Pig Skin Death Burka

[JaneMuffin]

Okay I had to post a new topic cuz the Michael Crook topic was just getting way out of hand

 

When I googled the rumor that Russians had buried the Chechen hostage siege terrorists in pig skins, I got these:

 

http://www.parapundit.com/archives/000507.html

 

Not really fact but I am still searching. The best part of the link above is the replies from people about the post!! OMG! I was ROFL!!

 

Okay then there is this one, it's a for real news article from Isreal:

 

http://israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=57793

 

I just had to submit this second one because there is a really really funny qoute in the article!!

 

The rabbi also said that if the police do not use pig fat in buses, tens of thousands of Torah-observant Jews would arm themselves with spray guns filled with liquid lard, which they would then spray on terrorists as the need arises.

 

:lol: Can you believe that?? All this time in Iraq we could have saved sooo much money in artilliry!!

 

Support the US Military mail all bacon drippings to Pres Bush

 

:lol:

 

JaneMuffin

I wonder if the Pigs are gonna Jihad next?

[Daxon]

I wonder if the Pigs are gonna Jihad next? 

 

I think they're a little screwed when it comes to going to pig heaven. :lol:

[Mireille]

Okay I had to post a new topic cuz the Michael Crook topic was just getting way out of hand

 

When I googled the rumor that Russians had buried the Chechen hostage siege terrorists in pig skins, I got these:

 

http://www.parapundit.com/archives/000507.html

 

Not really fact but I am still searching.  The best part of the link above is the replies from people about the post!! OMG! I was ROFL!!

 

168208[/snapback]

 

I hope this message was a joke, because otherwise it would mean you're just as blind and ignorant about what's going on in Chechnya as possible.

 

Can't you idiots realise that such things make Islamic extremists hate the West even more? How many things have to blow up to make you THINK instead of bombing and humiliating everything around?

 

And NO, you can't kill them all. It's impossible. There are millions of people out there who have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to lose. They will blow themselves up just to piss you off.

 

Are you really that blind?

Edited June 7, 2005 by Mireille

[JaneMuffin]

I hope this message was a joke, because otherwise it would mean you're just as blind and ignorant about what's going on in Chechnya as possible.

 

I know the situation ws bad, yes it was a semi-joke. I think that fanatics should be treated with fanticism. In their own laws it says "Eye for an eye"

 

I think they should be treated with the same violence and disrespect that they treat others.

 

Did you read the post about trading hostages for pig skin wrapped terrorists? That might acctually be a great idea. I mean whats the worst they can do? Be-head the hostage? Its already been done.

 

Can't you idiots realise that such things make Islamic extremists hate the West even more? How many things have to blow up to make you THINK instead of bombing and humiliating everything around?

 

Umm last I checked we could all just shut up and sit on our hands (like clinton did) adn still get bombed (First world trade center bombing).

 

What country are you from? What would you do if they had attacked you? how would you feel? Would you be angry? I mean the WHOLE US was very very angry in the begining, but slowly that all wore off. People tend to forget and worst of all forgive things that are UNFORGIVABLE!

 

And NO, you can't kill them all. It's impossible. There are millions of people out there who have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to lose. They will blow themselves up just to piss you off.

 

You are absolutely right, we cannot kill them all, but we can make them sorry they ever messed with the civilized world. If every country gathered and decided on a swift and firm punishment for all terrorists, then they might acctually be fearful and stop what they are doing.

 

No one likes to be on the recieving end of terrorist attacks but most countries are, eve if they dont deserve it! The terrorists are setting policy in some places! Electing goverments with violence? And you are agry because I joked about them being wrapped in pig skin? Trust me if I could think f a worst punishment I would mention it.

 

They will get no sympathy from me.

 

Are you really that blind?

 

Blind would be if I closed my eyes to all thats goign on around me. If I just lay back and let the terrorist attack my country and NOT be angry still. No I dotn think I am blind, I am just pissed off and venting my frustrating by making fun of a bunch of cowardly idiots who cannot ingage in combat like real men

 

I have said it before and maybe I should add it to my siggy:

 

Kill Them All!! There is no such thing as an innocent Suicide bomber.

 

Plus, I am already HATED by islamic extremists, and so are you deary. If you are not an extremist then you are not their pal.

 

Now come off it and laugh a little, trust me al queda is not gonna see you laughing here and bomb your house, plus they would bomb me first And I welcome them

 

JaneMuffin

Nothing wrong with pig blankies!! But the Pig Fat squirt guns are the bestest idea I have heard so far!! I am gonna get one for myself asap!! :lol:

[ChangeYourName]

you guys shouldn't be fighting I think we can both agree that we don't like terrorists and that we love our country. People just have different views on how to deal with such people. As stated we can't kill all the terrorist so in my mind the best way to deal with them is to give them something to live for so they don't become terrorists in the first place. they are over thier trying to figure out where their next meal is going to come from while we are here deciding if we are going to supersize our meals or not. I don't think we should be rewarding terrorist by any means but I don't think people anywhere should be living in horrible conditions while there are people living in mansions and blowing thier money on meaningless crap. I think there is alot of work to be done in the US itself as well as everywhere else in the world. This isn't the cave man era. Until we can give everyone a reasonable standard of living there will always be problems/resentment. The problem is people are way too greedy and don't give a damn about anybody but themselves.

You have to think about how the terrorist feel and why they do the things they do. Like them are not they are people too and have reasons for making the decisions that they make. We have to try to understand them and why they do the things they do in order to stop terrorism all together. we must take the high road two wrongs dont make a right.

[Mireille]

I know the situation ws bad, yes it was a semi-joke.  I think that fanatics should be treated with fanticism.  In their own laws it says "Eye for an eye"

 

 

Thinking the way THEY think makes you lower yourself to their level. You show this way that you are in no way better than they are. I don't think that is how you fight against terrorism.

 

I think they should be treated with the same violence and disrespect that they treat others.

 

 

Violence and hatred only create more violence and hatred. I know it sounds like I was preaching, but preachers are sometimes right.

 

Did you read the post about trading hostages for pig skin wrapped terrorists?  That might acctually be a great idea.  I mean whats the worst they can do?  Be-head the hostage?  Its already been done.

 

 

It insults and humiliates ALL Muslims, also those who have no hostile sentiments against the West. It only proves the extremists' theories that the war against terror is actually a war against islam.

 

What country are you from?  What would you do if they had attacked you?  how would you feel?  Would you be angry?  I mean the WHOLE US was very very angry in the begining, but slowly that all wore off.  People tend to forget and worst of all forgive things that are UNFORGIVABLE!

 

 

You think EXACTLY how they think. If you were born into a poor Islamic family, you would be the type that blows itself up. You firghten me.

 

You are absolutely right, we cannot kill them all, but we can make them sorry they ever messed with the civilized world.  If every country gathered and decided on a swift and firm punishment for all terrorists, then they might acctually be fearful and stop what they are doing.

 

 

You're not making ANYONE sorry. You just give more reasons for them to hate you even more.

 

Kill Them All!!  There is no such thing as an innocent Suicide bomber.

 

 

Of course there isn't. But there also isn't a way to tell a suicide bomber until he or she blows themselves up.

 

Plus, I am already HATED by islamic extremists, and so are you deary.  If you are not an extremist then you are not their pal. 

 

 

I know. But what does the US as a superpower do to make radical Muslims hate it less? Nothing.

Edited June 7, 2005 by Mireille

[Daxon]

Thinking the way THEY think makes you lower yourself to their level. You show this way that you are in no way better than they are. I don't think that is how you fight against terrorism.

 

I would prefer we did something rather than nothing. I did particularly enjoy this article though: Nearly 900 Suspected Militants and Terrorists Captured. Looks like something right is being done.

 

 

Violence and hatred only create more violence and hatred. I know it sounds like I was preaching, but preachers are sometimes right.

 

In this case, violence and hatred equal more innocent people dying. If we were to invoke our own violence and hatred (and believe me, we are more than capable of it), then it'd either result in a depression of Terrorists and their morale, or it'd be like kicking a beehive. You never know till you try.

 

 

It insults and humiliates ALL Muslims, also those who have no hostile sentiments against the West. It only proves the extremists' theories that the war against terror is actually a war against islam.

 

Any intelligent Muslim would know we'd just be punishing those who perform Terrorism while associating with Islam. We'd be unable to do that to Atheist Terrorists, but I don't think those exist.

 

You think EXACTLY how they think. If you were born into a poor Islamic family, you would be the type that blows itself up. You firghten me.

 

And since when did you become an expert on personalities? You don't know Jane so don't judge her personality. A few words mean nothing.

 

You're not making ANYONE sorry. You just give more reasons for them to hate you even more.

 

There is no degree of hate. You hate someone or you don't. It'd be impossible to make them hate us more than they already do, because hate has no levels. Disliking someone is a different story.

 

Of course there isn't. But there also isn't a way to tell a suicide bomber until he or she blows themselves up.

 

Then think up an idea on how we can find them instead of criticizing how we do things. Be productive.

 

I know.  But what does the US as a superpower do to make radical Muslims hate it less? Nothing.

 

I don't recall the U.S. specifically catering to extremist Muslims, especially ones that degrade their religion, twist the idea of Jihad, and execute innocent people. Now, do you -REALLY- think we want to make them happy?

 

Want the real idea of Jihad and how it could have been better used? Look up Saladin.

 

But yeah, this was a joke that seems to not be funny to those who dislike Americans or think down of us in general. So I'm not responding anymore to this thread, as it's one of 500 or so of the same kind this forum has.

 

It was funny though Jane. :lol: Bye.

 

*FINAL Note: I thought this wasn't a flames forum?

Edited June 7, 2005 by Daxon

[Mireille]

I would prefer we did something rather than nothing.  I did particularly enjoy this article though:  Nearly 900 Suspected Militants and Terrorists Captured.  Looks like something right is being done.

 

 

Sure, and another 19 people were bown up today. Keep up the good work!

 

In this case, violence and hatred equal more innocent people dying.  If we were to invoke our own violence and hatred (and believe me, we are more than capable of it),

 

 

Oh, I bet you are. Pity you are brainless cowboys who first act then think.

 

then it'd either result in a depression of Terrorists and their morale, or it'd be like kicking a beehive.  You never know till you try.

 

 

Depression? What the smeg are you talking about? WHY should they be depressed? Because you've killed some of them? It just makes them hate you more and gives them prove that their cause is just. And I don't give a smeg about what YOU think and about what all of Daxonville, Texas, thinks. Terrorists don't live in Daxonville, Texas. Terrorists don't think like people in Daxonville, Texas. They think differently, but the problem is that it's THEM who are terrorists and it's THEM who have to be understood first. "Know your enemy" - it's one of the most basic war principles. Pity you guys only recently were told that "Iraq" is NOT pronounced "eye-raq".

 

Any intelligent Muslim would know we'd just be punishing those who perform Terrorism while associating with Islam.

 

 

Intelligence has nothing to do with it. If you bury people in pig burkhas or desacrify the Koran, you insult Islam, not specific people. Imagine some Islamic activist pissed on the Bible to express his disapproval of the IRA's terrorist acts. Would you feel offended? Of course you would. Even though you're not in IRA.

 

And since when did you become an expert on personalities?  You don't know Jane so don't judge her personality.  A few words mean nothing.

 

 

I can judge anyone I want to, thank you. If Jane doesn't want to be considered a redneck, she shouldn't sound like one.

 

Then think up an idea on how we can find them instead of criticizing how we do things.  Be productive.

 

 

Why me? I'm not a superpower. I have no millions of dollars and world's best political analysts at my disposal. The US, on the contrary, has. And somehow it let complete morons do the responsible job, while they should NEVER leave their ranchos and cows.

 

I don't recall the U.S. specifically catering to extremist Muslims, especially ones that degrade their religion, twist the idea of Jihad, and execute innocent people.  Now, do you -REALLY- think we want to make them happy?

 

 

You certainly give them arguments against yourselves.

 

Want the real idea of Jihad and how it could have been better used?  Look up Saladin.

 

 

The REAL Jihad were crusades. Christians invaded something which didn't belong to them and Saladdin took it back. And the worst thing possible now is using the term "crusade" while talking about the war on terrorism. It's so stupid and mindless that there isn't a word to describe how stupid and mindless it is. Unfortunately, that's what Bush is doing. In the Islamic terrorists' point of view, it's BUSH leading a religious war against THEM and they are only defending themselves.

Edited June 8, 2005 by Mireille

[Tanyia]

Can't you idiots realise that such things make Islamic extremists hate the West even more? How many things have to blow up to make you THINK instead of bombing and humiliating everything around?

168215[/snapback]

 

Not all Americans have the same opinions. Please do not insult us because we were born on a certain area of the Earth. I don't remember having a choice where I was born.

[Mireille]

Not all Americans have the same opinions. Please do not insult us because we were born on a certain area of the Earth. I don't remember having a choice where I was born.

168419[/snapback]

 

I don't remember talking about all Americans. I was referring strictly to those Americans who think that bombing the shit out of anyone who disagrees with them is a solution to all the world's problems. Please read my messages more carefully.

Edited June 8, 2005 by Mireille

[rasberrybeard]

I don't remember talking about all Americans. I was referring strictly to those Americans who think that bombing the shit out of anyone who disagrees with them is a solution to all the world's problems. Please read my messages more carefully

 

Wait.... thats not the solution! Oh Damn! What am I supposed to think now???!! Oh I know lets becomea Communist society and join THE TERRORISTS! OMG! And since the muslims support these orginizations tehn they can be our fwiends too!!!111 omg 1337! While were at it lets make Jerusalem the grand capital of the world and declare Jihad on the god who created us! WOW THAT WOULD BE FUCKING SMART WOULDNT IT?

 

You want my opinion, here it is: The muslims brought this upon themselves, by not condoning the extremists actions but rather just sitting by and watching they CONDEMNED THEMSELVES. I truly do believe that if they had at one point said "Hey man, we are not all like that and we will help you stop this violence." then i truly believe there would not be the rift in society that there is. I guess it doesn't help the problem that some of the most bloodthirsty criminals ever to walk the earth have been muslim, nor the fact that we lost thousands of lives ina single day because of muslim actions.

 

Before you say that I am a typical american, you can stfu cause you have no idea what the typical american is, your mind has been poisined by the foreign media into thinking that we are monsters. How about all the good things we do in the world? we singlehandedly have stopped THOUSANDS of more conflicts in sudan, korea and other third world countries, we are the biggest donaters to charities in the world, and when asia was struck with the tsunami we spent BILLIONS in private, and government money to help rebuild. (oh and btw there thanks was to say that we didnt donate enough, oh man that makes us feel good).

 

Is it any wonder we are hated around the world? Of course not after all, we are the one every turns to when they need help, and they usually get it. When there is a military conflict, we turn the tables for one side, when people are being repressed by a tottalarian govt we free them and then get kicked out with not so much as a thanx. Ahhh yes that is the burden of being a us citizen, you are hated used and abused. Keep pushing our tempers and eventually we will snap. (personally I think we should just let the res of the world rot and build an impenetratable homeland defense system)

 

PS: I wonder if people realize the true might of our military? I think if they did then they wouldnt do have the dumbass shit they do. After all out of the 100 some odd wars and military conflicts we have been in how many have we lost? Oh thats right 2. how many times have we been occupied? Oh thats right, none. Who has a weapon cache large enough to blow up the world 24 times? oh thats right us.

 

=end rant=

[Mireille]

Wait.... thats not the solution! Oh Damn! What am I supposed to think now???!! Oh I know lets becomea  Communist society and join THE TERRORISTS! OMG! And since the muslims support these orginizations tehn they can be our fwiends too!!!111 omg 1337! While were at it lets make Jerusalem the grand capital of the world and declare Jihad on the god who created us! WOW THAT WOULD BE FUCKING SMART WOULDNT IT?

 

 

You're talking gibberish. Try to make sense next time.

 

 

You want my opinion, here it is: The muslims brought this upon themselves, by not condoning the extremists actions but rather just sitting by and watching they CONDEMNED THEMSELVES. I truly do believe that if they had at one point said "Hey man, we are not all like that and we will help you stop this violence." then i truly believe there would not be the rift in society that there is.

 

 

They couldn't do that, because they were poor, uneducated people and have been brainwashed by fanatics into thinking that the West is responsible for all their problems. Were they right? No. But the only solution is education and development, not bombs. People who actually have something to lose don't become terrorists. Shimon Peres is wrong. It's poverty that spawns terrorism, not on the contrary.

 

Hitler was chosen in a democratic way. Did the Germans condemn themselves? Yes. But American administration at that time was much wiser than that of Bush (which isn't much of an effort, really) and didn't punish the entire German society, on the contrary, they let it develop - in a democratic way. Currently militarism and nazism are a narrow margin of German society and no-one takes it seriously.

 

Before you say that I am a typical american, you can stfu cause you have no idea what the typical american is, your mind has been poisined by the foreign media into thinking that we are monsters.

 

 

I was not going to say you were a typical American. I don;t believe there is such a thing as a typical American. Read again my reply to Tanyia and next time, think twice before drawing absurd, paranoid conclusions.

 

How about all the good things we do in the world? we singlehandedly have stopped THOUSANDS of more conflicts in sudan, korea and other third world countries, we are the biggest donaters to charities in the world, and when asia was struck with the tsunami we spent BILLIONS in private, and government money to help rebuild.

 

 

And you liberated my country from Soviet occupation (no matter how Putin's neo-Soviet propaganda calls it) for which I can't be grateful enough. But they were different people, and the world was different too.

Have you already forgotten that even the French newspapers would write "We are all Americans" after the WTC attacks and people would gather to light candles at American embassies? But Bush's arrogance and unilateralism brilliantly turned the world's sympathy (sic!) into hostility. If you feel sick about how the world is starting to detest the USA, thank your own government for that.

 

Is it any wonder we are hated around the world? Of course not after all, we are the one every turns to when they need help, and they usually get it. When there is a military conflict, we turn the tables for one side, when people are being repressed by a tottalarian govt we free them and then get kicked out with not so much as a thanx.

 

 

Right. The same way you freed Cubans from Battista and Chileans from Pinochet. :/

 

PS: I wonder if people realize the true might of our military?I think if they did then they wouldnt do have the dumbass shit they do. After all out of the 100 some odd wars and military conflicts we have been in how many have we lost? Oh thats right 2. how many times have we been occupied? Oh thats right, none. Who has a weapon cache large enough to blow up the world 24 times? oh thats right us.

 

 

I COMPLETELY don't see your point. What is that supposed to mean? Even the most powerful army is helpless against determinated and hate-driven guerillas. Haven't you learnt anything on the Soviets' mistakes in Afghanistan and your own in Vietnam ()?

 

Besides, as long as people keep being blown up and the cellestial and divine might of the American military is unable to provide them with safety, you can shove that rant about the US military power where the sun doesn't shine.

Edited June 8, 2005 by Mireille

[Tanyia]

Mireille, I read it several times before responding. The wording seemed to imply you were talking about all Americans, from how I read it. And I came at it from a "he's probably NOT doing that" standpoint, and that is still how I read it. Try "some Americans" instead of "you".

[ChangeYourName]

Wait.... thats not the solution! Oh Damn! What am I supposed to think now???!! Oh I know lets becomea  Communist society and join THE TERRORISTS! OMG! And since the muslims support these orginizations tehn they can be our fwiends too!!!111 omg 1337! While were at it lets make Jerusalem the grand capital of the world and declare Jihad on the god who created us! WOW THAT WOULD BE FUCKING SMART WOULDNT IT?

 

It seems silly to respond to a little kids post but oh well I am bored and there is nothing to do till emule finishes downloading my porn. And wtf is wrong with being a communist.....just becuse it has been demonized over the years doesnt mean it is evil and that there is nothing that can be learned from it. Our society can use a little communism mixed in . I will not get into why I think so (or else this post would be several pages long). I suppose you can think about it yourself and come up with some reasons why.

 

You want my opinion, here it is: The muslims brought this upon themselves, by not condoning the extremists actions but rather just sitting by and watching they CONDEMNED THEMSELVES. I truly do believe that if they had at one point said "Hey man, we are not all like that and we will help you stop this violence." then i truly believe there would not be the rift in society that there is. I guess it doesn't help the problem that some of the most bloodthirsty criminals ever to walk the earth have been muslim, nor the fact that we lost thousands of lives ina  single day because of muslim actions.

 

I can think of alot of bloodthirsty criminals and most of them are not muslim. muslims did not bring this upon themselves....terrorists brought this upon themselves. every muslim is not a terrorist and if they were our "war" would be alot easier. If 12 americans hijacked a plane and flew it into the 7-11 would I be a terrorist because I am American? I would be able to condemn their actions because I live in America and every idiot has thier own voice here...you think it is that easy for them? Our "war" isnt about terrorism it is about money or we would have gone after bin laden till we caught him...not give up and turn our attention to a country so that several political contributers could make alot of money rebuilding a country etc. how about saudia arabia where almost every single one of those plane poons came from? do we even think about that area...no maybe you should ask yourself why.

 

Before you say that I am a typical american, you can stfu cause you have no idea what the typical american is, your mind has been poisined by the foreign media into thinking that we are monsters. How about all the good things we do in the world? we singlehandedly have stopped THOUSANDS of more conflicts in sudan, korea and other third world countries, we are the biggest donaters to charities in the world, and when asia was struck with the tsunami we spent BILLIONS in private, and government money to help rebuild. (oh and btw there thanks was to say that we didnt donate enough, oh man that makes us feel good).

 

 

Your mind has been poisined by fox news and other bias news channels if you serouisly think that America has never did F*^5ed up stuff in its day around the world. I am not in the mood for giving you a history lesson but I am sure if you really want to know you can look up yourself to see all the bad stuff we have done over the years. And yes we do alot of good things too but we are not without out own faults.

 

 

Is it any wonder we are hated around the world? Of course not after all, we are the one every turns to when they need help, and they usually get it. When there is a military conflict, we turn the tables for one side, when people are being repressed by a tottalarian govt we free them and then get kicked out with not so much as a thanx. Ahhh yes that is the burden of being a us citizen, you are hated used and abused. Keep pushing our tempers and eventually we will snap. (personally I think we should just let the res of the world rot and build an impenetratable homeland defense system)

 

 

I would like to see this defense system you have planned.....Personally I think you are watching too many cartoons if you think such a thing is possible.

 

 

PS: I wonder if people realize the true might of our military? I think if they did then they wouldnt do have the dumbass shit they do. After all out of the 100 some odd wars and military conflicts we have been in how many have we lost? Oh thats right 2. how many times have we been occupied? Oh thats right, none. Who has a weapon cache large enough to blow up the world 24 times? oh thats right us.

 

out of the "Major" conflicts our record isn't that great........as for all out weapons etc. all they need is one.........and it's only a matter of time till they get thier hands on it. lets piss on them some more instead of really trying to fix the situation.....

[Mireille]

Mireille, I read it several times before responding.  The wording seemed to imply you were talking about all Americans, from how I read it. And I came at it from a "he's probably NOT doing that" standpoint, and that is still how I read it.  Try "some Americans" instead of "you".

168825[/snapback]

 

Ok, I will. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

I REALLY don't hate America, you know, I'm just terrified at the amount of hate that spills out of some people here. They should be more open-minded than those who they are so fiercely against (id est, terrorists).

Edited June 9, 2005 by Mireille

[Creepin_Death]

I REALLY don't hate America, you know, I'm just terrified at the amount of hate that spills out of some people here. They should be more open-minded than those who they are so fiercely against (id est, terrorists).

169033[/snapback]

 

Open minded about the slaughter of of our people???? Hmmm. I'm sure you really think Israel should be extremely sympathetic since these cowards kill innocent people there every day.

 

I do feel sympathy for the true followers of Allah because his teachings were about peace and love not violence against the innocent and hate.

 

By the way I think Jane told you what happened when we were more "open minded" .....we get bombed again and much worse. We tried the open minded rout and it failed so bad that thousands of innocent lives were lost.

[Mireille]

Open minded about the slaughter of of our people???? Hmmm. I'm sure you really think Israel should be extremely sympathetic since these cowards kill innocent people there every day.

 

 

Israel is the worst example possible. I'm not sure if you're aware, but 50 years ago Jews came to Palestine en masse and kicked the Palestinians out of their homes where they had been living for centuries. Now they pay for their own stupidity and greed. I don't say that I support Palestinian terrorists, but Sharon's policy in that matter is (or was) just as short-sighted as that of Bush.

 

Fortunately, something is actually being done and we can only hope that this plan of withdrawal of the Jewish settlements from the Gaza strip will work.

 

I do feel sympathy for the true followers of Allah because his teachings were about peace and love not violence against the innocent and hate.

 

 

Good. At least you seem to realise that there is more to Islam than terrorism.

 

By the way I think Jane told you what happened when we were more "open minded" .....we get bombed again and much worse.

 

We tried the open minded rout and it failed so bad that thousands of innocent lives were lost.

 

169050[/snapback]

 

You tried the open-minded way? When? Was it in Iraq or Afghanistan? Do you realise there were hardly no terrorists in Iraq before the American invasion?

 

Ohhhhh, you are talking about the WTC attack, not those 100 thousand Iraquis that have already lost their lives in Iraq due to the American army's impotence in providing them with safety. You're right, Iraquis are poor and shouldn't be cared for as much as Americans. <_<

Edited June 10, 2005 by Mireille

[Razia]

It's true that the actions of highly visable parts of the west make the masses of the mideast hate the US, but it is equally true that the actions of highly visable parts of the mid-east make the masses of the west hate them. Equal bad conduct for both sides, though the results are definitly unequal.

 

An important differnece is, that if the mid east stops, the west will let them lie (they are concerened with money, not religion. The mideast is not a threat.) and if the west stops, the mid east will bomb the west again. Thus, the only way to stop this is to persuade the mid-east to stop.

 

Fanatics suck, because they cannot be persuaded. One must destory their roots of poverty and despair and fear that new fanatics grow from and then one must destroy the fanatics to halt them. America's problem is that they run counter to the first step I suggested in their attempts to do the second. They make this bad decision because of their own fanatics, risen from the fear of the other fanatics.

 

The problem is not in america or in the mid east. Both the problems of bombings and the problems of iraq and afganistan's wars are problems with fanatics (under different banners).

 

However, the mid east began this, and so the US must continue it or die. If the US can defeat the fanatics within and then deroot the fanatics outside, it could even suceed. There is always hope for change in a democracy, every four years in the US.

 

to conclude:

Everyone, should fight fanatics in every part of the world. Do not throw hate (or react out of fear) at american fanatics or islamic fanatics, but simply 'fanatics' for they are the same no matter what colors they wear.

 

Also people, beware of attacking minor points and losing the original purpose of the argument in the process. You're both right and you're both wrong. Combine yourselves and turn outward and do some good in the world.

Edited June 13, 2005 by Razia

[giannis]

Smeg, I missed one heck of a discussion. Next time guys don't put a pig on a title for some reason I never bother to check the topic

 

Anyhow I seem to go along what Mireille and ChangeYourName said therefore i have nothing mindblowing to contribute to the discussion assides from a couple side comments.

 

Umm last I checked we could all just shut up and sit on our hands (like clinton did) adn still get bombed (First world trade center bombing).

168221[/snapback]

 

<_< Yeah ....right. Well One thing is for sure, that Clinton did not sit on his hands and the attack at the World trade center did not come from nowhere.

 

August 20 2000 Clinto orders attack on Afghanistan and Sudan

 

 

What country are you from?  What would you do if they had attacked you?  how would you feel?  Would you be angry? 

168221[/snapback]

 

What an epiphany... so now i take it you understan what Mireille said, and you can finally understand what the Terrorists are thinking about the USA (or even better what makes a person changes from a Farmer to a terrorist).

 

I am pretty sure the people of Sudan and Afghanistan were very very angry when Billy-Boy decided to throw his over-stock missles on them. I mean if 2 planes destroy 2 buldings are capable of making the entire American nation angry, what would 1000 missles destroying 1000 buildings make the people of Afghanistan feal?

 

IF your answer was pissed you are a winner (Ding! Ding! Ding!)

Sudanese, Afghan officials condemn U.S. attacks

 

 

And just to add an extra twist to the story how would you expect the people of Afghanistan to feel if the bombings/attacks/destruction of their land happened 3 days after the leader of the attacks admited he was doing the "smoochie-cootsie" with an overweight slut at his office (August 17 Clinton Admits to "Wrong Relationship With Lewinsky".

 

I mean just b/c Billy wanted the media to find something else to play with, does it mean innocent ppl have to die?

 

You are absolutely right, we cannot kill them all, but we can make them sorry they ever messed with the civilized world.  If every country gathered and decided on a swift and firm punishment for all terrorists, then they might acctually be fearful and stop what they are doing.

168221[/snapback]

 

I am pretty sure those would have been the exact words of the Islamic leaders adressing the Afghani ppl after Clinton's attacks. Only change civilized world with Islamic world, terrorists to AMericans, and keep the "They might actualy be fearful and stop what they are doing" and you have an A-rated propagandistic statement.

 

 

Anyhow, Don't get me wrong. I consider my self a pacifists and I hate war, terrorism and the people who are responsible for both. I certainly do not claim that the Attacks on WTC were just/right the same way i don't claim the attacks on Iraq/Afganistan are just or right.

 

I also do not believe it is easy to find what started everything. 9/11 happened b/c Clinton bombed Afghanistan, and that happened b/c Terrorists bombed an American Embassy in Kenya, and that incident happened b/c the US was giving excessive support to Israel against palestine and the list of events goes on and on and on....... it's like the chicken and the egg paradox... which came first?

 

WHEN WE PEOPLE WILL LEARN TO JUST GET ALONG? War sucks, people dieing (civiliants or soldiers) sucks too. Why do we have to fight all the time?

 

It will be best if things stop here. Can't both sides appologize to each other, swear to mind their own bussnes andgo on to live the remainder of theri lives in tranquility and bliss? I guess not... that would be impossible and I should be naive if not an idiot to even imagine the possibility. However, keep this in mind: If we continue to retaliate they will continue to retaliate, and we will always be in Orange/red/yellow alert and never in peace. As i said somewhere else and I quote ( I just love quoting my self.... I'm so full of it ).

 

What do you think that the Iraqi kid who lost his parents and siblings in one of our bombing raids will do when he gets his hands on an airplane ticket for the USA? Go Sight-seen? I don't think so.But don't worry Mr. Bush and his entourage can always take a ride on the Air-force 1, it is you, I, and Mr. American Patriot Jr., who will get blasted into oblivion by an Iraqi exchange student, in the middle of time's square..

 

Give Peace a Chance ....................

 

 

EDIT: Updated post versionfrom v1.01 to v1.01 lots of internal changes that pave the way for the next update.

Edited June 14, 2005 by giannis

[Arnieman]

Giannis: you claim to be a pacifist. I too am HARSHLY against Clinton as a president, and feel much of his actions before and during his term made America look like a laughingstock. I know some opinions are also going to fly that "Dubya" hasn't done much better, but at least missles didn't fly to try and deter people from where his "privates" shouldn't be. Note: Clinton admitted he did something wrong, "terrorist camps" in Afghanistan bought it. While Congress is deciding his fate, Saddam is having to plan the next round of repairs. Was that really "doing something"? I don't think so.

 

Don't get me wrong, I hate war. I wish we would never have to send another life out to die, just so we can live here. However, some people don't see it that way. So, they attack us. Why shouldn't we try to stop them? I mean, really, if we can go in, stop the terrorists, and try to make life better for the civilians who might join the terrorists because their life isn't that great, why shouldn't we?

 

I'd rather not fight, but if we have to, let's take them on where they won't hit us. After all, the civilians there aren't our enemies. However my existence, and that of my nation, is one thing they hate.

 

What would you have us do with an enemy that doesn't want "live and let live"?

[Mireille]

Giannis:  you claim to be a pacifist.  I too am HARSHLY against Clinton as a president, and feel much of his actions before and during his term made America look like a laughingstock.

 

 

It's Bush's actions that made America look like a laughingstock. Here in Europe people would rather respect Clinton for his decisiveness in former Yugoslavia than care for that idiotic scandal. And there is nothing to respect Bush for.

 

Note: Clinton admitted he did something wrong, "terrorist camps" in Afghanistan bought it.  While Congress is deciding his fate, Saddam is having to plan the next round of repairs.  Was that really "doing something"?  I don't think so.

 

 

How many times do you have to be reminded that Osama was not created by Clinton and that he has been doing what he is doing since the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan? With the American blessing, to be more precise? This is not another dumb propaganda from Moore&Co., it's an undeniable fact. But then Osama was killing Soviets and Soviets were ebul so that was OK. Now he is killing Americans and Americans are good so now Osama is ebul.

 

Don't get me wrong, I hate war.  I wish we would never have to send another life out to die, just so we can live here.  However, some people don't see it that way.  So, they attack us.  Why shouldn't we try to stop them?

 

 

Of course you should. But bombing wedding parties is the worst kind of way to do it.

 

I mean, really, if we can go in, stop the terrorists, and try to make life better for the civilians who might join the terrorists because their life isn't that great, why shouldn't we?

 

 

I also believe that you should. But the US army keeps making basic, idiotic mistakes (like Abu Ghraib and the pseudo-trial, but that is only a peak of the iceberg) which make not only terrorists, but civilians hate it too.

 

I'd rather not fight, but if we have to, let's take them on where they won't hit us.  After all, the civilians there aren't our enemies.  However my existence, and that of my nation, is one thing they hate.

 

 

Judging by some messages that have been posted to this topic, I'm not sure who hates whom more. <_<

 

What would you have us do with an enemy that doesn't want "live and let live"?

170465[/snapback]

 

The worst problem about terrorism is that it doesn't have a fixed infrastructure, doesn't have headquarters nor commanders-in-chief and so on. It's not a state. Terrorism derives from poverty. Only people who have nothing to lose would blow themselves up. If you want to get rid of terrorism, get rid of poverty. But it's much more difficult and expensive than dropping bombs. And doesn't give any stimuli to the economy.

 

Oh, Arnie - a little mental experiment for you. Imagine Bush introducing a "stabilization tax" (not just some puny 1% for matches sales, I mean like an increase in the price of petrol by 20%) - called the Great American Patriot tax, it sounds waaay better - to cover increased expenses in reconstructing Iraq and Afghanistan. How do you think it would end? I think his popularity would drop by at least a half immediately.

Edited June 14, 2005 by Mireille

[Arnieman]

It's Bush's actions that made America look like a laughingstock.

170497[/snapback]

Bush is the one who couldn't keep his "manhood" in his pants long enough to run a 7-Eleven, let alone a nation? And then had to bomb people when it was convenient, like, WHEN SOMEONE FOUND OUT?!

Here in Europe people would rather respect Clinton for his decisiveness in former Yugoslavia than care for that idiotic scandal. And there is nothing to respect Bush for.

170497[/snapback]

Glad you have such respect for a man whose most decisive moves were in lieing to his own people. And such "decisiveness", we bombed the Chinese in Yugoslavia... How off the mark do you get? Sorry, maybe that shouldn't be blamed on him, "faulty intelligence". Oh wait, you aren't letting us slide on that wedding party, but an incident that could have sparked the next World War slip your mind. Let's also let slip from mind for a moment how bombs seemed only to flow when he was in hot water, and oh! you're right! President Clinton WAS such a saint compared to Bush, who we all know is the Antichrist, even though he showed MORE guts than Saint Billy Boy.

How many times do you have to be reminded that Osama was not created by Clinton and that he has been doing what he is doing since the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan? With the American blessing, to be more precise? This is not another dumb propaganda from Moore&Co., it's an undeniable fact. But then Osama was killing Soviets and Soviets were ebul so that was OK. Now he is killing Americans and Americans are good so now Osama is ebul.

170497[/snapback]

Fair comment, but I don't think I claimed Clinton created Osama. You'd also note that we gave Saddam some nice weapons to fight Iran a few years back, if you want to dig deeper. Who ever said we don't make mistakes, and who says we can't fix them?

Of course you should. But bombing wedding parties is the worst kind of way to do it.

170497[/snapback]

Look up.

I also believe that you should. But the US army keeps making basic, idiotic mistakes (like Abu Ghraib and the pseudo-trial, but that is only a peak of the iceberg) which make not only terrorists, but civilians hate it too.

170497[/snapback]

same again.

Judging by some messages that have been posted to this topic, I'm not sure who hates whom more.  <_<

 

The worst problem about terrorism is that it doesn't have a fixed infrastructure, doesn't have headquarters nor commanders-in-chief and so on. It's not a state. Terrorism derives from poverty. Only people who have nothing to lose would blow themselves up. If you want to get rid of terrorism, get rid of poverty. But it's much more difficult and expensive than dropping bombs. And doesn't give any stimuli to the economy.

170497[/snapback]

Fair comment, if you look at poverty like drying hay. Throw a spark in (fanaticism), and BOOM! goes up QUICK. Are we to blame that they're poor? Maybe. Are there large amounts of cash that could be opened up to help them? I'm thinking of a certain cave-hopping billionaire who could have actually helped his people, not just arming them... Again, NOW that we are there, maybe we can help. We (America, Britain, and our allies) ARE trying to help.

Oh, Arnie - a little mental experiment for you. Imagine Bush introducing a "stabilization tax" (not just some puny 1% for matches sales, I mean like an increase in the price of petrol by 20%) - called the Great American Patriot tax, it sounds waaay better - to cover increased expenses in reconstructing Iraq and Afghanistan. How do you think it would end? I think his popularity would drop by at least a half immediately.

170497[/snapback]

You know, if he did that, it would prove that he is as stupid as you accuse him of being. And yes, if he did that, I would be ashamed I voted for him. But, that hasn't come up. Plus, I wouldn't think it'd help the oil companies any, who are so-called "raking in the money". But, you also have to realize, that if such a thing came to pass, and no commotion over it, there would be 535 other people (the entirety of the US Congress) looking for jobs, come January, if not sooner.

[Mireille]

 

Bush is the one who couldn't keep his "manhood" in his pants long enough to run a 7-Eleven, let alone a nation?

 

 

You are accusing Clinton of cheating on his wife? Who cares? Take a look at the statistics (YES, in USA TOO, not only in that old, rotten, immoral Europe of mine) and how many people do that to their partners. Politicians are human beings as well.

 

 

And then had to bomb people when it was convenient, like, WHEN SOMEONE FOUND OUT?!

 

 

Perhaps I'm in a minority, but I strongly believe that the war in former Yugoslavia was NOT begun to make people forget the sexual scandal. Maybe you should blame Milosevic for taking huge retaliatory actions against the Kosovo Albanians after the Kosovo Liberation Army's terrorist attacks JUST WHEN the sexual scandal was beginning to be discussed? A huge international conspiracy to fool the American people, perhaps? <_< Involving Milosevic, Clinton and Ibrahim Rugova? Man, that would make a GREAT political fiction novel.

 

 

Glad you have such respect for a man whose most decisive moves were in lieing to his own people.

 

 

Lying to his own people. LOL. A politician's private life is his private life. As long as it doesn't break the law. That Lewinsky scandal was pathetic and gave Europeans another reason to think that the American society is ridden with hipocrisy and narrow-mindedly puritan.

 

 

And such "decisiveness", we bombed the Chinese in Yugoslavia... How off the mark do you get?

 

 

An idiotic mistake, I agree. The mere fact that I support the NATO intervention in the former Yugoslavia doesn't mean that I have to be blind to mistakes.

 

 

Sorry, maybe that shouldn't be blamed on him, "faulty intelligence". Oh wait, you aren't letting us slide on that wedding party, but an incident that could have sparked the next World War slip your mind.

 

 

World War? Mao is dead. The Chinese economy is addicted to USA and the West.

 

 

President Clinton WAS such a saint compared to Bush, who we all know is the Antichrist, even though he showed MORE guts than Saint Billy Boy.

 

 

I'm not saying that Clinton was a saint. I don't care, in fact.

 

 

Fair comment, but I don't think I claimed Clinton created Osama. You'd also note that we gave Saddam some nice weapons to fight Iran a few years back, if you want to dig deeper. Who ever said we don't make mistakes, and who says we can't fix them?

 

 

I know that USA armed Iraq against Iran. I'm just amazed that now they are trying to blame everything on them bad terrorists and showing them as a source of all evil without being able to admit to their own mistakes. When you give a terrorist a weapon you HAVE to calculate that he might use it against you one day. I CAN'T BELIEVE such scenario has not been considered in the Policy Planning Department. American intelligence with all those pathetic squabblings between FBI, CIA and so on helped Osama greatly.

 

 

Fair comment, if you look at poverty like drying hay. Throw a spark in (fanaticism), and BOOM! goes up QUICK. Are we to blame that they're poor? Maybe. Are there large amounts of cash that could be opened up to help them? I'm thinking of a certain cave-hopping billionaire who could have actually helped his people, not just arming them... Again, NOW that we are there, maybe we can help. We (America, Britain, and our allies) ARE trying to help.

 

 

Right, but in my opinion, what the USA is doing is fighting terrorism as a result of poverty, not SOURCES of terrorism - which is poverty. Fighting poverty is not done with an army. The current policy in my opinion will not help, because even if the US army somehow manages to kill all terrorists there are, people will remain poor and such a situation will spawn a new generation of terrorists - and another war on terrorism.

 

 

You know, if he did that, it would prove that he is as stupid as you accuse him of being. And yes, if he did that, I would be ashamed I voted for him.

 

 

Why?

 

 

But, that hasn't come up. Plus, I wouldn't think it'd help the oil companies any, who are so-called "raking in the money".

 

 

So... you are actually admitting that the war is waged in favour of oil companies, not in favour of democracy and well-being of the Iraquis?

 

 

But, you also have to realize, that if such a thing came to pass, and no commotion over it, there would be 535 other people (the entirety of the US Congress) looking for jobs, come January, if not sooner.

 

 

If I understood correctly, you are saying that such an event would turn the American society against the Republicans, which would result in losing the elections. In that case, God help (some) Americans with their short-sightedness.

 

P.S. Smeg, why doesn't my quoting work???

Edited June 15, 2005 by Mireille

[reciproque]

Back to the pig skin burka thing, I found the articles gross and distasteful, especially some of the comments. The religion of the terrorist is only incidental, fanatism and faith are two very different things. Mocking this one aspect of their beliefs, which is innocent and that millions of perfectly pacifist people who condemn terrorism happen to share is just so disrespectful and not the way to go.

 

I think such propositions, even under te disguise of humour, only show some deep rooted prejudice against islam. But then it's true I m forgetting that for some people the war against terrorism is really a crusade.

Edited June 21, 2005 by reciproque

[Mireille]

Back to the pig skin burka thing, I found the articles gross and distasteful, especially some of the comments. The religion of the terrorist is only incidental, fanatism and faith are two very different things. Mocking this one aspect of their beliefs, which is innocent  and that millions of perfectly pacifist people who condemn terrorism happen to share is just so disrespectful and not the way to go.

 

 

But Putin has oil and gas so no-one cares. <_<