clmates

Hi. What about to use this data to implement variable NPC prices? you coud also get items per map for example: Wolf furs NC = 12K WS = 5K etc this could make NPC in NC pay less than NPC in WS, thus giving some variability to the game. This stats and recalcs could be done once a week (game), and affect prices with this frequency Also, i don't know if is possible to use this kind of database to store a data for each natural resource. This could be used to store the amount of resource available and the growth rate of this resource. With this you can implement resource limits and players will need to look for other resources alternatively, to let the resources grow. This will make people not use always the same locations for harvesting, or mining. Also this total amount of resources could affect the total per map evaluation to drive NPC prices. This could be controled once a day or also once a week. Is not important to be a precise value or not to get underrun in real time, because is only a indicator to affect prices and if a resource goes to negative, the growth rate is evaluated at day end and this resource do'nt get positive value, this day could not be used. (the user get a resource empty message) this staticstics per map and resource could be published to let the merchants act. Also this could be combined with day messages like iron shortage in VOTD, etc. this could also allow for more NPC in every map.

Hi. If you want to "move" the economy, think on this suggestions: 1. Tax on storage usage => the storage npc taxes you 1/100000 gc / emu stored a day (is not much for each player, but think the global amount recauded). 2. Tax on emu carried on boats (1/100 gc / emu) when you use a boat you should have the gc necessary or you won't be allowed to use it. - a newbie could begin the game with 30 gc that will be enough for the NPC quests, because each travel will cost 1gc (if the emu carried dont exceed 100 emu), later they could sell flowers, or food to npc, and the tax is low. This will give more attractive to teleport rings. It also is a low cost for each player, but a good global amount 3. Allow the players to be tired (the will have to rest) :-D - for each day a player dont rest they will consume 10% more food, and they will regain mana at a 10% less speed than normal. at ten days it will no recover mana, and can't make any activity that consumes food (manu, craft, alch, etc). you can also decrease the efective nexuses or attributes (defense reduced, attack reduced, etc, this could change the pk panorama) NO Potion could evade rest!!! - the player can only rest in a town or city (in the tavern or in a Inn), and they have to pay. there could be several prices and levels of rest.: - to only regain rest. - to regain some level of mana and food. - to be full of mana and food (this menu includes some potions :-D) This will become a massive gc drain. In all three cases you could think on thing to do with that money, but it has no much sense, because it would be usual to pay for this services, no benefit should be derived more than the use of the service. You also could enhance the storage service, ie: you could pay a higher % to use a bigger storage space (more slots). PS: i will also like the global tasks ideas, and of course the priest blessings and the religion taxes (in spices or gc)

Hi. Why "be forced"?, ones will make FPO and sell to other players and/or Mira. high level players will buy them because they will get more profit by selling high level items perhaps this could allow to reduce cool down times, limited resources => limited mass production. with 500 players who wants 4000 Leather helms? if you get real money with high level items why make low level ones? if you makes high level items require low level items as ingredients (step manufacturing, alchemy, potion, summoning), this would create a market for low and high items. Also manufacturing several units at once could be implemented, why not could make 2 FE at once if your alch level doubles the one required? double the ingredients and make two at once? or reduce time required to make in function of your level and required level and get rid of cooldown. Also focus more on ingredients and make use of less food on manufacturing, alchemy, potions and the rest make food level be positive to manu, alch, potion , etc but not to consume food. Link the food rate consumption to the activity (and to the weight carried over your weight capacity): Walk consume more than sit harvest consume more tah walk mine consume more than harvest fighting consume more than mining alchemy, potion, magic and summon consume like harvest crafting and manufacturing consume like mining of course summon will use meat, but not specially food. Open your mind ..... :-D

Hi. No, only more valuable, and players shoul move and don't over explot the same resources again and again. Why using food, make feasting potions, they will be valuable since are limited, price can go up and make them profitable. Why NPC must control the prices? This is part of the game, more people play, more people make things, market flows and adapts, not mantain it artificially giving unlimited resources at fixed prices. Remember, limited resources, expoiling flowers resources won't give money, because they need to have time to grow again. Don't think only on yourself, thin on the gameplay. All players must play and enjoy regarding their level and own choices. Low level players must have things to do to survive in the game, get profit (low), and enjoy. High level players must have other things to do, enjoy and get profit (more profit). Low level players should purchase certain items from mid or high level players, adn viceversa. Think on it. Multinationals buy items from small bussines, and sell high technology or heavy equipment to small bussiness. People buy things from every kind of enterprise, and sell their work to every kind of enterprises (resouces and why not jobs). it's a general clamour that economy is not good, this is a open beta, why not to give a try? Hi. um.... no, just no. That would make the really hard levels once you pass the recommended levels of the last items (i.e. harvesting, alchmey) close to impossible... the exp curve makes it hard enough once you get a high level. edit: ooh, I just noticed I'm a #beaver, #beaver be praiseth! (sorry =P) Perhaps minimun levels should be revised, or new resources could appear. why not make harvesting gold or titanium need high level, or certain flowes or certain gems. why everyone could harvest all at 0 level? the same could apply to every hability. or skill. Why you can alchemy almost everything with level 30? why this not happen until level 50? also, not reaching the level doesn't mean you cannot make it, only you fail more, but when suceed you gain much more exp. think on it.

Hi. The solution is not to put flowers out of the game. The solution is to fix the economy system. Make the resources LIMITED Make each resource spawn have a GROW rate and a HARVEST rate each spawn has a limited stock, if exausted it needs time to grow, and people will harvest or mine at a lower rate from this bush or mine. thus people will go to search for fresh low populated areas to get more resources. Make the NPC to have a Limited Stock of Harvestable, Minable, Alchemable, Manufacturable, Craftable and Potionable (i left none i think),items. They only shoud have the units other players sells to them Make the NPC prices vary in function of his map stock resources. (proces based in the production or harvest time of the goods) People could act as merchants selling goods form one map to another to get profit. It's ridiculous that the value of harvestable goods is based only on his weight, think on Pb being more valiuos than silver in real life!!!! Or think in the flowers prices, any relation with his harvest rate or his number of spawns? Ever played a resource based strategy game? **************************************************** The same could be applied to the knowledge system. a user should gain more experience in the first times of a task that when he has repeated the same task 10000 times. What experience gains you by walking every day?, but a 12 month baby gain a lot of experience from his first steps, and keep gaining experience until he firmly walk, but no new experience or only a little after that. thus if level 24 of a skill is recomended for a task, you should gain more experience when you do this task and your level is below 24. you should gain standar experience in level 24 and you should gain little experience when your level is far up 24. a inverse relation with level is needed to affect the experience gained. for example: 75% level = 125 % experience 100 % level = 100 % experience 125 % level = 75 % experience What are doing this top 100 buddies making low level FE? or Leather Helms? They should buy this low level items from low level players and make high level items to sell low level players. Also i think that the step manufacturing system proposed in the general chat whould be a good point as a complement to this changes, but this step system will fix nothing if resource limit, price system and exp system is not fixed. Exp system and economy system are very related, and boths should be adjusted. Thas my 4 cents (2 + 2 :-)

Hi DC. I'm still in GOLD, and a few ones also. Why do you not take over GOLD? And continue this once great guild? If you talk to Radu, perhaps you can become the guild leader, instead of making a new guild, or your new guild is not going to be like GOLD? If you are not interested, perhaps i'm going to ask Radu if i can become the Guild Leader, if None of GOLD opposes to that. Greetings.

Hi to all. Here is a copy & paste of a post i made in suggestions forum at the begining of this year. ***************************************************************** Well I have an Idea of how to implement a system to dinamize prices. Here it is. First lets make a few consideratons. 1. What elements should define the prices of the items? Base cost modified by supply and demand (lets analyze this later) 1. What "kind" of items exists in EL? A. Harvestable items no knowledge required B. Harvestable items knowledge required (Minables items) C. Manufactured or Alchemy made items knowledge and other materials required. 2. What is the Base cost of items? Base cost is the cost needed to harvest or produce the item, and could be determined by: A. Work hour cost * time to produce B. Work hour cost * knowledge needed * time to produce C. (Work hour cost * knowledge needed * time to produce) + Prime Materials cost Thus A and B could be grouped in B if knowledge to produce = 1 in the case of no knowledge needed. The knowledge needed could be directly tied to the recomended exp level. (minimum = 1 for no knowledge needed) The Work hour cost could be directly tied to the skill needed to produce (harvest, alchemy, crafting, manufacturing, potion), and to the cost of the related book. (as a multipliying factor) 3. How we could Make variable the availability of Harvested or Mined Items? (now they are infinite!!!) A stock could be set up in every harvest or mining zone. Also a grow rate should be defined (how many new units per second this zone grow) A Harvest or mine speed hould be defined (how much time is needed to spend to mine an unit, or units mined / harvested per second) The grow speed should be lower than the harvest / minig speed, because the grow is constant and the Harvest / Mining is variabe in function of the players use of this resource. Also several players could be mining or harvesting the same resource. With this, the players will need to go to alternate resources when the stock goes to low. Also market prices for this items should raise when the availability is low. Note that the Total Available for a Harvested or Mined items should be calculated whit the units in the players or storages, not in the harvesting or minig zones. 4. How we transform this base cost in market price? The market price is not determined by the production cost. Is determined by supply and demand (taking in consideration the base cost), but could be under or upper this base cost. Supply and demand could be determined by availability. by making availibility a variable factor, we could dinamize the prices. The NPC could calculate the selling price of an item taking in consideration: - The Total Available of this item - His stock of this item - The base cost of this item. - The "kind" of item. The NPC don't need to calculate all this factors for each transaction: The total Available could be calculated in a daily basis and used for all NPCs during this day. His available stock should be evaluated in every transaction. NPC Stock / Total Available = % Market Share The base cost of an item is a fixed value (an ideal value for each item), thus no calc needed. The kind of item could mark the base % of profit for each item, for example: Harvest items = 100 % Alchemy items = 150 % Potion Items = 150% Manufactured Items = 180% Crafted Items = 220 % (this values are only examples and should be balanced). Also we can make this more variable by calculating the Total available in a map zone basis, this would make diferent prices for each map. Hey you could become a merchant buying in one market at low prices and selling in a market at high price!!!. If this approach is taken, the storage items should count as availability in every map zone. Finally lets take some examples: Work hour costs: Harvest = 1800 gc => 0,5 gc/second Alchemy = 3600 gc => 1 gc/second Potion = 3600 gc => 1 gc/second Manufacturing = 7200 gc => 2 gc/second Crafting = 14400 gc => 4 gc/second Book Multipliers = research (minimun = 1000) / 1000 Knowledge needed = (level of knowledge + 1) / 10 base cost examples: Red rose = 0,5 * 7 /10 = 0,35 gc (harvest rate of 1 / sec) Blue lupine = 0,5 * 2/10 = 0,1 gc (harvest rate of 1 / sec) Red SnapDragon = 0,5 * 1/10 = 0,05 gc (harvest rate of 1 / sec) Sulfur = 1 * 15 / 10 = 1,5 gc (harvest rate of 0,5 / sec) Iron Ore = 1 * 24 / 10 * 2000 / 1000 = 4,8 gc (harvest rate of 0,5 / sec) Coal = 1 * 22 / 10 = 2,2 gc (harvest rate of 0,5 / sec) Fire Essence = Red Rose (0,35) + Red Snapdragon (0,05) + Sulphur (1,5) + (1 * 1/10) = 2 gc (alchemy rate of 1 / sec) Iron Bar = 3 Coal ( 6,6 gc ) + 2 Fire Essence ( 2gc ) + 7 Iron Ore ( 33,6 gc) + 2 * 23 /10 = 46,8 gc ( 2 secons to manu 1 bar) NPC market prices: Purchasing Red Rose = 0,35 * (1+(NPC Stock / Total Amount)) = 0,35 * (1+(20000/350000))= 0,37 gc Total Amount of 350000 and NPC stock of 20000 Fire Essence = 2 * (1+(NPC Stock / Total Amount)) = 2 * (1+(50000/320000)) = 2,31 gc Total Amount of 320000 and NPC stock of 50000 Selling Red Rose = 0,35 * 2 * (1+(NPC Stock / Total Amount)) = 0,35 * 2 * (1+(20000/350000))= 0,74 gc Fire Essence = 2 * 2,5 * (1+(NPC Stock / Total Amount)) = 2 * 2,5 * (1+(50000/320000)) = 5.775 This could need some work to balance but will make the market very dinamic. *********************************************************************** I also agree in reducing the monster drops to non manufacturable items, combine this with a system like described above and you get a powerfull economy system. This system will allow fluctuating prices and to estabilish markets. Making the natural resources limited should be not too complex, developers only need to "store" 3 data for each resource (stock, grow rate and harvest rate) Hope this help and makes me forget the lupines for ever :-D

Hi. I think those values should convive hith higer values, making low exp quest convive with high exp quests. Thus low level players can try the low level quests, and high level players the high level quests You can also make nested quests for high level players, ie : first 2000 iron ore then 30 steel shields, third ..... up to your imagination Also it whould be a great enhancement if for each monster killed, you could get an item (not used for anything special, but as a probe), ie: you kill a gob, you get a gob skull or hand, or skin, etc (like you get a rabbit fur when killing a rabbit) thus you could use this items for quests, bringme 50 goblin hands or 30 wolf furs .... this whould be also useful for potions, ie: potion of goblin strenght => you get the a/d of a goblin potion o goblin appearance => you are ignored by all goblin type monsters perhaps this all stuff should go in other topic :-D

Hi. Take a look at the thread books and experience, a teaching systems was proposed in the line you are pointing.

Hi. Thanks :-) yes, i think that a try is a must, the effects could be monitorized and the values adjusted "on the fly", to correct grow speed, hourly costs and productions adn harvest speed I think that the harvest speed is good, not need to lower it, i think that making the sources limited instead of unlimited should make the difference and variety. And the market prices would vary in function of the in game stocks. To balance my propossal only a calc sheet is needed to put all the game items and estabilish their relationships, later only the hourly costs and production / harvest speeds needs to be adjusted. plus new items could be added and balanced in an effective way.

Well I have an Idea of how to implement a system to dinamize prices. Here it is. First lets make a few consideratons. 1. What elements should define the prices of the items? Base cost modified by supply and demand (lets analyze this later) 1. What "kind" of items exists in EL? A. Harvestable items no knowledge required B. Harvestable items knowledge required (Minables items) C. Manufactured or Alchemy made items knowledge and other materials required. 2. What is the Base cost of items? Base cost is the cost needed to harvest or produce the item, and could be determined by: A. Work hour cost * time to produce B. Work hour cost * knowledge needed * time to produce C. (Work hour cost * knowledge needed * time to produce) + Prime Materials cost Thus A and B could be grouped in B if knowledge to produce = 1 in the case of no knowledge needed. The knowledge needed could be directly tied to the recomended exp level. (minimum = 1 for no knowledge needed) The Work hour cost could be directly tied to the skill needed to produce (harvest, alchemy, crafting, manufacturing, potion), and to the cost of the related book. (as a multipliying factor) 3. How we could Make variable the availability of Harvested or Mined Items? (now they are infinite!!!) A stock could be set up in every harvest or mining zone. Also a grow rate should be defined (how many new units per second this zone grow) A Harvest or mine speed hould be defined (how much time is needed to spend to mine an unit, or units mined / harvested pres second) The grow speed should be lower than the harvest / minig speed, because the grow is constant and the Harvest / Mining is variabe in function of the players use of this resource. Also several players could be mining or harvesting the same resource. With this, the players will need to go to alternate resources when the stock goes to low. Also market prices for this items should raise when the availability is low. Note that the Total Available for a Harvested or Mined items should be calculated whit the units in the players or storages, not in the harvesting or minig zones. 4. How we transform this base cost in market price? The market price is not determined by the production cost. Is determined by supply and demand (taking in consideration the base cost), but could be under or upper this base cost. Supply and demand could be determined by availability. by making availibility a variable factor, we could dinamize the prices. The NPC could calculate the selling price of an item taking in consideration: - The Total Available of this item - His stock of this item - The base cost of this item. - The "kind" of item. The NPC don't need to calculate all this factors for each transaction: The total Available could be calculated in a daily basis and used for all NPCs during this day. His available stock should be evaluated in every transaction. NPC Stock / Total Available = % Market Share The base cost of an item is a fixed value (an ideal value for each item), thus no calc needed. The kind of item could mark the base % of profit for each item, for example: Harvest items = 100 % Alchemy items = 150 % Potion Items = 150% Manufactured Items = 180% Crafted Items = 220 % (this values are only examples and should be balanced). Also we can make this more variable by calculating the Total available in a map zone basis, this would make diferent prices for each map. Hey you could become a merchant buying in one market at low prices and selling in a market at high price!!!. If this approach is taken, the storage items should count as availability in every map zone. Finally lets take some examples: Work hour costs: Harvest = 1800 gc => 0,5 gc/second Alchemy = 3600 gc => 1 gc/second Potion = 3600 gc => 1 gc/second Manufacturing = 7200 gc => 2 gc/second Crafting = 14400 gc => 4 gc/second Book Multipliers = research (minimun = 1000) / 1000 Knowledge needed = (level of knowledge + 1) / 10 base cost examples: Red rose = 0,5 * 7 /10 = 0,35 gc (harvest rate of 1 / sec) Blue lupine = 0,5 * 2/10 = 0,1 gc (harvest rate of 1 / sec) Red SnapDragon = 0,5 * 1/10 = 0,05 gc (harvest rate of 1 / sec) Sulfur = 1 * 15 / 10 = 1,5 gc (harvest rate of 0,5 / sec) Iron Ore = 1 * 24 / 10 * 2000 / 1000 = 4,8 gc (harvest rate of 0,5 / sec) Coal = 1 * 22 / 10 = 2,2 gc (harvest rate of 0,5 / sec) Fire Essence = Red Rose (0,35) + Red Snapdragon (0,05) + Sulphur (1,5) + (1 * 1/10) = 2 gc (alchemy rate of 1 / sec) Iron Bar = 3 Coal ( 6,6 gc ) + 2 Fire Essence ( 2gc ) + 7 Iron Ore ( 33,6 gc) + 2 * 23 /10 = 46,8 gc ( 2 secons to manu 1 bar) NPC market prices: Purchasing Red Rose = 0,35 * (1+(NPC Stock / Total Amount)) = 0,35 * (1+(20000/350000))= 0,37 gc Total Amount of 350000 and NPC stock of 20000 Fire Essence = 2 * (1+(NPC Stock / Total Amount)) = 2 * (1+(50000/320000)) = 2,31 gc Total Amount of 320000 and NPC stock of 50000 Selling Red Rose = 0,35 * 2 * (1+(NPC Stock / Total Amount)) = 0,35 * 2 * (1+(20000/350000))= 0,74 gc Fire Essence = 2 * 2,5 * (1+(NPC Stock / Total Amount)) = 2 * 2,5 * (1+(50000/320000)) = 5.775 This could need some work to balance but will make the market very dinamic. Well sorry for the long post. and for my english :-D

Yes, this is a very polemic and interesting theme, but i'm sure that there is not easy to implement a realisthic and balanced solution. Thus a compromise solution could be implemented. Is up to the developers to evaluate the idoneity of this ideas and the best implementation approach. In terms of balancing market prices, is there another topic and i think the ideas appoint in the good direction. In fact the price of each NPC should be based in the stock they have, the total game stock for this item and the production cost, but well, better post in the topic post. PS: I don't put the title in front of the person :-D

Hi i don't think so, reading a book it's not automatic, usually take a lot of time, so i hope people will trade their non interesting area books for the ones of the skill they want to improve. and about relating experience to the practice... how many books (and not only once each book) do you think an engineer should read to improve? The improvement is gained when the engineer put in practice the knowledge learned from the books. Read book => more knowledge Practice => more experience if you only do practice without reading the book, you get experience, but in a minor rate, because you lack the knowledge of the basics that give you the vision of the foundations of that experience. when an engineer read a book of fluid mechanichs it gaings knowledge about fluids, but it also gaing knowledge of oscillations and harmonics. gain knowledge, but no experience. when this engineer do a task based on oscillations he get more experience after he knows fluids mechanics, because he got more foundation of the use and it's related knowledges. IMHO. PS: i'm engineer ;-)

Hi But they do give you special knowledge, it is just not that obvious. The Anatomy book is a prerequisite for reading more books down that particular knowledge path. This means that you lack the basic knowledge of a more "advanced" book until you have read the basics, or starter books. Exactly!!. You have more base knowledge that others that hasn't read any book, but, does this new knowledge not give you any advantage from your practices? Because you have more knowledge of the basics, the related habilities should deliver more experience form their practice. ie, when you have the theorem of pitagoras knowledge, you don't already know structural mechanichs, but when you practice a related hability such as static, the theorems helps you understanding the composition of forces. => the basic of phishics (geometry) This example could be applicable to anathomy, is a requisite for Health essence, but it should help you to understand better the basics of alchemy, thus givin an experience boost (up to a base level) tho the lower alchemy uses. Other application is combat tactics, could give a exp boost up to a basic attack and defense level to the combats you have with low level enemies (because you know base tactics you learn better from your practice) This could be applicabe to almost all base knowledges. Hi. Ok, that could work with some tweaking. I am leaning towards liking it Well, this is not exactly the same, this not relate the experience to the practice, i think this is a worst option people with no interest in the ability will read the book because is trading gc for exp with no practice nor waste of materials.

Hi. I'm refering to the teaching, not to the experience boost, for teaching 20 seems to low, perhaps 50 is too high, what about 30? And for the exp boost, yes the book Health essence should not give you any boost, but what about anathomy, or the low level books you need to read before?, i'm refering to these books that give you not special knowledge. Perhaps this could lead to the aparition of other books that only give you some "master" in a already known skill. What about of a Mastering Heal Essence book, that after reading it gives you a bonus making HE? or a Iron Secrets, that gives you a bonus over all iron manufacturing?. The exp boost or % of success bonus have a lot of potential.