Monsters & Weapons & Armor!

[trollson]

One observation (of many)...

 

The relationship between brute strength (might) and damage does not hold true for all melee weapons (only really crude crushing weapons?). Although for heavier weapons fatigue is the more serious issue in long fights (as I recall from my re-enactment days...).

 

It would be interesting, and may add variety to fighter physiques, if some weapons where capped in terms of might-bonus damage, but used perception to increase the change of critial hits.

 

Take for example slashing/impaling weapons, such as dagger and rapier. Increased strength should not increase the damage they can do beyond a certain point, but perception and coordinate (already a factor) could increase the change of a critical, hitting a weak or vital part and impaling.

 

Back in my AD&D days (80s) we modified the (then) combat rules to include the 'speed' of weapons and the encumberance of armour into a variable attack rate. This had dramatic effects on the Fighter types in our group(s) -- as some abandoned the heavy armour and great swords for nimbler rapier and leathers. It added a lot more flavour and variety to a game that was getting rather steriotyped and stagnant.

Edited July 1, 2005 by trollson

[FRoGkiLL]

A sugestion

 

New annimals : Tigers and maybe birds ( to hunt with ranged weapons)

new monster : Skeleton using ranged weapon

New item : some thing that when u die it revives u but on half EP and MPN

New weapon : rifle , pistol

new magic : magic missle

new event : sometimes be attacked by bandits when traveling from one continet to another

174590[/snapback]

You'v been playing baldurs gate that game is so good. Roja,ent maybe you should buy baldurs gate.. lots of idea to be drawn from that

 

Im saying again i think dragons should be implemented and different sizes of them like there is with gargs but they look completely different from each other (colour,shape,size and looks) The largest should be stronger than a chimm and it takes at least 5 people to kill it with weapons and magic

[roren]

I surely dont like rifle and pistol, this IS a midevil game after all.

175692[/snapback]

 

well, early muskets DID come out during the later medieval times (or was i reneseanse? i forget) , but they took a long time to load and fire, and were useless in close-combat. Then later, bayonets were made so gunners would have a chance of survival if someone got close. So a musket could work as a polearm with a special attack that has a low chance of hitting.

 

i was thinking that you could only shoot 1 bullet every 10 minutes or so, you would need to use food points for it, and bullets are extremely expensive, so not many ppl would be able to use guns.

 

amazing what kind of stuff you learn when you watch the History channel alot

Edited July 1, 2005 by roren

[roren]

and, im not sure about this, but early grenades were also developed around medieval/ reneseanse times, so they could be another possible weapon. How they would work, they would spread out damage in say, a 3x3 square, and do an even amount of damage to every character (monster or player) within the blast area, but the more targets are hit, the less damage is done. just an idea

[roren]

now that ive done weapon ideas, heres some armor, weapons and monster ideas:

 

monsters:

dragons, demons of some sort(mostly for quests), human like things, like, badit, a randon event mercenary, etc. some sort of uber-monster with, like, 5 arms, 3 heads, fire breath, and extremely high stats that only high lvl players will be able to beat. or better yet, needs multiple ppl to kill, so for example, you could have an event with your guild or a party of friends to go out and slay the beast.things like, mythological creatures, such as werewolves or vampires.

 

Armor/weapons:

plate armor made of steel or titanium. more matirials for diffren armor/ weapons. enhanced armores, so they have special attributes that make it much more powerful. and for weapons, you could add other things like silver, essenses, magic, etc so it has special attributes, like a special ingrediant that gives you an edge over certain monsters. for example: you could lace the metal in your sword with silver so you could have an edge over thing like the said werewolves/ vampires from my suggested monsters. putting special attributes would also greatly decrease the chanse of success, no matter what your manufacturing/ crafting lvl.

Edited July 1, 2005 by roren

[trollson]

Early guns and grenages

 

The problem with early (late medieval) guns is that they where often more dangerous to the firer than to the intended target -- with terrible accuracy and a prepensity to explode in your face.

 

Comparing these guns to, say, longbows -- the longbow has a greater range, rate of file, and damage, but requires a highly skilled user. You had to force you peasants to practice archery every Sunday if you wanted a competent archery detachment. Or recruit Welshmen.

 

If you really want 'firearms' and 'bombs' in a fantasy-medieval setting, dress then as magic items. Black power was the work of devilish Alchemists at least!

[roren]

guns: thats basicaly (dont remember how to spell it) what i said. but i like the idea of the shot having a chance of backifiring, that could be an interesting twist to firing a shot. Having a chance that the weapon would backfire and hurt the user, the high price of bullets, and the time it takes to load, it would limit greatly the number of ppl who would use it while pking. and, an idea for making bullets, making the actual bullet would need a high manufacturing lvl, and you could make gunpowder using alchemy. then you could use the bullet and the gunpowder in the manufacturing widow and have it fire like a spell.and, for having a gun, you would probably need a very high archery lvl before you can effectively use it, or use it t all.

 

bombs: fo bombs, having it hurt the user if he/she/ it is in range would also limit the number of bombs being used. if it hurts the user, then most ppl would be reluctant to use it if the person gets to close. and, having timing involved would also limit the number used. for example: first, you use the bomb with a fire ess to arm it, then, you have maybe 10 seconds or so before it explodes, which means you hyave to find a target and throw, within 10 seconds , or it will heavily damage the user. plus, if the target come within the blast range of the user, the the grenade will be useless, and if it is armed, thn the user will have to get rid of the bomb before it explodes, therefor making it useless, and a waste of amunition. and one more thing that goes along with the bomb, if the target is killed by the bomb, any armor/ weapon that is flamable ( staffs, leather-based armor, etc.) would have a chance of being destroyed, again, making manyppl reluctant to use bombs exsessivly.

you could also make it ossible for high-lvl alchemists to make bombs. i was thinking that you would use black podwer, leather, thread( for tying it together, and acting as the fuse), fire ess, and wind ess to make a bomb. as for arming it, use a fire ess with it, and have a time limit before it is used.

 

 

as for a name for bombs/ guns, bombs: take "the Holy Hand Grenade", from Monty Python, The Holy Grail.

Guns: muskets, fire stick, magic staff, etc.

Edited July 1, 2005 by roren

[trollson]

guns: ...you would probably need a very high archery lvl before you can effectively use it...

176034[/snapback]

 

Wrong way around -- the point of guns (and to a lesser extent crossbows) was that they moved the skill requirement from the front line soldier to back-room industry.

 

Gun use was essentially unskilled. The inherent inaccuracy of the early gun meant that hitting the target was mostly a matter of luck (and aiming at big targets nearby!) -- you cannot really learn from the experience to improve a related skill.

 

If early firearms where present in EL they shouldn't require any skill, since the weapons were so inaccurate that skill didn't come into it, but their use would require a knowledge to be learned. They would be more akin to rings as usable items (maybe require gun to be equipped, 'use' bullet/charge item).

Edited July 1, 2005 by trollson

[roren]

so you're saying that for guns, instead of higher lvls to matter, you need to read certain books to use, and possibly a ring of some kind to fire it? interesting...

 

but you seem to have missed the point of my other ideas, like need ing a high archery lvl to use it as to limit it's use, so any newb that creats an account will become unstoppable if he/she/it somehow comes across a gun. this was also the point of the other things i said, like needing a bullet, gunpowder, fire ess, and 10 min between shots to load so that gun's use would not become widesoread, therefor making other weapons obsolete. if the person just needs to read a few books and a ring to fire it, all someone has to do is stock upon rings, either by buying them or crafting them, would become unstoppable overnight.

Edited July 1, 2005 by roren

[trollson]

so you're saying that for guns, instead of higher lvls to matter, you need to read certain books to use, and possibly a ring of some kind to fire it? interesting...

176040[/snapback]

 

Nearly but not quite...

 

Their use could be treated in the same way that rings are used -- that is, the skill in a 'ring of damage' is applied in its construction, not in its use.

 

Imagine that a gun consists of two parts -- the weapon, which must be weilded as normal, and the bullets and charges, which we could merge into a single 'shot' item. The shots are stackable, and carried (in the quick access boxes). The character fires the gun by 'using' a shot.

 

This gives the possibility of different types of gun while keeping the same shots.

 

Whether a knowledge (ie, book reading) is required before a character can use a Gun is another matter, depending on how we may restrict their use (other than restricting their manufacture).

 

...but you seem to have missed the point of my other ideas, like need ing a high archery lvl to use it as to limit it's use...

176040[/snapback]

 

No that was the bit I was objecting to. The point of guns was that they did not require high levels of skill to use. Given that a bow in the hands of a skilled archer is a far more potent weapon than an early firearm, why would anyone use the gun? Less damage, less range, less accuracy...

Edited July 1, 2005 by trollson

[roren]

but you still seem to be missing my point. the reason i dont like the idea of just being able to fire shots off in quick succetion, is that even though they dont have a very high chance of hitting, anyone, nomatter what lvl, can stock up on tons of shots and become nearly unstoppable, because if you get tons of shots, and take into account how much damage they would do, anyone could kill a high lvl player fairly easily, because if they get lots of shots, a few of them are bound to hit, no matter hao bad the odds are. so i said you need to have lots of lvls, items, luck, and possibly some other factor, to stop the widespread use firearms so PKing would still be controlled by the person with high lvls, not the guy who somehow scraped up enough money for a gun and lots of shots

[roren]

The point of guns was that they did not require high levels of skill to use.  Given that a bow in the hands of a skilled archer is a far more potent weapon than an early firearm, why would anyone use the gun?  Less damage, less range, less accuracy...

176042[/snapback]

 

the other reason guns became fairly popular in the middle ages , other than how little skill it took to effectively use, was that it could punch through iron armor fairly easily. In fact, early guns were the one of the reasons we developed steel. steel was lighter, stronger, and, most of all, it could withstand gunfire.

 

a bow was still more effective against average soldiers, but again having lots of ppl being able to effectivly use a weapon that could kill noblmen if their heavy armor was very a very attractive prospect in the middle ages, when , if you were a soldier, and you knew there was a knight on the battlefield, it was pretty safe to say you wetrent coming home after the war.

Edited July 1, 2005 by roren

[trollson]

... anyone, nomatter what lvl, can stock up on tons of shots and become nearly unstoppable ... anyone could kill a high lvl player fairly easily

176044[/snapback]

 

Who said anything about a quick rate of file? Guns have a slow rate of fire (compared to longbow), though possibly higher than a crossbow (depending on type).

 

You can already stock up on 'ring of damage' if you wish. Do you see this as a problem in the current game? The control here would be the same -- supply of the weapon and the shots.

 

As for killing high level players easily; that was a consequence of firearms once they became developed enough to be reliable weapons -- any peasant could pick up one and take out a Noble Knight. ...which, incidentally, is why I don't like them in fantacy/medieval games!

Edited July 1, 2005 by trollson

[roren]

You can already stock up on 'ring of damage' if you wish.  Do you see this as a problem in the current game?  The control here would be the same -- supply of the weapon and the shots.

 

As for killing high level players easily; that was a consequence of firearms once they became developed enough to be reliable weapons -- any peasant could pick up one and take out a Noble Knight.  ...which, incidentally, is why I don't like them in fantacy/medieval games!

176047[/snapback]

 

first of all, the difference with guns, and Rings of Damage, is that Rings dont do very much damage at once. anyone with some decent healing pots, spells, or a fast regeneration cloak will be able to heal the damage taken from a ring before you find your next target. with guns, depending on how lucky you are/ the power of the gun, it could easily take out an average PKer if anyone picked it up. and, since rings dont do as much damage, the person would have to be an extremely fast clicker to do any serious damage before he target gets close.

 

second, i was saying that IF we did get any kind of firearm, there would have to be tons of ways to limit their use, BECAUSE, as you said, anyone could pick one up and kill a noble knight, without any training whatsoever, because it was based completly on luck.most of the ideas i said were ways to limit their use.

Edited July 1, 2005 by roren

[trollson]

first of all, the difference with guns, and Rings of Damage, is that Rings dont do very much damage at once...

176051[/snapback]

 

We haven't established what damage a shot from a firearm would do. My guess would be moderate damage but with a high critical damage (as an impaling type attack). Early guns did not have a very high mussle velocity -- a sling shot was actually faster and carried more kinetic energy -- but like the bow required an awful lot of skill!

 

Possible outcomes of firing a shot:

• 
  
• Fail to fire (don't lost shot) (high probability?)
  
• Gun blows up in face (damage self, may lose gun).
  
• Miss wildly (most probable).
  
• Hit, flesh wound, moderate damage.
  
• Critical hit, high damage, ignore armour etc.
  

Even if fire rate cannot be limited further than the 'use' limit (1/sec), then the effective rate of hits can be limited by adjusting the 'miss' rate. Since this is not a skill dependant process, the only factors here are probable the weapon used.

 

Since the character is wielding a gun instead of a melee weapon, they would also be handicapped if directly attacked.

 

A lot of this would depend on how missile weapons in general are to be implemented.

 

Anyway my original premise was that firearms are a bad idea in this type of setting, and it is best left to magic to occupy this particular niche. However, it is interesting to try to work out how they could be introduced without unbalancing the game. Time for sleep...

 

Addendum:

I do see your reasoning roren, but I feel that if guns (hand cannons) required a high skill to use it would make them something else -- such as the effects of spells, which may be a better interpretation.

 

There use or effect can be limited in other ways while allowing them to fit into the same technological/economic niche without having an overwhelming impact.

Edited July 2, 2005 by trollson

[roren]

and also, one of the other things i said was that a gun/ musket/ whatever it ends up getting called, is a cross between a pole arm, and a ranged weapon.the way i recconmended, it has a blade on the end, so it's a spear or halberd, with a special attack to fire a bullet and have a chanse to do major damage.

[Kala]

I think that (if/when) we have vampires, we should be able to fight them for experience, but then have to equip a wooden stake to kill them (I wouldn't mind being Kala: The Vampire Slayer and having my own show on FX :lol:).

[roren]

lol

 

but, it would be good to have some sort of monster that you can fight continuosly for exp. makes it alot easier not have to find a new target aery few seonds

Edited July 2, 2005 by roren

[Starman_Omega]

MONSTER IDEA: I would really like to see Formed monster armies, kind of like civilian armies. They would have crude armor and some weapons, and could be used during invasions or Role-Playing Battles in the game.Something Like the armed goblins....we could have armies of orcs, skeletons, and more!

 

Animal Idea: Maybe A Goat or dare I say...Llama?

 

WEAPON IDEA: Maybe weapons could have basic upgrades or tools to upgrade with, like at a blacksmith there would be an automatic sharpening stone....could upgrade the weapon(if it is a sword or plade or metal, anything else could get something. arrow tips and spear tips would apply.) for a short amound of time, giving it a boost. Also Spears, and Halebrads are acoo l Idea, maybe at the gate of each city we could have Guard NPC's that Hold such weapons and can prevent some from entering(blacklists:P)

 

NPC IDEA: as I said earlier, guards would be cool, and maybe just regular people on the street that you can talk to, with a pre programmed response, like RPG's do. Most of the cities now are barren, but they are getting better.

[Leo_Leo]

You could add Poison to daggers and other maces !

[gilthanas]

Animal Idea: Maybe A Goat

178531[/snapback]

 

you will make ggm happy

Edited July 26, 2005 by gilthanas

[karel27]

I have lot of ideas.

1.monsters and animals

Thief-It should be bit a stronger rabbit, but still weak.And they should live in villages and towns. They dont attack players but they steal their money,

if u kill thief then u will get jour money back and if some one else he will get that money. should be living in all zones

Bandit-Bandit is much stonger than thief, but they attack pleyers, but not everyone only those whose overall is over 20. live near roads and all zones

Barbarian-Stronger than bandit.Attack players who have overal more than 40

live in all zones and near roads

Pets would be nice thing and players can buy then from pet shop an every player can have one pet with him\her. Pets could be trained

Cat-cheap(500gold) pet can kill rat and if u give cat lot of food it will get strong to kill rabbit

Dog-not so cheap as cat (1000gold) but dog can kill snake, fox , rabbit, rat

and if u have trained it it could kill deer and attac or kill other players and thief

Horse- most expensive pet (3000gold) but u can ride on horse and riding with horse is 2xfaster than on foot

if u dont use your bet u can put them in to some animal store

2.Weapons there where few guns in middle ages and this game dosent need guns it is better without guns

NEW skill Ranged, can use ranges weapons, such as:

Bow-normal bow dosen't give any bonus to shot but it fires fast

Longbow-long bow has long range and BEST ranged damage bonus to arrow(+10) but it has minimum range and fire rate slower than other bows

War bow-allmost like normal bow but gives damage bonus to arrow(+5)

crossbow-only uses a steel bolts, has better range than war and normal bow but smaller range than long bow. has best aim in ranged weapons

Ammo for ranged

wooden arrow-cheapest arrov in game dosent to any damage to players who have metall armour

iron arrow-better than wooden arrow and can go thougth the metall armour

steel arrow-stronger than iron arrow

titanium arrow-strongest arrow in game

steel bolt - can be used only with crossbow has bonus aginist metal armours has less damage aginist non armored players

NEW skill throwing use to throw weapons:

rock- weakest throwing weapon good range

knife-better than rock but less range can be used as melee weapon

wooden spear- best range in throwing Weapons can be used as melee weapon

iron spear- moore damage than woodwn spear can be used as melee weapon

steel spear-stronger tha iron spear

tit spear-best spear

iron throwing axe -can be used as melee weapon less range than spear but more damage

steel throwing axe-stronger than iron t axe

tit t axe -strongest throwing weapon

3.melee weapons

(tit,steel iron wooden )pike-like spear but longer and can not be thown

(tit, steel -no iron )helbard-stronger than pike

wooden club and iron mace

tit 2 handed sword- stronget weapon in game but it has low rate of hitting

 

So thats all and sorry for my bad english

[karel27]

but that gun idea is bad i thnik its still middle ages.

but i have armour ideas too

(tit,steel,iron)scale mail armour

full steel armour for knigts-heavy armour for knigts and can not be used on foot

only if u are riding on horse

there would be new helmetstoo

 

 

 

 

 

 

karel2z@hotmail.com

[Benvolio]

i got a kewl idea, how about something like angels hair armor, its really really strong, and it weighs 0 emu

[Guest da_cool_1]

On the thought of horses... these could add many dimensions to the game

 

First of all extra carrying capacity. Maybe 200-500, but with this i say we bump up the price way beyond 3k maybe 10-20k. Also horses cc could increase as it grows older and is used, and could be affected by your might?

 

New horseriding skill: low levels you get dropped off the horse contantly losing experience and maybe dropping items the horse is carrying? Possibly have a horseriding school. Horse riding skill would also affect the next idea

 

Mounted Fighting: Could fight from horse with polearms as mention in beggining of topic and use armor to heavy to use otherwise. Horseriding skill affects your ability to fight mounted.

 

I think there should be horse books as well:

Introductory book (like metallurgy or biology)

riding book (allows you to ride horses to go faster)

Pack horses (book allows you to use horses to carry more items)

Mounted fighting (allows fighting from horse back)

 

first two books would be required for each of the second two.

 

I dont know if this would be possible with the way the game is coded but it would be really cool Post your comments and pros and cons for this.