. Also the failing chance should be increased for spells cast in combat. In this way you can cast spells in combat, but only very few.

The only thing that has to be changed is for spells to take some time to be cast. Right now i can get up 5 shields in a second (they dont stack, so no problem about that really), or cast 5 harms in a second (which is bad ofcourse)

Its sort of a hybrid idea of what i heard in this thread.

[duran]

sander, i dont like your idea about increasing recoverytime after being hit as that will realy increase the lethality of the game as the first one that gets a hit on his enemy most likely wins as the other one will be recovering while you get a new swing.

 

when i say to slow combat down i mean the general fequency of attacks should be lowerd. so instead of punch, punch, punch you get punch, wait, punch. that way a person can read his health and take appropriate actions, be that trying to flee, grab a potions or whatever other options he have.

 

as for the potion belt or whatever you want to call it, i only asked for it as right now when i bring up the inventory screen it covers most of the area and most likely is covering the action. most of the time the potions are a bit down on the screen so if i drag the window down to look at the action i have to drag it back up and then click a potion. in that time i risk being killed with the current fight speed. if i could hit a potion on a "belt" it would help a lot in reaction speed. allso remeber that in diablo 2 you could at any time run away, not so here as the time it takes to check for a flee atempt will give the enemy one more swing atleast.

 

and you will not get away from the feel of magic as guns and ammo as long as there is numbers saying that there is limits on your use of magic.

[piffy]

KIllerlamb, this WAS dransiks magic system, i think itd be great here, i just explained it badly. why dont u try

[sander]

sander, i dont like your idea about increasing recoverytime after being hit as that will realy increase the lethality of the game as the first one that gets a hit on his enemy most likely wins as the other one will be recovering while you get a new swing.

Agreed. I didn't spot that when I said that. Anyway, If Roja's suggestion of weapon class gets through, maybe we can vary attack speed by weapon time (bludgeon slow, staffs fast, swords normal, etcetera). Then use the current speed as the 'fast' setting and make the other weapons slower.

as for the potion belt or whatever you want to call it, i only asked for it as right now when i bring up the inventory screen it covers most of the area and most likely is covering the action... in that time i risk being killed with the current fight speed.

And rightly so. It's pretty bad for your health to go snooping around in your inventory bag when someone is trying to make sihs-kebab from you. You're lucky that the back of the inventory is partially transparent so that you are not fully covered.

and you will not get away from the feel of magic as guns and ammo as long as there is numbers saying that there is limits on your use of magic.

It can be done. With a properly though-up and implemented magic system. The system is pretty good as it is so far, but there are still many improvements possible. I would like to see more spells to help EL mages become the all-seeing all-knowing mage that is the archmage type I described earlier. Example: A 'scrying' spell that enables a mage to scroll around the map for 10 seconds without his mage moving. That would give him the ability to see what is going on 30 meters away. He could see where the goblins are, if there are gargoyles at the dock, etcetera.

[duran]

and knowing entropy it will cost as mutch as the more powerful teleport spell

 

ok so how about this. you can keep a number of spells precast euqal to your magic level divided by 10? so on level 10 you can keep 1 spell precast (as in essence cost and etherl points drained, effect dealyed), on level 20 you have 2 and so on. and maybe let some items extend this by 1 pr item. yes, the item will cost a arm and a leg. a highlevel wizard will be powerful with this setup and rightfully so...

 

on top of that i feel we need a greater heal magic as there are none that match the body restoration potion. hmm, maybe a very high level one that have cost in etheral points equal to your would and will let your health slowly grow back...

 

hmm, how about a spell that will repel hostiles for a time, so that you can keep them at range? could work nicely to keep a wizard alive whole walking tru some areas. high level, and hope that no monster is around when the spell drops

 

as for that potions thing. allow me to have maybe 3 potions ready. past those 3 i must hit the inventory. i will have to make sure that they are stacked there myself.realtime more or less require you to have quick actionsfor combat actions. unless you have something like in FF (pre FFX) where there is times where there is lot of actions and then a hold up periode that you can use to get a fast overlook of your status. and plan your next move...

[sander]

Well, I still don't like the precast and quick-potions idea. But I'm sure that a good solution somewhere can be found. I think that currently magic fails in two parts:

 

1) The Archmage type is essentially a figher (look at Gandalf with Glamding). But instead of having very high combat skills, he gains these abilities from his magic. So I think EL needs spells that boost the mages combat abilites.

 

2) The Archmage type is essentially a helper too. There are few real helper spells now. Basically, an Archage doesn't go out alone (unless he has to) but travels with a party of other people. The archmage is a supporting role. We need more supporting spells and possibilities. Once again, you meet here the problem that there are few parties in EL. Most people are loners because you can gain more XP when you are alone (impossible to mob up on a strong monster).

 

But these two ideas I do really like:

on top of that i feel we need a greater heal magic as there are none that match the body restoration potion. hmm, maybe a very high level one that have cost in etheral points equal to your would and will let your health slowly grow back...

 

hmm, how about a spell that will repel hostiles for a time, so that you can keep them at range? could work nicely to keep a wizard alive whole walking tru some areas. high level, and hope that no monster is around when the spell drops

Those would greatly benefin the mage as a supporter role.

[Nidan]

on top of that i feel we need a greater heal magic as there are none that match the body restoration potion. hmm, maybe a very high level one that have cost in etheral points equal to your would and will let your health slowly grow back...

 

We already have an extremely powerful heal spell: Restoration. It restores ALL of your lost health. Much better than the potion i would say. You need lvl 21 for it, so not impossible

It would be nice however to be able to heal others in this same way. (On second thought, i think you meant this) Today i tried to heal someone, but i only gives 5 points back. (was a long time i forgot it sucked so much) This is nice to heal some noobs (no wait they have mor ethan 5 hp now), but to heal a veteran you need way more.