TirunCollimdus

Selfish and greedy? Read Entropy's original post again and the reasons for the change. The effects he is looking for will not occur and the game will be less fun for most people. The fights are too short already to allow for a great deal of strategy and a complex combat system is what Entropy and I think the best players want to have. You must be a fighter who doesn't do anything else and probably a PKer. In case you missed it there are other attributes in this game that players need to have. Forcing everyone in the game to push coord, phys or both to the exclusion of everything else is already a problem in the game. 'Wasting' pick points does not have to be on perks. There are people who want to have a lot of nexus so they can do a lot of stuff. We have a new skill coming and don't really know what attribute will best serve it. There is more to EL than phys and coord and it is time for this fighter centric view point to take a back seat. We are adding new skills and all of the attributes have finally been made useful. New and useful perks have been added and needed nexus points are getting ever higher. Changing restoration to make the game better is not a yes or no question. Most posts have been about alternatives and alternatives are NOT what this thread is about. The thread is about changing restoration as per Entropy's suggestion. The thread is about changing restoration to fix the problems that Entropy has mentioned. That is what the replies on this thread should be about and any alternatives can be put in the suggestion section where they belong. I voted no because I don't think that Entropy's change will fix the things he wants fixed in a way that will be good for the game. A new level based spell with restoration unchanged at a higher level is the only way I can see to fix the problems Entropy is worried about and still keep the game fun for everyone. That however is something that should be in the suggestion forum or another poll should be made. As suggested this change will not work without making things very bad for either new or old players. Adding more to the game instead of taking away is always better so I say we realize there are not enough people left to vote that could make a 15% swing for the no vote. Close this poll and make another or just start a suggestion thread or general thread to change the restoration spell as it seems a majority would like a change but not this one. TirunCollimdus

Doh.. If someone plays this game for a longer time, like some years, i guess, they expect that not every newbie can kill them with 2 hits. Yes, players who play for a longer time *ARE* powerful, thats a fact, and i would be bloody annoyed if that isnt so. What would be the reason to play for a longer time instead of getting powerfull/rich/experienced/whatever? Do we want communism, everybody's running around with 50 healthpoints and a rusty iron sword and nothing more, because some players *may* be better/more powerful/rich than others? Piper Piper taken out of context that does look like a dumb thing to say. If you pay attention to how the game works you notice however that the experience systems allows new players to catch up close to the oldest of players. I know of players fighting for only six months who are close to 100 def. New players can catch up to some degree if not actually pass some of the strongest players if they have a better strategy and are very persisitent. The point of my statement was that you could not get even remotely close to the older players levels if this change was made no matter what strategy you used or how persistent you were. My post did nothing remotely resembling suggesting that all newbies should be able to compete with the long time players. Your quote spoke to nothing that was spoken to in my post about why changing the spell would be wrong. The direction of my post was that people would never see those levels no matter how long they played because no one would work that hard to get them. DOH!!! TirunCollimdus

This idea as has been stated as making the strong stronger and the weak weaker. This is exactly true and it will kill PK and lots of people at lower levels who worked their buts off to get CoLs and MoLs may quit playing or quit fighting. Any way you look at it, the end of most fighting in the game would be the result of implementing this change. Mana is currently far to hard to recover to allow changing restoration to a weaker or higher level spell. It has become so easy to remove mana from players that PK is impossible without full restoration. There is no way for the lower level players to even begin to dream of getting to where the higher level players are and you would wind up with arena fighting only except for the strongest players on mostly empty PK maps as has been stated. If guard bots were subject to this same limitation it would make them nearly useless as well or impossible to level for the use they are wanted for in the first place. Only the strongest players in the game would make good guard bots if this change is made. The only way to change restoration at all, and there have been good suggestions, is to change how mana is recovered in the game. EMPs have to be made very easy to make and lowered to 5 emu or you have to provide a new way to recover mana that is comparable to restoration for health. Making normal mana regen set at 10 per minute instead of 1 per minute would restore mana fast enough to accomodate the reduction of the effectiveness of restoration but then how would the other spells be effected? We don't need shorter fights and we don't need the game getting harder for lower level players than it is for higher level players. That is a sure fire recipe for drying up any games list of players. TirunCollimdus

Ralloszek is exactly right about how this will not solve any of the problems that Entropy says exists. I am not posting about restoration because I voted no and the problems Entropy stated are not being addressed by everyone who is talking about the spell itself. Is there something wrong with restoration,` is it too powerful at the level it is at? That is a topic for debate that has been covered before and it would be cool to do again in a thread about magic and how it effects the skills aspect of the game. This is not about how it affects the magic skill; as Entropy said it is about fighting and loot. Too hard to kill people? This is exactly what everyone wants. Long fights are more fun for everyone and more experience so losing and breaking items during fights is not as irritating because you get something(more experience) for your efforts. Long fights mean that there is a chance to try different strategies during the fight too and fighting is more complex than just walking up and wacking someone and they die. Short fights just suck. Fighting less and running to storage more is also more work and less fun as many people have mentioned many times. The bronze sword can shorten fights and increase the number of trips to storage already so why make fights even shorter again. You take away the experience and the fun from PKers and the game falls flat IMO. Too much loot in the game from long spawn runs. Not solvable by changing restoration. People will start hbagging spawns with supplies instead of running to storage. I am one of the persons who would do that. The cost of a couple of keys as compared to losing a spawn is nothing. The more players you have in the game the more loot there is in the game because when a spawn is empty because of a storage run then someone else steps in and uses it so there is effectively no reduction in loot dropped anyway. Either people bring extra stuff with them and bag it or they have someone else haul it in. Yes some time is used moving things from storage but if you make on sight you can move it straight to the spawn instead of storage with no time lost. The problem is not how long people stay on spawns and even if it were there is no way to fix that except to make monsters get gradually stronger the longer you stay at a spawn. I can have guildies, friends, or just someone from market channel bring me stuff at a spawn instead of going to storage. I have had guild mates help me stay at spawns already so it is nothing new. If there is too much loot then there are too many drops. I don't want reduced drops but it is obvious Entropy wants to reduce the loot so there is nothing we are going to be able to do to stop that from happening. Either we have reduced loot or he puts in more stuff to sink money into. I vote for the more stuff. I say we get back to Ent's topic and stop trying to talk about what is good for the magic skill so the voters know what is really going on. TirunCollimdus

Well, people can discuss an idea, and if they disagree, it isnt flaming. kk. The usefulness of the perks and how the relate to the new way the game is played because of the abilities and attributes that get implemented in the game most certainly do change how you view perks. Archery added to the game can make a change for I Glow In The Dark and it could definitely change the Self Destruct perk too. You can keep them the same just for game mechanics to make things simple but they would make no sense at all responding to archery the same way they do to close quarters combat. If I dis someone or something who is almost dead and then get to max range and shoot them I would not expect to take damage from them and those two perks. The point is that even if they don't change if you want to use more points on attributes because there are more useful attributes to be implemented then somewhere you might change your mind about perks just like pick points and nexus. This is apparently off topic though even though for some reason the NPCs and items that would remove pick points and nexus are not. I guess suggesting NPCs to trade off pick point removal on a 2 for 1 basis instead of whether or not we should have the stones in the game is still relevant to the poll as were all of the other ideas that did not include perk removal even though pick points were the topic in all cases. Constructive criticism is by definition criticism without ridicule of someone or something involved. Flaming by definition would then be any criticism that is not constructive wouldn't it? Disagreeing with someone can be done without calling their ideas garbage can't it? That means discussions can be had where people can disagree without attacking people or their ideas doesn't it? So wouldn't someone attacking another person's ideas and calling them garbage be flaming instead of just disagreeing? kk TirunCollimdus

Perks on the other hand do change and are not completely explained with everyone knowing all of the details about them. Artificer anyone? The encyclopedia was only wrong on that for what? 2 years? The fact that strategy of points needed and used over all is affected by total pick points available. If you are making a long term plan then whether or not you take perks depends on how many pick points you are willing to use. Perks are pick points. How many you use and are willing to spend is not completely separated from your overall decision on pick points. That is why they should be able to be removed as well but of course as I mentioned they would be a LOT harder to remove. If there stones for each individual perk you could make it that much harder too. You can make this difficult enough to make it worth implementing. TirunCollimdus

You don't remember it from the original post because it was my idea in the first place to add perk removal stones that could take off a perk if you had enough of them to add up to the total points for the perk. It happens to be a good idea that would make the stones even harder to get. The addition of the perk removal stones without increasing the total number of stones means that some of the attribute removal stones are replaced by the perk removal. This means attribute and nexus removing is harder because there are fewer stones available for it. The perk stones are useless when you get just one so that means the ability to change your character is reduced and not increased making all the stones more rare and hence more valuable. You would also have to work harder to get the stones you want. Just a question. Should topic fairies be flaming other peoples posts and ideas? I thought topic fairies were suppose to make forums friendlier places that aren't filled up with topic garbage like flames. TirunCollimdus

Punishing everyone to prevent abuse is the best way to make everyone who should be trusted unhappy. They took away all of the guns from everyone in Australia to prevent gun crimes. What happened? The crime rate went through the freaking roof because while all of the honest citizens gave up their guns the criminals didn't. IMAGINE that!!! If you want to prevent abuse limit the number of them in the game and don't sell them in the shop. How much they are able to be abused is entirely and directly under Entropy's ability to control. Trying to screw over honest people completely to prevent a VERY few who would have the wherewithal and the ability to abuse these items is not the way to improve the game. IMO don't try to micromanage anything let alone everything. That is how you screw up everything in the first place. The chance to reset would make the price drop to nothing and people who wanted to abuse them would find it a thousand times easier to do and if they were lucky they would get away with it. Why take that chance? TirunCollimdus

If they were implemented the way I suggested and then made so there were positive and negative perk stones then there would still be more than one reason to reset. As has been mentioned over and over it would take so much money to fix your character with RL money that no one would do it. The stones are just for long term changing of your character or making small changes. There willl be a huge number of people wanting them and a short supply. I will be resetting myself because I am going to completely change my character and including perks it would take over 100 stones to fix it. NO WAY would I or anyone do that with stones. It would take years just to get all of them. Even if I could buy them it would take that long to have that much money I could just throw away to pay for them. Reset will always be useful but it will become a strategy instead of an act of desperation. Strategy is what Entropy wants to add to the game. Actually choosing to use pick points for perks is partly because they could not be used for the attributes that were not implemented as well. Choosing what perks to take or whether to take them at all can also be influenced by how many pick points you need for your attributes. The whole strategy of what perks to take or not are based on your whole strategy for your character so there is plenty of reasons for perk removal both positive and negative. TirunCollimdus

My idea for the perk removal stone was that you would need one stone for ever pick point of the perk. If someone wanted to remove godless and antisocial it would take 18 perk removal stones. This would NOT be cheap and nearly impossible. They perk removal stones would be the most expensive and you would need more of them. There would be no way to take advantage of them. It would be just another way we could work around having to reset. It would be extremely hard to get the high point perks removed but at least there would be a way to do it. Just reread what you guys were saying though and splitting them into positive and negative perk removal stones would make removing perks even harder. Great addition. TirunCollimdus

Learn to read. I posted again my idea to have perk removal stones since people like you are too busy whining about RL money advantages over poor players who can't afford to pay for good stuff to actually make a suggestion of their own. Didn't hear you complaining that people who could not think of the best ways to train needed to be protected from those who could now did I? You said it "sounds fine". Wow where did you come up with that dazzler? Man can you really help support an idea!! You said it would cost huge amounts of money to make a difference in game and THEN whined about the in game price going down because of people who would spend huge amounts of real life money getting them. Even if my post was a lot of nothing at least it was not a lot of whining and a lot of stupidity. Thanks for your incredibly incisive input on my post though. Wow did it make me think. Grow a brain or just shut up Altantis. BTW was all of this short and concise enough for you or too long winded for you to understand again? TirunCollimdus

I think the best part about the whole idea is that there is a stone for each nexus and attribute. That makes the amount of them that are in game for each player who wants to use them that much harder to get a hold of the amount of them they need. This means that the prices of each individual stone regardless of type will cost more in the long run because they will be more rare in the long run. Don't want people spending mountains of money to get them then make it harder. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this idea. I would like to have Entropy add a generic perk removal stone that takes one stone per pick point to remove a perk so removing antisocial for instance would take 10 stones and they would have to be perk removal stones not the other variety of stones. That would be massively expensive because those stones would be the most sought after would they not? There is no reason at all not to implement this idea. People have been able to buy gold coin in the EL shop for a long time. They can already reset there character and buy enough gold coins to get the best stuff in the game and enough hydro bars to get every nexus for every skill IF they wanted to. They could also buy all of the ingredients needed to level up there characters in the schools by using ings bought with gold coin from the EL Shop. This is in effect buying levels just like buying these stones would be. The only difference is that they would have to actually spend time doing stuff to get their pick points to get OAs to spend on their attributes. So what is the big deal? There is a limited supply in game of hydro bars. Entropy has not said he is going to sell them. If their are too many in game he can reduce the AC drop rate. You people are just freaking paranoid. These stones would be great for the game econcomy because the higher level players would buy them from lower level players that found and did not need them. It would make everyone more interested in doing everything in the game for themselves to get the stones unless they already bought everything anyway. This means more positive attitudes and talk about the game in general and eventually more players. Vote yes and quit whining about imaginary millionaires paying tons of money to lord it over a free game. If they have that much freaking money why wouldn't they spend it buying the best character available on a game that is not in development? When EL is finished and pay to play everyone starts at square one on whatever server Entropy owns. Can we pay enough to get our characters transfered to the real game when it starts on the real server? Who knows? How could anyone be so ego driven as to buy the top dog spot in a beta game no matter how good it is or how good it is getting? Why not just admit Entropy has a good idea and quit being drama queens about how it could be abused with some Machiavellian plan? That is not a flame because it is not against a specific person it is against a specific problem. Entropy can fix things if they don't work so give things a chance instead of boo hooing from the starting gate every single thing that he puts up for an actual poll. TirunCollimdus

If I read it correctly the nexus works on nexus only and attributes work on attributes only. Not sure how that is implemented but it means you cannot buy nexus to get an attribute. You could buy an unlimited number of pick points with hydro bars if you could remove nexus points and use them for attributes but it would be immensely expensive to do this in game considering how much everyone knows being able to do that is worth. I am not even sure you can remove a nexus you have bought. I do understand however that Entropy would not put in game a way for anyone to buy unlimited OAs as that would be a game breaker. 500K per OA level would be experience but the people with 40 million in storage would be instand gods. Not going to happen IMO. TirunCollimdus

Yes!! Yes. I love it. I am asking about stones of perk removal. Takes number of stones equal to number of pick points for perk to remove a perk? What do you say Entropy? Please? This is a great idea and I hope as most others that these stones don't show up in the store but not because of the money and rich people this or that but because of the extra excitement added to the harvesting part of the game. Woohoo!!! It would be awesome. I saw the not in shop for the time being so it will be awesome while it lasts even if you do decide to put them in the shop. I will be on the edge of my seat all of the time. I love my harvesting reset. TirunCollimdus

My first reply to a massively old topic. I know that everything teranoz says here is spot on and still holds true. The only thing I am not 100% on is that your attack level increases your damage. Is it true that attack level adds damage or just indirectly makes it higher because you hit more often? If there is a post telling this I could not find it after a couple of hours of searching. Help please. TirunCollimdus

I was wondering why it is that people who took the scotty died perk have to use rings or essences when caught by a map bug. I thought the point of the perk was to get people to use rings and essences during normal game play to take those things out of the economy. I use rings during normal game play to get to IP and other places in Seridia because I took the perk. I have only encountered 3 places so far that I cannot trade with someone to get out of the map bug. I was told by Tanyia that if you have the scotty died perk and get stuck it is Learner's policy that after you have been warned and helped by the mods you will have to simply suicide and lose your stuff to get out. If you do not have a ring to get out with because you either forgot to bring a ring or you don't have one when you thought you did you are just out of luck. I would like to point out I was rather rude to Tanyia at the time because I thought it was simply the mods decision to refuse to help. I apologized later when I found out that this was not the case. That is why I am asking why there is an extra negative side effect to taking the perk which obviously is not mentioned in the perk description and does not seem necessary to the functionality of the perk itself. Just asking why decision to make the perk even more negative was made and if it is open to reconsideration. TirunCollimdus

Atlantis perhaps you should learn to read before you start making comments. Learner said: People taking the Scotty Died Perk are basically saying they aren't concenred with map bugs. ... Why do you think it is called a Negative Perk? Roja said: Come on, the perk is there so that you can't conviently use #beam me up! It has nothing to do with bugs as bugs aren't supposed to be there in the first place! Would you like me bold and high light the parts that are in direct contradiction for you too? They are completely contradictory. Just so you know I can make IP rings so I don't even need to buy them. The stated attititude by both Learner and Entropy was you get help once and warned not to get stuck again. They seem to agree that whether you get trapped, because you did not know that you were, near something that could trap you or you simply forgot to get a ring from storage(or back out of storage after putting it up) that you are going to have to suicide to get out after one warning. It sounds IMO like the perk has a LOT to do with map bugs and there inconvenience so my question is still whether or not the perk will eventually be removed because the bugs have been fixed. If Roja is correct and it really has nothing to do with map bugs then the perk stays. If the map bugs are supposed to be part of the penalty you are paying to get the pick points as said by Learner and suggested by Entropy then whether the perk is worth the 3 points and kept in the game is still a question. TirunCollimdus

My apologies to the thread and to Entropy. Learner is the one who said that. Did not mean to confuse anyone or make any trouble just tried to post from memory instead of rereading the thread. I guess I got confused because the one help thing sounds like it supports what Learner said about the perks and the bugs. TirunCollimdus

Entropy said that the perk is there to cause problems with map bugs and that is why it is a negative perk. I never mentioned anything about not being able to get out of a place I went to on purpose so I have no idea if you are talking to me or someone else. My point was about map bugs and Entropy said that was part of the price of the perk. There are places you can get trapped where people cannot reach you to trade. You can also get teleported under the ground in some places but so far I have been able to help everyone underground who has asked for it. No one is talking about intentionally getting yourself in trouble or repeatedly getting stuck somewhere because you are harvesting in a place all of the time you know can trap you. I specifically stated that I thought the perk was exactly as you described Roja and Entropy said it wasn't. I don't know who is right but if you are right and the perk will stay in the game even after the maps are fixed I will be happy to get it again since I can get myself out of anyplace that I can get myself into in the game. If Entropy is right and the perk is specifically about making life in EL harder because of the bugs then why can't I ask if it will be removed when the bugs are removed? TirunCollimdus

If you think that there are complaints about how many advantages players who are rich in RL have right now just wait till this got implemented. People with money in RL would just start buying uber stuff and people would start selling uber characters just like they do in all of the other MMORPGs. Paying for your levels by getting equipment or characters you did nothing in game to get is the same as playing AFK IMO. PK guilds could take lower level players in uber armors with uber weapons and kill the dragon with them over and over massively cranking out the att/def for the players and start making cheap armies. This would massively suck. It might be a cool idea to reduce att/def exp and give an O/A boost experience per kill that does not go to any skill because then you would be adding even more strategy to training and fighting. It would still get everyone in the game who fights monstrously irritated because you get a LOT more hits and dodges than you do kills when you are training. If this were used at all I would suggest it only for PK. That would reduce the effectiveness of pvp training and PKers would get more experience for killing each other and since they are all about killing the other guy as fast as possible this might actually help them. Making it easier to PKers or fighters to get more experience faster than they already do is still an insanely bad idea since the game is so tremendously slanted in the direction of fighting. Why not use the programmers time to make EL even more different than all of the other games out there instead of just another carbon copy with no real flavor of its own? TirunCollimdus

Okay. The perk is to make the game more inconvenient because you don't get help with bugs after your first warning. Does that mean you are going to take the perk out when you get the maps fixed? I don't want to loose my 10K gold if I take it again after I reset. You already proved that giving pick points back for removed perks works but since people would already have received use of the pick points there would be no reason to give back the money. I don't think 10K gold is worth it for something that could get removed at any time because you managed to get the maps fixed. I am sure others will keep getting it because they have better sources of money in the game but you do a pretty good job of taking money out of the game IMO so I don't want to buy it again if it can be removed at any time. Thanks for the clarification of why it is in the game and why help for any problems caused by it is limited. TirunCollimdus

This was a GREAT invasion. I loved the three tiered attack especially with the multiple levels being Willowvine. I thought it suited everyone and let a LOT more players enjoy a full invasion. It was a great idea and thanks to all who helped put it together. I was on the medium platform and a phantom warrior showed up but I killed it and figured it was a fluke but after I killed it all of a sudden 3 tigers appeared surrounding me. Pretty much instant death and odd that two sets of higher level monsters should come visiting me. My guess is that the 255 kills earned me an intentional kill by Mortos. Not sure because I was not around long enough to actually see if tigers were spawning elsewhere. Getting killed that way sucked if it was an accident but cool if it was intentional. I very much hope they keep coming this way. TirunCollimdus

I am sorry I was not referring to repeat offerenders who get trapped continuously. I only know of three places where a friend cannot help you get out as I mentioned in my post. If you cannot get a friend to help you get out then you need to find a friend or be more careful because the areas where you can be helped by a friend should not be the mod's responsibility most of the time even on first occurrences. You have a whole list of channels to ask for help in too. I was specifically referring to places that a friend cannot help you get out and then not on a recurring and habitual basis. I am sure that no one wants to post a list of all of the bugs that you cannot get out of even with a friend to help. I was asking about getting surprised by places you did not know have problems. If the perk was made to reduce the amount of times the mods had to rescue people because then I think a warning in game would be a good idea. I have had the perk since it was first implemented and gotten stuck where I could not get out 1 time. I am usually pretty careful. Anyone who gets stuck repeatedly in the same place should have to suicide if they don't have a friend to help or are continuously getting stuck in places they know trap them and cannot reach anyone to trade at. I don't need a baby sitter and I was not asking for one. I was asking about when you make a mistake or you get caught off guard by a place you did not think could trap you. The mods volunteered to help not to babysit and that is the way it should stay. Having it to where you get one shot at one place however I think is a little bit on the rough side since the game is really big and it is not possible to be perfect. TirunColimdus EDIT: Just reread the post by Entropy and saw that he said one rescue per location. That sounds fair to me but I was under the impression that you only got one rescue even if you did not know there was a bug there. Thanks for the help Entropy.

If we are going to vote on this instead of you making it the way you want it Entropy I think you should only choose the ideas that do the least to help fighting and the most to help harvesters and makers. I know there is probably a lot of support for the magic stuff but doing that you still loose charm out of the game and no way to replace it. The constitution idea is another help for fighters and duplicates toughness which we already have. We have fast regen spots in the game so I think there is no need for a cross attribute that speeds healing. Along that line we already have conjuring capes and for reduced cost on summoning. Why not make items like staves or armors that are weak att/def but reduce casting costs. That is a much better solution than throwing charm right out the window. I think everyone should focus on the idea that there has to be room for roleplaying in Eternal Lands so that it can find its own brand of interactivity. Yes role playing between players is part of the game but the game is just a shooting gallery with a chat room if there is no interaction with the environment as well. I hope this is the most important consideration in the discussion of removing charm completely. TirunCollimdus

I fully agree with trollson on this subject and the potential of charm in later development would be a huge loss for EL. That being said I also think the statements about the attributes that charm comes from giving it a survival aspect as well as charm. The idea that you could reduce food cost for making things would break the game how if you take the survival aspect of the attributes that charm comes from, to give it the survival side effect, and lose the idea that it increases toughness in some way you have another prospect. Want people to spend pick points? How about the survival aspect of the charm cross attribute is that it increases the total amount of food for your food bar. You can heal longer and harvest longer with out having to eat. This would be a very popular use of pick points that would be better for manuers/crafters than it would be for fighters and it would only add 1 point to the food bar for every two pick points. 20 pick points for 10 extra food. Using bones or toadstools for food you could make 65 of single food cost items. Having this benefit is much more like an attribute than a perk as it mimics might and rationality increases. You have have it increase the food bar by 2 instead of one if you think 1 is not enough. It does not seem like a big deal until you start thinking about making thousands or tens of thousands of things like thread, polished gems, and essences. Plenty of other things as well it will make a difference on. It has a limited effect on mass production due to the limit of how high a food bar increase you get. The newer items in the game are using enough resources to start taking out mass production already as well as the time people spend to make the ever increasing amount of high level items. A larger food bars is something a lot of players want and if you connect this benefit along with the things trollson mentioned then you have a definte draw for pick points. The charm against will to avoid PK and any of the economic ideas combined with an ever increasing food bar would make charm a very attractive attribute and really have people start making choices with character building especially with perspective coming in soon too. TirunCollimdus EDIT: PS It wouldn't hurt to have it reduce the chance of a no drop from monsters though I really think perception is more suitable to any adjustment on how much stuff you find or avoiding the no drops from monsters. Not getting anything after killing a fluffy just sucks.