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Mage class formulas

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The most important formula is the restoration spell, which is used a lot by fighters.

As discussed in the previous threads, having fighters do a full restore is not the best idea, and no other game allows that, for a good reason (makes fighters very hard to kill, and everyone who wants to PK will just become a fighter).

 

To determine the restoration formulas, we need to consider a few things:

1. Most of the high level fighters also have a high magic level.

2. Pure fighters should not be able to restore their full health (especially if wearing a CoL, MoL, etc.)

3. Because of 1&2, an attribute that is not useful for fighting needs to be used as a modifier.

4. The best modifier is rationality, because it requires will (which is useful for both fighters and mages) and reasoning, which is not useful for fighters.

 

Now, there are two kinds of formulas:

One that adds stuff, such as the heal=magic*1.5+rationality*5

And another one that uses the rationality as a magic level amplifier: heal=magic*9*(rationality/100)

The second formula would allow about magic*4.5 healpoints restored when a player maxed their rationality. So with a magic of 100 (very hard to get) you'd have around 432 healed.

 

Personally, I'd rather use the second formula, because it uses the rationality as a skill amplifier, rather than as a constant bonus.

 

All the offensive spells will use the second formula.

 

Then we have the magic immunity removal:

I think a good formula would be: magic_caster*2*(rationality_caster/100)-magic_targe*2*(rationality_target/100) percent of removing the magic immunity.

 

Now please comment about this, feel free to add suggestions and stuff. And any response should be argumented, no "this sux lol!" posts.

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I've had a thought about this, a kind of compromise. How about tying rationality to the cooldown of the restoration spell but keeping the spell itself essencially the same? The higher your rationality the shorter time you can have between restorations. This would allow people to still train how we do now without the problem of fighters being able to constantly restore to stay alive against a number of mages casting harm on them.

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I've had a thought about this, a kind of compromise. How about tying rationality to the cooldown of the restoration spell but keeping the spell itself essencially the same? The higher your rationality the shorter time you can have between restorations. This would allow people to still train how we do now without the problem of fighters being able to constantly restore to stay alive against a number of mages casting harm on them.

i am 100% agreeing to this

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I think the first formula for restoration is better, since if you use the second, with 21 magic level and 12 rationality for example you would heal 31 HP, which is worse than using the simple heal spell. With magic level around 50 you would need 33 rationality (thats a lot) to heal 150 HP. With the first formula, with 50 magic level and 16 reasoning 20 will for example you would heal 165 HP, which is pretty decent

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Ireally like the idea of rationality as a multiplier rather than bonus. This will of course use up more essies/sr cuz the health restored is lower given the same magic level and rat number.

 

With magic immunity removal, it looks like 0 percent chance of removing magic immune if your magic lvl and rat are lower than the target's. Is there a way to still leave a small chance? Something like:

(magic_caster*2*(rationality_caster/100)-magic_targe*2*(rationality_target/100))+5

 

Otherwise I see many people giving up on that spell for fear of just wasting mana.

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4. The best modifier is rationality, because it requires will (which is useful for both fighters and mages) and reasoning, which is not useful for fighters.

 

 

 

I have heard a few people say that this would not be very good for PK. Reasoning I think it will be very desirable for fighters, Not only does it help the Perception problem, but it also is the only attribute left that will increase dexterity (increase a chance to hit) Fighters are more apt after PC to max out reasoning for just this purpose, especaily if it is tied to the usefullness of magic. Because of this, I see fighters ending up like before, with very similar builds. Perhaps more importance could be place on the magic level....and maybe magic nexus...Defensive spells would require a low magic nexus, however to be uber strong mage, you should have to do the same with nexus as summoners, maximum of 7. Once a fighter has restore, magic imunity, he will stop putting PP in nexus, compared to a mage that will spend the PP on the nexus?

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I think the first formula should be used for restoration, actually I would like to see it stay as it is. When you put on a COL you need to use restoration to bring your heath up to full. With this in place that will not be the case. :happy:

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I've had a thought about this, a kind of compromise. How about tying rationality to the cooldown of the restoration spell but keeping the spell itself essencially the same? The higher your rationality the shorter time you can have between restorations. This would allow people to still train how we do now without the problem of fighters being able to constantly restore to stay alive against a number of mages casting harm on them.

 

While that is not a bad idea in itself, I think people should stick with fighting monsters around their level, where they don't need the restoration spell to restore too much HPs.

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i play EL for several months now, my magic level is 22, my rationality is 8. that would be 22 * 9 * 8/100 = 198 * 8/100 = 15

that would be 1.5 the health i get when doing a normal healing spell

 

with the other formula that would be 33 + 40 = 73 which sounds more like "restore" to me...

 

of course, im still kinda noob, but only restoring 15hp with restore spell after playing half a year seems definetely too less IMO...

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I've had a thought about this, a kind of compromise. How about tying rationality to the cooldown of the restoration spell but keeping the spell itself essencially the same? The higher your rationality the shorter time you can have between restorations. This would allow people to still train how we do now without the problem of fighters being able to constantly restore to stay alive against a number of mages casting harm on them.

Now that's the idea I really like! It would solve the "invincible fighters" problem, without being a nuisance to everybody else.

If that idea is unacceptable, I'd rather see the formula being magic*(1,5 or 2)+rationality*5, as the second one forces EVERYBODY to put at least 50pp in will/reasoning for restoration to be useful (if my math is correct it would let a person with 50 magic heal 130 hp) - totally impossible for most people.

Edited by Lotheneil

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With magic immunity removal, it looks like 0 percent chance of removing magic immune if your magic lvl and rat are lower than the target's. Is there a way to still leave a small chance? Something like:

(magic_caster*2*(rationality_caster/100)-magic_targe*2*(rationality_target/100))+5

 

Otherwise I see many people giving up on that spell for fear of just wasting mana.

 

Yes, of course, a small random modifier (perhaps given by the astrology) can be used. But there is little difference between 0% and 5% anyway (in practice).

 

BTW, as a compromise, I will slightly reduce the cooldown for the healing potions and make them stackable.

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4. The best modifier is rationality, because it requires will (which is useful for both fighters and mages) and reasoning, which is not useful for fighters.

 

 

 

I have heard a few people say that this would not be very good for PK. Reasoning I think it will be very desirable for fighters, Not only does it help the Perception problem, but it also is the only attribute left that will increase dexterity (increase a chance to hit) Fighters are more apt after PC to max out reasoning for just this purpose, especaily if it is tied to the usefullness of magic. Because of this, I see fighters ending up like before, with very similar builds. Perhaps more importance could be place on the magic level....and maybe magic nexus...Defensive spells would require a low magic nexus, however to be uber strong mage, you should have to do the same with nexus as summoners, maximum of 7. Once a fighter has restore, magic imunity, he will stop putting PP in nexus, compared to a mage that will spend the PP on the nexus?

 

That is true and why myself personally would like it tied to magic nexus not reasoning and then you are getting any bonus because you decide to go the "mage" path and not just as a side effect of an attribute a lot of fighters will take anyway

 

edit: and the more players need to spread out there pp's between attributes and nexi , makes for more divers characters and players having to make a concious choice between being powerful in one or 2 areas or an all rounder

 

but of the 2 proposed choices I would go for number 1

Edited by conavar

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While that is not a bad idea in itself, I think people should stick with fighting monsters around their level, where they don't need the restoration spell to restore too much HPs.

 

My thoughts on it are that are that it's not really about fighting monsters above your level. With a low powered restoration spell it's going to make people consume a lot more SR's/HE's etc. I know a lot of people make thir own HE's and SR's due to not having enough gc to buy them all the time. With the cooldown time based on rationality you will still be allowing people to train for a reasonable amount of time without restock and also allow people to still mix economically with toads.

 

It will also open the doors for a bit more diversity of fighting classes with more of a chance to be not only a pure mage or pure fighter but also a kind of battle mage that would still stand a chance.

 

 

EDIT: Also, without a very high rationality it's still going to be very difficult to fight monsters higher than yourself due to the cooldown on the restoration spell.

Edited by FatboyJaxx

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I personally think you should have a Restore spell, which restores all HP with the cooldown tied to rationality which someone mention but at a higher lvl, say 50+? and another healing spell somewhere along the lines Entropy mentioned.

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4. The best modifier is rationality, because it requires will (which is useful for both fighters and mages) and reasoning, which is not useful for fighters.

 

 

 

I have heard a few people say that this would not be very good for PK. Reasoning I think it will be very desirable for fighters, Not only does it help the Perception problem, but it also is the only attribute left that will increase dexterity (increase a chance to hit) Fighters are more apt after PC to max out reasoning for just this purpose, especaily if it is tied to the usefullness of magic. Because of this, I see fighters ending up like before, with very similar builds. Perhaps more importance could be place on the magic level....and maybe magic nexus...Defensive spells would require a low magic nexus, however to be uber strong mage, you should have to do the same with nexus as summoners, maximum of 7. Once a fighter has restore, magic imunity, he will stop putting PP in nexus, compared to a mage that will spend the PP on the nexus?

 

That is true and why myself personally would like it tied to magic nexus not reasoning and then you are getting any bonus because you decide to go the "mage" path and not just as a side effect of an attribute a lot of fighters will take anyway

That is the way I see it personaly

If you want to be ubber strong fighter with a nice glowy sword you need 7 Human Nexus..If you want to be a mage and harm me for 100hp's while invisable, maybe you need 7 Magic Nexus?

 

Just my thoughts on the matter. If rationality is tied to magic, fighters will build 48P 48C 48R and some will or V for mana (most likley will if it makes them restore more Hitpoints)

 

If this is the case, then most fighters will all end up with the same build. And we end up with the same issue we are trying to get out of.

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With the cooldown time based on rationality you will still be allowing people to train for a reasonable amount of time without restock and also allow people to still mix economically with toads.

 

Again, this is an idea worth considering, but my formula has the advantage that it takes more items out of the economy faster (and redistributes the money in a more equitable way, since the fighters might have to outsource some of their essences and potions).

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My 0,02 cents:

 

1. the first formula looks more balanced, the second one is very punitive especially for low to middle level characters;

 

2. as it has been noted by several other players, rationality will naturally increase for fighters as well when they'll start to put pp in reasoning (both for the dexterity and the perception bonuses): if you really want to use a non-fighter modifier magic nexus perhaps could fit the bill, you could add it to the formulas as a "level" modifier (i.e. 1 means that you can cast advanced spells requiring a magic nexus of one with no added bonus, 2 is a *2 or similar modifier, and so on).

 

Rehdon

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With the cooldown time based on rationality you will still be allowing people to train for a reasonable amount of time without restock and also allow people to still mix economically with toads.

 

It will also open the doors for a bit more diversity of fighting classes with more of a chance to be not only a pure mage or pure fighter but also a kind of battle mage that would still stand a chance.

 

 

EDIT: Also, without a very high rationality it's still going to be very difficult to fight monsters higher than yourself due to the cooldown on the restoration spell.

 

I totally agree with this. First of all this way of dealing with the restore spell hinders pure fighters to restore too often too fast, will allow mages to cast faster to be able to stand up to fighters and last of all not spoil it for ppl addicted to toads ;-) just my 2 cent...

 

EDIT: a quick thought on magic nexus as a modifier: won't fighters just be able to buy their way out of this? --> hydro bars to magic nexus... I would ;-)

Edited by Hakri

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If we go the Nexus way, we'd need at least 30 in magic nexus in order to be a competitive mage.

 

As for the fighter maxing their reasoning, that's never going to happen. They have to max their phy, coo, will, instinct (if they want to dodge misisles or summon double monsters), vitality (for more mana and toughness)..

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I like the 1st formula.

Like this yes fighters will still need to increase the modifier but not forced to loose everything else because of it.

 

Say 50 magic w/20 rationality will restore 175

w/the second formula it would only restore 90.

 

With the cooldown as it currently is and all the great swords, fights will be even shorter than before, and a top a/d fighter would have very little chance against a mage w/a col, with the 1st formula things would be more balanced ;D

Edited by Kapone

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1. the first formula looks more balanced, the second one is very punitive especially for low to middle level characters;
I agree with this statement (and how it's worded :happy: ). I also believe the first formula is better.

 

In addition I think the idea of a relationship between rationality and cooldown is interesting. But it doesn't have to be either/or (cooldown OR one of the formulas). We could use the first formula and also have rationality have some effect at shortening the cooldown.

 

And this cooldown shortening effect could apply to ALL cooldowns, not just restore or magic related ones. That could really provide an extra incentive to increase rationality.

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The ability to heal is very mportant to every fighter, PKer, monster trainer.

 

If amplifier is used, fighters can double effect by adding 8 pickpoints to will or reasoning (those who previously had 4). Hence this will become something obligatory and will limit attribute choices for the fighter.

 

mag* 1.5+ rat*5 is a bit harsh too.

Lets take an example. Magic level around 80 is near top 10 magic, something very high. A fighter with such extraordinary level and 4 rationality would restore only 140 hp. If we take a/d skill, attack and defense are very important, not less important than the cross attributes. With magic skill and these formulas, level would be unimportant compared to rationality. And it would be first such EL skill.

 

I would accept formula like mag* 2 + rat* 5 or mag * 2.5+ rat* 5.

 

Hopefully time will prove I have been wrong and the proposed formulas will make a fun game

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If we go the Nexus way, we'd need at least 30 in magic nexus in order to be a competitive mage.

 

As for the fighter maxing their reasoning, that's never going to happen. They have to max their phy, coo, will, instinct (if they want to dodge misisles or summon double monsters), vitality (for more mana and toughness)..

 

A Fighter will certainly be wise to max out Coordination. With no doubt. Physic may not be the next choice to max. Lower level fighters (80 AD / 110 AD) will most likely keep physic down to the 28/36 range to max xp from trainning. They will put some 16-20 on will or vitailty, then will put quite a few on Instint, or reasoning. If they know they will need rationality to restore more hitpoints, they will go to put remainder of PP in Reasoning. They will not hit as hard, but they will hit more often..A mage, will need more instict, so taking reasoning wouldnt suit them very well. I personly (if I was fighting a mage) want to hit them as often as possible, so they have to restore making it more difficult to click on me to remove immunity.

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I was thinking if we went with cooldown based on rationality something like cooldown = 200/rationality would be a reasonable formula. For someone with no pp's spent on rationality you'd have a long (over 50 sec) cooldown on restoration and for a top level mage with 48 rationality they'd have around 4 sec cooldown allowing them to withstand a fighter for a small amount of time. The amount of time they could withstand a fighter would still be very limited due to EMU for ess/pots etc.

 

This would also force fighters to use more pots etc while fighting each other due to the lengthy cooldown between restores. Fighters would have to use a combination o restoration, potions and maybe even the small heal spell we already have available.

 

Again, this is an idea worth considering, but my formula has the advantage that it takes more items out of the economy faster (and redistributes the money in a more equitable way, since the fighters might have to outsource some of their essences and potions).

 

The problem as I see it with taking more items out of the economy in this manner is it's going to force people to spend a lot more time doing the less enjoyable things like sitting in trass cave mixing HE's which we already do a lot of as a necessity.

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