Some Thoughts On A New System

[Kami]

Ok. After finding that no one seams to agree with any suggestion I’ve ever had to try to improve any of the current systems, I started thinking about more in-depth changes to the entire game system and I’ve had an Idea. Ever since then, I’ve been thinking about this idea constantly for months now and now I think I’ve gotten it worked out thoroughly (with some dead-ends) and after Malaclypse has opened the door (mind you, I'm not trying to compete with you. Just having my say), I’ve augmented my idea and decided to post it. I know that almost no player playing the game right now will like this idea, seeing as it would completely change the game around so would require a complete restart but no one really does like the big changes and I feel that this new system would give this game just the thing to help it balance out. Now, I’m sure someone has had to have thought of an idea like this at one point but I am unaware if it was previously suggested, although I don’t know way that was. (Keep in mine, much of this text has been typed and retyped for a while now so their my be some inconsistencies and oddly misplaced thoughts.)

 

Part one (Skills):

My idea would basically rewrite the complete Skills system we currently have. First, change all of the current skills such as Attack, Defense, Harvesting, Etc. into separate “Skill Fields†(individual categories), under which more specific Skills are listed (possibly in a Drop down Menu.) Instead of Each player training general Skills such as Harvesting as one skill and have that one skill determine all actions based on the player’s level, that player would instead have to train separate skills under that Field. If a player wants to Mine Ore, that player must train in “Miningâ€, one of several sub-skills of Harvesting. (I understand that this aspect is somewhat similar to a few other games but it is generally different in nature as well as the additional suggestions will separate it entirely from any other. Also, it would help to improve the game’s interface and Menus. ) In addition, I can imagine expanding many skills to include yet all new skills, such as Weapon Skills.

 

An Example of how it might look (Incomplete):

SKILLS:

Combat:

. Fisticuffs

. Staff Weapons

. Swordsmanship

. Archery/Ranged Weapons

. Blunt-Force Weapons

Harvesting:

. Herbalism

. Mining

. Digging?

Alchemy

. Metallurgy

Potions

Magic

. Spellcasting

. Enchanting

. Summoning

Manufacturing

. Leatherwork

. Metalsmithing

. Woodworking

Crafting

. Gem cutting/Embedding

. Sculpting/Ringsmithing

People Skills (Note: Most of this was brainstorming. Somethings I just threw in while I may have forgotten much)

 

With these new Skills and Sub-skills, each player can have a much wider variety of options and the game can have much more depth. For example, Instead of having a Player train only in Attack and Defense, a player would now train only in the Tactics that player employs in battles. If a Player has a Sword equipped, that player will train in Swordsmanship. The more Swordsmanship skill that player knows, the better in battle he/she is with that sword but if that player decides to exchange that sword for an Axe, that player must now train with that Axe. After all, every Weapon is different. Just because you know how to effectively Swing one sharp piece of metal doesn’t mean you’ll be good at swinging a completely different one. It’s the same way with fighting unarmed as well. You can train fighting Hand-to-Hand but that doesn’t mean you’ll be just as good with a weapon without the training.

 

In addition, Adding new Skills will also apply many different Factors into everyday Life. A player with a higher Herbalism Skill would know more about Flowers and Nature so that player can pick flowers more successfully and with less Retribution from Mother Nature as well as. Also, Having many skills can apply more “Cross-Skills†in which a player will require both Experience in Leatherworking and Metalworking to manufacture a Leather Armor.

 

 

 

Part Two (more of an Addendum to Part one):

This one’s simple and I’m sure someone suggested it before but I’m going into it again. Player’s shouldn’t be able to start off knowing how to do everything right off. Most basic general knowledge is fine but some things need to be first learnt and then applied. For example: Currently, it you want to mine Ore you’ll first have to read the required books. That I agree with but instead of just making it “possible†to mine the ore, The Book “Ore Mining should give the player the “Mining†Skill. Then, players should then start earning Experience in Mining, not just in “Harvesting.†So basically, Players should have to need the required skill to do something and then expanded on that skill by training in it. To learn such skills, they can read a book about OR They can have a NPC teach it to them (Possibly as a Quest even).

Edited December 30, 2004 by Kami

[freeone3000]

Yes, it sounds VERY good. Very nice.

I know it was a brainstorm, but could you please add "essences" under alchemy and "healing" and "increases" under potions?

[Malaclypse]

Hello Kami,

 

some nice ideas, indeed

 

I think that players should have to learn the skills in some way before they can use it. That is, they should have to learn, using your examples, either swordsmanship and blunt-force weapons before they can try to fight with a sword or axe. Once they have the knowledge of a particular skill, further advancement will go through the usual process, that is gaining experience by using the skill. As for the cross-skills you mentioned the players will then need the knowledge of both skills to be able to use the cross-skill.

Somehow this would be the application of part II to part I.

[Kami]

Yes, it sounds VERY good. Very nice.

I know it was a brainstorm, but could you please add "essences" under alchemy and "healing" and "increases" under potions?

Oh yes. Essences too. I Forgot to write that because I was trying to think of a better name for the "Process" (Or Skill) of making Essences. I mean other then "Alchemy" itself. Haven't thought of one.

 

But Healing and Increases under Potions? I don't see where your going with that. Wouldn't then be something more along the lines of "Magic"? Actually, I've aways personally believed "Potions" was in itself a Cross Skill of Magic and Alchemy, but that's just me.

 

Mostly, I was thinking that most potion making would require Cross-Skills to be able to make certain given Potions, such as requiring a High Herbalism Skill in order to successfully mix Potions that require Flowers (still, just a thought even though it's not normally that complecated).

 

Also, I'm thinking many of these skills might need to be Mixed and Matched from what they are currently.

 

 

Anyway, Thanks for the Positive Feed-back.

[freeone3000]

I said "increases" and "healing" beacuse there are 2 types of potions. Those that give you a bonus when using (such as +5 will or +5 reasoning), and there are some that restore things (like +50 mana or +5 health).

[Kami]

Oh, I see. Well, I can understand the use of seperating the two for balancng reasons but doesn't do much for the Role-play/Believiblity factor. I mean, Once you know the Recipe for the Potion, Understand the Nature of the Ingredients, and How to mix the Potion, it doesn't make much since in not receiving the same Experince because of what they do.

 

Oh well, I'll worry about that later.

[Daxon]

Ok. After finding that no one seams to agree with any suggestion I’ve ever had to try to improve any of the current systems, I started thinking about more in-depth changes to the entire game system and I’ve had an Idea. Ever since then, I’ve been thinking about this idea constantly for months now and now I think I’ve gotten it worked out thoroughly (with some dead-ends) and after Malaclypse has opened the door (mind you, I'm not trying to compete with you. Just having my say), I’ve augmented my idea and decided to post it. I know that almost no player playing the game right now will like this idea, seeing as it would completely change the game around so would require a complete restart but no one really does like the big changes and I feel that this new system would give this game just the thing to help it balance out. Now, I’m sure someone has had to have thought of an idea like this at one point but I am unaware if it was previously suggested, although I don’t know way that was. (Keep in mine, much of this text has been typed and retyped for a while now so their my be some inconsistencies and oddly misplaced thoughts.)

 

Part one (Skills):

My idea would basically rewrite the complete Skills system we currently have. First, change all of the current skills such as Attack, Defense, Harvesting, Etc. into separate “Skill Fields†(individual categories), under which more specific Skills are listed (possibly in a Drop down Menu.) Instead of Each player training general Skills such as Harvesting as one skill and have that one skill determine all actions based on the player’s level, that player would instead have to train separate skills under that Field. If a player wants to Mine Ore, that player must train in “Miningâ€, one of several sub-skills of Harvesting. (I understand that this aspect is somewhat similar to a few other games but it is generally different in nature as well as the additional suggestions will separate it entirely from any other. Also, it would help to improve the game’s interface and Menus. ) In addition, I can imagine expanding many skills to include yet all new skills, such as Weapon Skills.

 

An Example of how it might look (Incomplete):

SKILLS:

Combat:

. Fisticuffs

. Staff Weapons

. Swordsmanship

. Archery/Ranged Weapons

. Blunt-Force Weapons

Harvesting:

. Herbalism

. Mining

. Digging?

Alchemy

. Metallurgy

Potions

Magic

. Spellcasting

. Enchanting

. Summoning

Manufacturing

. Leatherwork

. Metalsmithing

. Woodworking

Crafting

. Gem cutting/Embedding

. Sculpting/Ringsmithing

People Skills (Note: Most of this was brainstorming. Somethings I just threw in while I may have forgotten much)

 

With these new Skills and Sub-skills, each player can have a much wider variety of options and the game can have much more depth. For example, Instead of having a Player train only in Attack and Defense, a player would now train only in the Tactics that player employs in battles. If a Player has a Sword equipped, that player will train in Swordsmanship. The more Swordsmanship skill that player knows, the better in battle he/she is with that sword but if that player decides to exchange that sword for an Axe, that player must now train with that Axe. After all, every Weapon is different. Just because you know how to effectively Swing one sharp piece of metal doesn’t mean you’ll be good at swinging a completely different one. It’s the same way with fighting unarmed as well. You can train fighting Hand-to-Hand but that doesn’t mean you’ll be just as good with a weapon without the training.

 

In addition, Adding new Skills will also apply many different Factors into everyday Life. A player with a higher Herbalism Skill would know more about Flowers and Nature so that player can pick flowers more successfully and with less Retribution from Mother Nature as well as. Also, Having many skills can apply more “Cross-Skills†in which a player will require both Experience in Leatherworking and Metalworking to manufacture a Leather Armor.

 

 

 

Part Two (more of an Addendum to Part one):

This one’s simple and I’m sure someone suggested it before but I’m going into it again. Player’s shouldn’t be able to start off knowing how to do everything right off. Most basic general knowledge is fine but some things need to be first learnt and then applied. For example: Currently, it you want to mine Ore you’ll first have to read the required books. That I agree with but instead of just making it “possible†to mine the ore, The Book “Ore Mining should give the player the “Mining†Skill. Then, players should then start earning Experience in Mining, not just in “Harvesting.†So basically, Players should have to need the required skill to do something and then expanded on that skill by training in it. To learn such skills, they can read a book about OR They can have a NPC teach it to them (Possibly as a Quest even).

I'm always for an idea to rebalance a system to make it more deep, but there's just one question: how will the experience continue to balance out? Like for fighting, you'd have:

 

Combat:

.    Fisticuffs

.    Staff Weapons

.    Swordsmanship

.    Archery/Ranged Weapons

.    Blunt-Force Weapons

 

So would you have to train 5 times as much to get them all to the same level, or would you get 5x as much experience for one thing so it would all even out? (Think of training one skill and getting 50,000 experience per hour. Then think about having to train all five for an hour and getting 10,000 each? Just seems to either make or break the system in my opinion).

 

Hope you can understand what I just typed: I'm dead tired.

[Kami]

So would you have to train 5 times as much to get them all to the same level, or would you get 5x as much experience for one thing so it would all even out?  (Think of training one skill and getting 50,000 experience per hour.  Then think about having to train all five for an hour and getting 10,000 each?  Just seems to either make or break the system in my opinion).

 

Hope you can understand what I just typed:  I'm dead tired. 

Well, the general Idea was to make it harder in nature but more importantly I was trying to actually accomplish many things:

 

First, I trying to create a System where a Player can't "Train" their Stats easily just by doing the same thing over and over again. Such as Now, if you want to Train to be a Great Fighter, what you do is Don as much Armor as you can and just stand there letting monsters hit at you! This isn't believable and it's also a very Cheap way to Train. What I wanted to do is make players work for their Stats a little harder, and getting as much as they put in.

 

Second, I wanted to give players the Options of playing with and Mastering their Favorite Weapon (....... Pause for the Random Sexual Joke to pass!)

Anyway, Yes. If you wanted to Train in all different Weapon Skills, you could do that but don't think that it'll be easy! Right now, there are several different weapons in the game (and So many Players are crying out of even more) but only about half of them are being used! It's just so much easier for players to Train barehanded while gathering enough money to buy a Serpent Sword and Titan Armor, then use them to become the Uber Fighter of all time (an exaggeration of course but you get my drift) with only the current Nexus System to slow them down and that isn't that hard to get by.

 

 

In this way, a player can start off Bare-Knuckle Fighting like normal and still Gain Experience from it. Players can still gain Experience for normal Fisticuffs as well as for their Overall scores (I was also thinking maybe each Skill Category can also have an "Overall" Experience level for .... something (It's just a thought). Then, when a player chooses a weapon to use, that player must learn to use that weapon with little or no help from their Time Training in Fisticuffs. Of course, this may be difficult and might hold some players back but it's only normal, right? Boxing and Fencing are completely different. Someone who is a Master in one art may completely lost when faced with learning a new one and thus must start anew. But you'll still Keep the Experience from your previous Training. You just can't use it towards your new skill.

 

 

Another Reason I wanted it like this was to Add more Quests into the game. Unlike certain other Skills like Mining and Alchemy, you can't very easily just learn it from reading a book. Players should have to start off knowing only the most basic Knowledge (in the case of Fighting; Fisticuffs) and must find Experts to Train you in other Fighting Techniques and after reading Malaclypse's ideas yesterday, I'm thinking our two ideas can work very well together (though I may have to make some concessions on my ideas if everything is to be made easier to understand.)

Edited January 2, 2005 by Kami

[Nidan]

looks very good, but a similar system (just as complex and well worked out) was proposed a year ago. Unfortunately it was rejected/never heard from again.

[Malaclypse]

I thought on defense and gaining defense experience when reading this thread again.

 

Assuming the fighting system would be changed according your ideas, have you thought of how to handle defense experience? Currently a player gains attack and defense experience for fighting. Introducing different weapon categories, which I really would like to see, there would be the need to split attack experience, so the player will gain experience only for the currently chosen weapon. But what should happen with def xp?

 

I can think of a system, where gaining def xp would be based on the weapon used. Some weapons are better used to defend yourself than others. For example, it's way much harder to defend yourself against an opponent that carries a weapon (lets say for example an axe) with a knife, than if you would use a helberd.

 

Another way I can think of, would be to make def experience solely based on the armor worn.

 

Any other ideas?

[Placid]

I think your ideas are outstanding. They are thorough and they actually make sense. A change like this would obviously need a restart, but it would be well worth it. Perhaps this could be an idea for the P2P skills?

 

However, you must bare in mind that, all skills are undertaking a revamp (see the pinned thread above), and will therefore have many changes.

 

Otherwise, nice ideas!

[Platyna]

Kami: Before posting suggestions I suggest you to read input at...you know where, because your ideas

are disrupting the system that is currently being worked on. For example magic will never include

summoning, because if you'll think a little deeper about it you will reach a conculsion that doesn't fit there,

combat is ok; what are blunt-force weapons? Mining AND digging - can you show me a difference

between mining and diging? Because I see none. Alchemy includes only metallurgy, but what with

essences? Where it will belong to? Crafting skill AFAIK is being renamed to Jewelry skill, and crafting will

be something different, which I agree with because I am not a crafter, I am a jeweller. ;-)

My two cents.

 

Regards.

Edited January 5, 2005 by Platyna

[Kami]

Thanks Placid.

 

And Malaclypse, Well I guess that would depend greatly on how Def Exp would be calculated. Honestly, I'm not much of Math person so this actually Stumped me as well. I can only offer my perspective on how I Remember other games do it.

 

In Classic RPGs, there was no such thing as "Defence Exp Levels." There were only two deteremining Values that covered a Player's Defences: Defence and Protection. Defence was the equation that deteremined whether or not your character could dodge a hit (E.g. His Agility and SKill) and was factored mostly by your Stats and Protection was the equation determined the amount of damage your character would take from a successful hit and was factored by the amount of Armor he was wearing plus his own Toughness. In Most Classic RPGs, a player doesn't gain Exp in Defence but rather relys on his Armor to protect him, His Agility to dodge an opponent's Stike, his own Skill to Parry and Block his opponent's Strike and his Toughness to withstand the blow from an oppponent's hit. Added to that the occational Magic and Learned Skills that also augment those two Vaules, A Player's over all Defence never increased by Experince.

 

But in EL, there is now the addition value of Defence Exp Levels which now greatly calculates most Defencive Actions a player takes. Personally, I'm not sure about this factor in general, mostly cause I can't do the math in my head if I can't see the numbers, but it could just be because I perfer the old classic RPG style games.

 

Like I said, I'm stumped on this one. If you could expand of your idea, I think you have a good start in the Defence Leveling is necassary for the game.

 

 

teh banned 0n3na, Mind you I Posted this first before I even had another place to post so I had no intention to disrupt current ideas, only to and to the Suggestion Forum. Also, Like I said, much of this was brainstorming. Somethings I just added for the hell of it while others were intented to give leyway to advance my idea a little futher. Like Digging was just a new possible skill of harvesting that didn't involve direct Mining, such as Digging in the ground with a Shovel. Sure, maybe it not a worthwhile skill but I just needed another skill to add there. Again, I don't mean to say this is how it SHOULD be but this is the Suggestion forum afterall.

 

P.s. maybe you should have PMed that to me? More decorum.

Edited January 5, 2005 by Kami

[I_am_Spock]

Kami: Before posting suggestions I suggest you to read input at...you know where, because your ideas

are disrupting the system that is currently being worked on. For example magic will never include

summoning, because if you'll think a little deeper about it you will reach a conculsion that doesn't fit there,

combat is ok; what are blunt-force weapons? Mining AND digging - can you show me a difference

between mining and diging? Because I see none. Alchemy includes only metallurgy, but what with

essences? Where it will belong to? Crafting skill AFAIK is being renamed to Jewelry skill, and crafting will

be something different, which I agree with because I am not a crafter, I am a jeweller. ;-)

My two cents.

 

Regards.

wow something negative comnig from your mouth i didn't see that coming did i.

[Placid]

Kami: Before posting suggestions I suggest you to read input at...you know where, because your ideas

are disrupting the system that is currently being worked on. For example magic will never include

summoning, because if you'll think a little deeper about it you will reach a conculsion that doesn't fit there,

combat is ok; what are blunt-force weapons? Mining AND digging - can you show me a difference

between mining and diging? Because I see none. Alchemy includes only metallurgy, but what with

essences? Where it will belong to? Crafting skill AFAIK is being renamed to Jewelry skill, and crafting will

be something different, which I agree with because I am not a crafter, I am a jeweller. ;-)

My two cents.

 

Regards.

Difference between mining and digging? HUGE!

 

Mining:

mine

n.

 

1)An excavation in the earth from which ore or minerals can be extracted.

2)The site of such an excavation, with its surface buildings, elevator shafts, and equipment.

3)A deposit of ore or minerals in the earth or on its surface.

 

Digging:

dig

v. dug, (dg) dig·ging, digs

v. tr.

1)To break up, turn over, or remove (earth or sand, for example), as with a shovel, spade, or snout, or with claws, paws or hands.

 

2)To make or form by removing earth or other material: dig a trench; dug my way out of the snow.

 

3)To prepare (soil) by loosening or cultivating.

 

4)To obtain or unearth by digging: dig coal out of a seam; dug potatoes from a field.

To obtain or find by an action similar to digging: dug a dollar out of his pocket; dug the puck out of the corner.

Therefore, mining is the action of acquiring ores (such as silver or iron) or minerals (such as quartz) from a source; using equipment such as a Pickaxe.

 

Digging is the action of aquiring flowers or vegetables for example.

 

He obviously missed out essences, and with this addition to Alchemy in his suggestion, I see this as a fit replacement.

 

Your comment on Summoning not in magic is completely obsolete. IF YOU actually think about it a little deeper, how else would you summon? by magic!??? Oh look, there you go. I think it honestly does fit there, and his suggestions are oustanding.

Edited January 6, 2005 by Placid

[Daxon]

what are blunt-force weapons?

Weapons that are considered blunt force are polearms, maces, hammers, and maybe axes in a modified state. Blunt force is basically a weapon for smashing, not cutting. In some cases, it can be very, very deadly compared to a sword.

[Kami]

what are blunt-force weapons?

Weapons that are considered blunt force are polearms, maces, hammers, and maybe axes in a modified state. Blunt force is basically a weapon for smashing, not cutting. In some cases, it can be very, very deadly compared to a sword.

Aye, That's basicly what I meant.

 

But actually, Pole-Arms is a different Genre of Classification in of itself. It Includes weapons like Pikes, Spears, Halbeards, Etc.

 

Blunt-Force weapons are Anything that you'll Bash your opponent's Skull open with. Crude compared to Most weapons but they are effective.

 

Also, I wasn't actually sure of exactly what to name the Classification of Axe besides "Axes" so I kind of just threw them in with Blunt-Force weapons, although in all rights, they aren't in the slightest bit the same. Axe often don't get the same respect as other weapons.