Combat Exp-New Approach

[Pb_Zeppelin]

When people engage in combat..they get an amount of exp, not changing with lvl of skill.

Maybe with like an exponential modifier or something(tryin ta sound like a geek ) people could get more exp based on either damage,taken for def and damage done for attack.

A formula for this might be D^2/10 where D is damage..so if you do 12 damage, you get 12^2/10 exp for attack, so it would be 14.4 in this case.

doing 20 damage would get you 40exp and so on...

 

People may then use this as an advantage, like killing rabbits, which have almost no defence, to get high attack exp..well, maybe a limiter on monster class could be made too, like a max of 10 exp for a rabbit..20 for a deer..40 for a goblin, etc...

 

This would be cool because having a sword would earn you exp, istead of losing it

[sander]

Hmm... I don't know if and how your formula exactly works (sounds complicated and i'm tired ) but the principle idea behind it is OK I think.

 

To me it's a bit weird too that you get more XP by running around naked killing things. Partly I understands, but it makes using weapons and armor quite pointless when you reach a certain level.

 

I know of another, simpler way to solve this for attack and combat, but my idea still doesn't fix the defense stat. So I keep my idea to myself for now and post it later when I have thought about it a bit better.

 

But overall, I would like to see the current system modified so that armor and weapons don't have such a negative impact on your XP. I mean, nowadays a lot of players run around naked and arm theirselves with pickaxes because that's the worst possible way they can fight (thus gain the most XP. Pickaxes actually lower your stats).

[Entropy]

With our current system, you get exp only if you fight monsters close to your level (or higher).

So, if you are really 1337, and you fight a rabbit, you'll get little or no exp.

Also, the thing is, if you fight with a poor weapon (such as the pickax) it's normal to gain more exp. Don't you think you get more practice if you fight bare handed, or with an inconvenient weapon, rather than using a tactical weapon, such as a nuke?

[Hadiak]

ent: u plan to add NUKE? wow

[Entropy]

If for me, yeah, that would be lovely

[Roja]

Well..fighting with weapons can be almost as hard as fighting with your barehands..it depends on what you train on.

 

I think a way to solve this might be to have skill levels depending on what type of weapon you're using? So your exp would go up in that skill level, and perhaps there would also be an overall combat level..you would gain a little in that level no matter what weapon you had.

 

1.barehands

2.swords

3.polearms

4.bows/long range weapons

5.blunt weapons

[Velocet]

I agree with Roja. Have individual weapon skills, that can be raised with the use of each weapon. What would be even better, is to define the sword class into subgroups, like two handed, shortsword, longsword, rapier, dagger. Staff weapons like quarter staff, long staff, titanium staff, etc. And blunt weapons like axe, pickaxe, hammer, club, stick, etc. Of course this would mean we need more weapons, which imho, we should have. I mean when this game gets further along and more people join, they are going to want even a cheap weapon fairly early on. I think every newbie we get everyday freaks out when they hear how much the cheapest sword costs as of right now. I have been harvesting cactus for awhile and still haven't raised 30K, I'm lvl 7 combat and still don't own a sword. No big deal to me really, but newbies will soon bitch about raising 7 or more lvls in combat and still not own a sword.

[Roja]

blunt weapons mean something without a sharp edge

 

(staves, mallets, etc)

[Pb_Zeppelin]

hell yeah, rojas idea rules, weapon proficiencies

[sander]

Yeah, I also agree with Roja. Weapon classes would be good. However, you would still see people using the worst weapon n a given class to gain more XP.

 

by Entropy

Also, the thing is, if you fight with a poor weapon (such as the pickax) it's normal to gain more exp. Don't you think you get more practice if you fight bare handed, or with an inconvenient weapon, rather than using a tactical weapon, such as a nuke?

Bad example. Lets rephrase.

 

- Do you think you would get more practice by using a difficult high level weapon (such as a two-handed sword) then by using a simple weapon (like a short sword or gloves)?

- Do you think you get better practice if you manage to make such an excellent hit that you chop off his head in a single blow or if you make multiple weak blow that do little damage?

- Do you thing you get good practice by using a non-weapon as a weapon or will that just teach you to fight in a wrong way?

[Nidan]

soon we'll have as many stats as Morrowind...

How about this: you only get experience after you killed a creature. Each creature has an experience value. Bad thing is that you dont gain experience when you get killed by the creature, or that you could easily kill a half dead monster.

 

It would solve this however:

I am really doing a great job dodging all the attacks from my opponent and get no defence skill because it didnt hit me...

I am really getting my ass kicked, not able to block a single attack from my opponent and i get lots of defence experience...

Doesnt seem right.

[sander]

soon we'll have as many stats as Morrowind...

How about this: you only get experience after you killed a creature. Each creature has an experience value. Bad thing is that you dont gain experience when you get killed by the creature, or that you could easily kill a half dead monster.

That bad thing is easily fixed. Just give out XP per hitpoint of damage you do, instead of only at the full kill. Example: A fox gives 10 XP per hitpoint. If you kill half a fox, you just get 250 XP. If you kill a healthy fox, you get 500. Doesn't matter if you kill it in one blow with a big-ass weapon or if you give him 20 punches in the face. You still get 500 XP.

 

It would solve this however:

I am really doing a great job dodging all the attacks from my opponent and get no defence skill because it didnt hit me...

I am really getting my ass kicked, not able to block a single attack from my opponent and i get lots of defence experience...

Doesnt seem right.

Agreed. This needs solving. I still haven't come up with a proper way though, but i'll think of something.

[piffy]

I know how to solve this.

 

1) take roja's idea and implement different weapon classes each with its own exp, that way u can choose wat sort of weapon u want to use and have it so a certain amount of damage.

 

(next point is key)

 

2) give each creature or monster a set amount of exp, say for example the number of hit points it has. any player can get anything upto the max exp for that creature by killing it. so a rabbit... if it has 10 hp then any player can get 10 exp for it (in whatever skill they use)

 

3)each weapons class can then vary between damage dealt and speed and accuracy, for example a war axe might deal 20-40 damage but be slow and less accurate than a dagger, which mite deal 5-10 damage but very quickly and accurately. This then leaves it open to each individual player what he or she prefers.

 

this does involve a lot more weapons (and armour like in morrowind if u wanna go there) but that only adds to the games playability as it means there is more to achieve!!!!

 

summary tho is each animal has a certain no. of hp, this is the max exp u can get from it, andu can get it however u choose, armed or not. using a heavier weapon will do more damage quicker but has a lower chance of hitting, lighter weapon less damage but faster and more accurate.

 

that makes it all down to each individual player.

 

Piffy!

[Nidan]

That bad thing is easily fixed. Just give out XP per hitpoint of damage you do, instead of only at the full kill. Example: A fox gives 10 XP per hitpoint. If you kill half a fox, you just get 250 XP. If you kill a healthy fox, you get 500. Doesn't matter if you kill it in one blow with a big-ass weapon or if you give him 20 punches in the face. You still get 500 XP.

 

To solve the defense thingy how bout this: Each creature has a max amount of defense experience you can get from it, but for every damage you get from the creature, that amount will be substracted from the number.

to continue sanders example: A fox gives 500 defense experience, but it hits you for 8 points, then you would get 492 defence experience. You will also get the 500 attack experience from the damage you did. And the combat experience will be the average of the two: 496

(i think these numbers should be a bit lower btw, just to continue sanders example)

 

I mean this would make good sense, you practice your defense on lower creatures than yourself, because you can actually dodge those.

 

You might even wanna get negative experience from fighting an orc at lvl 10, but i wont drag it that far

[sander]

(next point is key)

 

2) give each creature or monster a set amount of exp, say for example the number of hit points it has.  any player can get anything upto the max exp for that creature by killing it. so a rabbit... if it has 10 hp then any player can get 10 exp for it (in whatever skill they use)

Basically, that is what I suggested as well. I only added a bit about 1 hitpoint being 1 or more XP. Else a fox would give only 25 XP and a deer wuld be 50 XP. You need to be able to set how many XP you get per hitpoint, per creature (so a fox gives you more XP then a deer. That is the right way).

 

To solve the defense thingy how bout this: Each creature has a max amount of defense experience you can get from it, but for every damage you get from the creature, that amount will be substracted from the number.  

That sounds nice, but there is one problem with it. The more armour you wear, the more XP you get (because more arour = less damage). Somehow we need to take the armor out of defense XP. Armour doesn't help you learning how to defend any faster or slower. Sadly, I don't know how armour is currently implemented.

 

Does anyone know how armour works? If I put on a chainmail shirt, does my defense skill go up? Or do I get less damage if I get hit? How does it work now? The I can figure out how to get armor away from defense XP.

[duran]

the armor absorbs damage...

 

hmm...

 

how about this, when combat ends (even if its when you die or flee) the amount of exp given is a % of the total exp you can get from a beast equal to the % of damage you did to him. so if you kill him you get the same amount no matter what you used, but only hurt him and flee and you get the exp for how mutch damage you did.

 

same can be done with defense but here its calculated based on how mutch damage the beast does to you if you had not dodged its attack. this means that damage have to be "rolled" even tho its a miss to see how mutch damage you avoided. so if you dodge damage equal to 90% of your health you get 90% of the exp the beast can give in defense exp

[sander]

how about this, when combat ends (even if its when you die or flee) the amount of exp given is a % of the total exp you can get from a beast equal to the % of damage you did to him. so if you kill him you get the same amount no matter what you used, but only hurt him and flee and you get the exp for how mutch damage you did.

That's virtually the same thing that piffy and I suggested

same can be done with defense but here its calculated based on how mutch damage the beast does to you if you had not dodged its attack. this means that damage have to be "rolled" even tho its a miss to see how mutch damage you avoided. so if you dodge damage equal to 90% of your health you get 90% of the exp the beast can give in defense exp

Sounds nice, but the same problem remains: You use bad weapons so the creature can hit you more often. Also, lower level creatures will give you more XP because they won't hit you so often. People would be going after deer with no weapons or pickaxes to get more defense XP.

 

I think we should be trying to figure out what defense really is. There are two forms of defense really:

 

1) Active defense. This means blocking attacks, dodging, evading, etcetera

2) Passive defense. This is things like armor. Passive defense is an 'armor skill'. The higher defense, the more proficient you are with wearing and using armor.

 

There is another way of classifying these 2 types of defense. The origin of your XP. With (1) you rely upon your enemy's actions to give you XP. Your enemy does something (try to hit you) and you get XP. I think that this is the real flaw in the defense system. You get XP not because you do something and succeed, but you get XP because the other guy does soemthing and does not succed. You are dependant on the other guy.

 

Up to now in this discussion, we have been focussed around (1). The inherent problem with this is, the more you get hit, the more XP you get. There's several ways to go about it (XP for getting damage, XP for not getting damage, XP for not getting hit, etcetera) but basically they all boil down to the same. You have to rely on the other guy.

 

Maybe we should be focussing on (2) instead in order to get a better defense system. How would you gain skill in using and wearing armor? It has to be an action that you do yourself, not something that the other guy does. So you can get XP for your own actions.

[duran]

but you forgot about the part where is said that the beast have a max amount of exp it can give out, pr skill. so even tho you get hot more there is a cap on how mutch you can get from a beast so there is no reason for going after a deer when a goblin can hit you less but give equal if not more exp pr fight...

 

lets say the deer can give a max of 100 exp while a goblin can give a max of 500 exp, both hit you for 1% of your health. the goblin gives you 5, the deer gives you 1.

 

and if you kill a deer you get 100 exp in combat skill, kill a goblin and you get 500 exp.

[Guest]

why not split up defense in:

1) toughness. How hard must your enemy hit you befor eyou lose a health point. This is improved when you are being hit, because you get tougher.

2) dodge. This is how good you are at dodging the enemy attack. You get experience when the enemy tries to hit you, but you could dodge.

 

more stats, more stats!

[Kerrighan]

 

Maybe we should be focussing on (2) instead in order to get a better defense system. How would you gain skill in using and wearing armor? It has to be an action that you do yourself, not something that the other guy does. So you can get XP for your own actions.

 

As per your definition of armor beign a passive defense, you can't learn how to use it. The armor simply should absorb a fixed quantity of damage

WHEN YOU CANNOT BLOCK an attack with a shiled ( or Parry it with a weapon, or dodge it?). Then Defense experience got is exactly

 

def exp got = hp got if don't block - hp really got while blocking

 

Anyway extending the Roja idea of weapons classes, we could get separated defense skills: ie

 

- Shield blocking

- Weapon Parrying

- Dodging

 

Obviously none of them applyes against ranged weapons ( if any), unless

a special kind of power/skill is granted to char (like monk's arrow block in other games). Only magically imbued shield could block this

[sander]

Well..... I have secretly been working on a totally new skill system for about 3-5 days now. I'll post it in a new thread and you will be free to comment on it there.