Burn
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Posts posted by Burn
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Interesting. No names named, but people are putting their foot in the shoe themselves. Does it fit?
I want those dragon stats down so I can fight them too. I haven't earned it, but I am entitled according to the logic that it should be for everyone.
You don't want to level your skill in hunting, but you're entitled to find it anyway. (Or wait, if you don't play, you're not even going to do that if it was sat on your lap on a silver platter.)
Thousands of excuses given on almost every subject brought up when the subject means actually having to earn the ability to do something. Happens every time, usually to the detriment of the subject.
Go ahead, change it. See how dull and pointless it gets.
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We really should hear from some of the Big Book mixers, they're the ones who heavily use the Action Point potions, thus the pears since that's the pear's only use.
Specifically, the cost perspective. Are we looking at turning these books back into something only bought at the NPC due to ing price?
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Then it's not for you. Just like invances, pk, neno hunting, instances, and high-level invasions aren't for me. There's other things for you to do in-game, there's no validity for that to be a reason to ruin things for those of us who can, and enjoy the race/competition, which btw this really is the only "race" in the game. It's very unique and different in almost every aspect from everything else in the game.
Which is why it was appealing from the beginning and I still find it fun to do, whether I find it or not. There's an actual challenge to it.
But, past experience has shown everybody ends up wanting everything the same. You'd think you'd get enough of that from the daily grind.
You people really don't get that you're also making an attempt to suck the life out of a competition to the point you're gonna end up getting bored and stop if you do get things your way. Then not only will you not be looking anymore but those of us who actually enjoyed it are left out.
But, that goes along with a previous poster's spot-on statement, that this is also meant to punish those of us who have earned the experience.
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Economic viewpoint: A team of even just 2 people will eventually figure out that they'd have been more productive gc-wise harving iron, esp. when they find they can't sell the pear because these suggestions put the cost too high to make them worth buying. And they'll quit. Team actions have also already been tried and failed.
(And the ex-players who can't/don't play any more are starting to arrive to play their personal vendetta games, not actually caring about the subject just trying to screw things up, so the poll is no longer going to show any valid opinion.)
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Getting "Ebul": What we're gonna do is, since these people over here have done well and worked hard, we're gonna take the value out of the effort they put into being so well, and distribute it among these people who aren't willing to put in the effort even though they can!
Yes we can!
*wins the election*
</gettingebul>
Though seriously, that's exactly what it is, and feels like on this end.
I haven't worked hard enough on my a/d to kill a dragon on my own, can we have their stats dropped so I can? ... What? What do you mean those who can earned it? I'm entitled!
No conspiracy needed for the price btw. The longer it takes, the higher the price. At least one of my buyers is possibly concerned about this, having bought more today since this thread started than they normally do in a week. (So I guess a thanks for starting the thread, I needed some gc at this time, hehe.)
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iirc that info was provided to the site via Gossip who is now gone. They'd need a new bot to continue updating (or work out something to use mercator or teh_master possibly).
http://holy-eternalland.de/mercatorweb/ Mercator's page has more recent info.
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Yeah, that's pretty much it.
The learning curve for someone starting now might besteeper that for the first hunters
I'd disagree on this one point. The learning process (fastest routes, where are the harvables on each map, getting through the maps checking harvs efficiently) is the same no matter who or how many hunters there are. Which is why I have kept saying that even today, anyone can join in if they're willing to put up the effort, time, and gc like we did.
Once that's gotten to a certain point, where the player is just as efficient in doing those things as myself/mala/stivy, it's all up to luck. These days whether you see my name or mala's (and improving by the day Stivy) really is luck, and well, who's online at the time. Anyone who takes the time and effort to go through the process will just get their name put in with ours, as to who finds it "out of luck".
Luck in both finding the map quickly (with 40+ minutes to check all, it could be first for one person and 50th for another), thus starting harv check quicker, and as well, luck in being the first to stumble on the correct harv.
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Yethq, a regular basis is not needed. I am sure some people will try a pear finder or two a day or occasionally and accidentally find a pear if they feel they can be competitive. It will eventually sparkle more interest. Think of it as a service to the community.
Something that simple can be done as it now stands. Someone did it in KF (last week I think) publicly on 6.
There's 100 or so maps to check, that any hunter checks the specific one you're on early on is a crapshoot when you're talking about 40 minutes or more to run through them all. Try one, try one in an internal harvable map nearby. You're almost guaranteed to be the first to try that map at start of a new day.
(There was, for example, a time just a few days ago that I spent quite a long time, using 73 finders, only for someone to find the pear before I even found the map. That's not uncommon, and part of the price of being a hunter.)
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The "lack of incentive" won't change with this. As I explained in the bottom of my previous post.
If you truly want to hunt and benefit from finding pears, you are going to HAVE to pay the exhorbtant starting learning curve that those of us who find it now have already paid (and Stivy is currently still paying despite several finds).
The incentive won't change with this. Us "same people" who have already paid that steep cost will still be finding the overwhelming majority of them combined, for the sole reason that we've paid the cost involved. People using that as their supposed excuse will still be using it.
There is absolutely no avoiding paying that steeping learning curve cost of gc for finders, time, and true effort learning fastest methods and learning the maps.
For that reason, it's not for everyone. (Just as invances/pk/Neno hunting/etc. aren't for me.) Not everyone will have the ability to do everything in-game. And the unwillingness to put that effort in is the one and only hindrance to being a hunter. Suffering through weeks of watching others find them when you're trying to look. I did it, despite malameo's "monopoly" at the time. Stivy is doing it now despite Mala and myself. There's nothing stopping anyone else as well other than unwillingness to pay that price.
Too many people would rather have something rare tossed in their lap than actually put effort into it.
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Be very careful implementing anything that may cause a price hike, they may be made "not worth it", completely nullifying their value. Not saying this would do that, just be careful in that area. Reminder that only a maximum of 4 can come into the game on any given real life day as it is, with less when they get deemed unreachable or show up on a map like White Stone with slim to no chance of being found.
"Fair" is already implemented, in that nothing gives anyone an advantage over anyone else other than willingness to actually try, and overcome the very steep learning curve that costs a lot of time and gc. The same curve those of us who do find it now also had to endure.
The "I want it all, I want it cheap, I want it now" mindset is primarily what keeps others from finding it, nothing else. The unwillingness to spend weeks failing to find it (just as I did) spending an untold amount of time and gc perfecting the hunt method. The real cost for this rare item has to be paid upfront, and few are willing to do that.
There is currently a very fine economic line that could easily turn pears into something that's never used at all, like so many other things in-game.
The economic perspective in keeping them actually useable has to be the first consideration, not the unwillingness of others to put in the effort a few have.
You're still not changing things with even this suggestion. Say it was implemented. Mala, Stivy, and I likely find 3 of the 4 pears as we've already paid the learning curve price noone will address. That leaves 1 a day, assuming 1 doesn't end up unreachable.
(As it is, I normally get 1 a day anyway, maybe 2, others mostly going to mala, stivy, unreachable, or the occasional rare other person. Not a real difference here.)
And that's still up to 4 times you'd have to try, failing most of the time.
The only thing that can change that is people being willing to go through the expensive, time-consuming learning curve, like we did. But rather than do that, people keep suggesting ways they think will make it easier on them, because putting effort into something has always been an issue in this game.
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"Most less than 20 minutes" is not true, a falsehood that's been distributed by people who happen to see those times blue spammed, but don't notice when it takes an hour or two. The former gets wtfs, "hax", and other stuff posted by people in 6, the latter normally gets no response adding to the falsehood belief.
Some Real Numbers
Actual number stats based on last 98 hunt attempts (direct from my LibreOffice Calc file):
Average time before found (whether by me or not): 26 minutes
Which by definition of average, half the attempts took more than that time. Thus "most less than 20 minutes" is not true.
(Only slightly off in that this only includes hunts I was online and attempted.)
Fastest find: 1 minute ... lucked out in that it was the first map I checked, and in the 3rd harvestable checked. (Naralik catacombs)
Longest time to find it (by anyone of those 98 times): 93 minutes (by me, Willowvine Forest)
Number of times it was eventually declared unharvable (of those 98): 7
Longest time wasted with noone finding it: 150 minutes (PV, at that point declared to be unreachable with 4 of us looking. Everyone had given up by this point.)
*note that's 150 minutes wasted with no gain to show for it, the kind of thing people who don't look don't take into consideration
Actually, that last part not quite true. There was that one time 8-10 people tried to find it on White Stone with noone finding it. I didn't participate in that so it's not included in these stats.
Would this affect the hunters? Not really. It'll make it more difficult to bring the price down as time spent on the hunt gets included in the price, hurting the people who actually use the pears, but not much else. I'll remind that 70kgc is a pain threshold for their cost based on sales experience. I brought it down the past month 63kgc (and a discount to that for my regular customers) with plans to drop it more.
Be very careful implementing anything that may cause a price hike, they may be made "not worth it", completely nullifying their value. Not saying this would do that, just be careful in that area. Reminder that only a maximum of 4 can come into the game on any given real life day as it is, with less when they get deemed unreachable or show up on a map like White Stone with slim to no chance of being found.
As Raistlin said, it's map knowledge that's a primary factor. Many have spent their time "closest to sto" or "best training spots". Those of us who have taken time to actually explore and look at the maps over the years are the ones who are now reaping some benefit from having spent all that non-leveling time. It's the ones who haven't done that who are doing most of the complaining. They didn't "level" their map knowledge because there's no experience to it, and until the pear finders were added, little benefit. Their complaints would be comparable to me complaining I can't mix a white wizard hat because I haven't leveled tailoring high enough, just there's no actual "skill level that adds to OA" involved.
(And with both Stivy and Malameo regularly hunting and finding them along with me, I'm noting the more personal nature that is actually behind some of this already showing here by only me being mentioned above. Bad news for those voting for that reason, you're already on a level playing field, all this will do is make a slower level playing field.)
BTW, radu, in reference to your question above about finding it fast despite cooldown, my "1 minute find" above would be an example of that. But still, randomness dictates that could happen to anyone.
Some people came up with very efficient ways of finding the pear, and most people gave up searching because of that.This actually says more about why there are so few finding them than anything else. There's nothing stopping others from finding that "efficient" way as well other than unwillingness to spend the time, effort, and gc on it that we did. This cooldown if implemented won't change that, it's "player mentality" at issue, not function. Stivy's "late entry" into the hunting competition is proof that it can still be done if actually tried.
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164 amber donated, now "1200 Amber and I have 310"
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Horses have horse blankets to keep them warm, why not have a similar thing for the mule
Nothing against this idea in itself.
Thinking more on a broader perspective though: Radu is currently working on a full reworking of the server ("gl2") including newbie starting points and possibly other big changes.
For that reason changes to the current server are more likely to occur if they're easier to do.
Adding a new item to the game (which in this case would require a new graphic which can only be done with a client update) is more time-consuming than just tweaking the stats a bit.
For that reason, I'm not opposing the idea of the blanket, just suggesting the stats tweak may be a simpler and quicker solution at this time, esp. since there's afaik no plans to have another client update before the "gl2" server is done.
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I prefer my solution to this "problem".
Since Stivy has proven there's no actual monopoly, just noone else trying and that when they do they can change things, the players themselves can actually "break the monopoly" by trying instead.
http://life-is-etern...-find-pear.html I wrote the solution to this not-actual-problem two months ago. When I did see other hunters back then, they got PM tips from me on how to improve when they asked, attempting to encourage them to continue trying. (Though I stopped doing that after someone tried shoving it down my throat they used my own advice "against me".)
All I see here are people making attempts to punish others *for being good at something*, for actually having taken the non-leveling time to learn maps (which should be encouraged), put to use things in-game that don't get often used (speed hax), giving those with high inorganic levels and harvest levels an actual benefit.
Normally things are changed because they're bugged, not because a select group of people took the time to actually be skilled in doing them.
I fail to see this as anything other than an attempt to punish a few people who honed a skill just because others won't take the time to learn it. That's not a valid reason for change. There's no bug, just noone willing to take the time we did to learn (to "level" the skill), noone willing to go through the "heavy fail rate" just as I or stivy did to improve and fail less.
Yes, that part is incredibly difficult. I know, I did it. But it's a rare item, there should be an amount of difficulty in it.
And that's why I'm against it. I worked hard to hone this skill, and I've tired of people who refuse to put that same effort in trying to put that effort to waste. As absolutely nothing is done that can't be done by anyone else in the game just by putting some actual effort into it, there is no problem to solve here. Those who want to be part of the hunt can hone their hunt skills just like we did.
The supposed monopoly only exists because noone else tries. Not because the supposed monopolists are using dirty Microsoft/Apple-like tactics. That's impossible. The only thing stopping any player from "getting in on the action" is their own willingness to put in the time and effort like the rest of us, including the fail time. And yes, that fail time can be costly in both time and gc. I know, I paid it, and earned my ability to hunt.
I could have just given up after weeks of failed hunting attempts, losing both gc and time, which seems to be the current course of most people if they try at all, but instead I chose to press on, keep "training", and earn my status as a pear hunter.
And btw, changing it to a treasure hunter style (yay, more exactly-the-same stuff in-game) won't change the supposed monopoly. Even treasure hunts have only a small base of people that hunt them. Those not willing to put in the effort will find reason to complain about that method as well.
ADD: Another perspective, those that actually buy/use the pears. I have a few regular buyers, all of which have been happy with the way I've handled the pears cost-wise. Because I don't use my bot to artificially inflate costs, just an extension for selling, I can keep a constant price for pears up. In the past month alone I've pushed the price down by 7kgc, and plan to continue dropping it within reason.
I'm not ****** (a certain person still trying to artificially inflate grape costs with his bot), but someone who's more interested in keeping items useful than my own greed.
The hunts are fun, and that's the primary reason I do them. And as a part of the "community", I've worked to intentionally bring the price of them down, especially after the grape price shock-hike that occured recently (which had a direct effect on pear sales since the only pear use requires grapes).
Extra gc from sales has also benefited the community. 2 Nobel day stones bought and used, and 2 more already bought for later use (yes, greedy on my part in that I need that day, but it benefits everyone). A Bad Day stone bought and used to remove Murphy a week back... 1 hour before I went to bed, when I was only mixing AEs so don't fail much anyway. I had no use for removing that.
I may have earned my position as a hunter, but unlike someone who'd try and keep the price artificially hiked, I know that would hurt their value and worked on lowering it. And giving back to the community by buying Bad Day stones for their benefit... though I'm feeling much less inclined to do that part after this attack on my skills.
But greed is not the driving factor for me. The fun of the hunt is, and yes I'll continue to vehemently oppose anyone who tries to ruin my hard-earned skill in hunting just because they won't put in the same effort, and what is my only occasional distraction from the "daily grind".
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Yeah, reasoning!
I'm against, doesn't seem it would change anything. However, should it be done:
1- latest 4:00, not 5:00. 2 hours is enough for fully checking all maps except 3 (WS, Ida, and AA Lothalith fortress) and those are a crapshoot if they're found even with 6 hours.
2- Anything that causes less pears to found, considering there's already a max of 4 per day and less when they go into unreachable places (as I type this the pear is in Portland, and not reachable) - will cause the price to skyrocket back up more than the 70k it started out at. 70k was a pain threshold for the price, and I've even been trying to bring it down. *If* it were implemented and this was the result, it would have to be reverted back.
Basically, no change can be made that will result in the price to going up without ruining the pear's value completely. And in the end, that's the primary consideration. (which is why I say 4 instead of 5:00, as 5 would definitely result in that happening.)
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This way can people not go afk and only return to the game at the time a new day starts.
Okay, I know I don't do this, I have too much leveling to work on. Does mala? Stivy? Or who? You?
Basically, the question is: is this an attempt to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist?
And If it actually is happening, does it really matter? If that's all they want to do, that's all they want to do, that would be their gameplay choice. I used to know people who'd afk until Lenny came out to hunt him, we never did anything about that. Harvers who'd grab harv points, then afk until the next hour. Their choice, their manner of gameplay.
I'm not as caring about this... I just don't see the reason to waste radu's time with it as this "problem" doesn't seem to be an actual problem. Pears sell to a limited extent, but they're nothing to solely live off of in this manner. I've found 133 of them and still keep finding myself broke... and that's with a hydro income as well. If someone actually is doing this "afk until new day" thing, good luck to them, it's a waste. (The only other person who could attempt to live off of this is mala, and even now I'm seeing him coming to storage in training gear, not afk.)
If he's going to change something, you need to state the actual reasoning and proof that it's needed. This doesn't seem to have any reason to it.
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Mmm, what Ghrae said, mules don't need armor. Lenny or whatever is a risk you have to take (and I, as I regularly mule as well.)
However... "mule getting frostbite" ... I don't mule through anything that gives cold damage. Are they getting this?
And if so, perhaps just a tweak giving them more cold protection would be better. After all, can't mules tolerate colder weather?
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I never said she wasn't entitled, that's Dilly's unfounded random-derail-attempt-post implication and nothing more.
I asked for the *reasoning* behind it, and the response to what this would actually do. Nobody seems to be able to provide that.
Which, actually, I'm helping *them* by getting them to post this. Nothing gets changed without valid reasoning.
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Updated, no more yew needed. Still buying other items.
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No, I said to STATE that experience, and in particular why it is relevant to this suggestion, as not a single person has provided any valid rhyme or reason as to why it needs to be changed at all. (Other than the ones that have just been too lazy to try at all, which obviously is not the thing here as this won't change that.)
Suggestions need to be based on actual experience, just as I don't make random suggestions to changing, oh, the Blue Dragon stats, as I have no experience with it to base it on.
If someone were trying to ruin a part of a game you considered fun, you'd expect some kind of reasoning as well.
I'm aware of her very early attempts, but not of anything current that would explain a sudden need to bring up this suggestion.
Also to state why there's a need to drastically hike the price of the pear when it already has a limited audience that certainly won't buy it at the prices this would cause. Essentially making them useless.
Also why the need of taking away one of the few things that actually relies on map knowledge in the game, hunting through all the various harvestables on a map, by using a treasure-find style instead that puts a complete end to that, it may as well be in a hyperbag like a treasure. The two things don't mix. If you want a treasure-finder style hunt, hunt the treasures.
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Pears
in Bug Reports
There have been more than enough off-topic posts, and even I have been unfortunately baited into responding to them. (Yes, I admit I am at fault at falling for the bait as well.)
That ends here on all ends, for everyone.
All further posts will be about the exact subject of a supposed pear bug, per the reason of this development forum. This is NOT a chat, it is a development forum where developers come to look for actual bugs in the code, not wade through random topics.
The basic requirements of a *bug report* are at the end of the previous message. Use them.
Any further baits to change the subject or actual changes to the subject will be removed. All subject changes posted prior to this are no longer part of this discussion. Stay on subject,
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Although:
The message is "This day's pear has been found" without mentioning name.
That one part I can agree with, since it was my idea. (fixed the missing apostrophe)
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Pears
in Bug Reports
And how long and far back was it I last posted in an official thread about pk change? Look long and hard, because it'll be quite likely *years* back. Opinions I post in any unofficial place or general chat are not relevant, there are different rules there (or none at all if referring to my personal blog).
Here, it is taking off the subject of a BUG REPORT. This forum is for the discussion of bugs only.
You stick to the subject here (*rule alert*). Subject changes are not permitted in this development forum.
- What is the BUG?
- State your personal experience with said bug (not what others do, but your personal experience)
- Why it's a bug
- What it is that needs to be fixed.
If you have no personal experience, you cannot possibly claim a bug.
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Pears
in Bug Reports
Seriously desperate responses here...
Someone said the pear hunt wasn't relaxing to them, and that's why they play. Noting that there are *many* other means of relaxing in the game and that a pear hunt existing doesn't take away from that is directly relevant if that's somehow an excuse that there's something wrong with the pear hunt.
What is the BUG of this BUG REPORT? Other than names showing in the blue spam.
If it's too easy, provide your personal proof. State how you've used the finders, how the pears have been too easy for you to find because of the way they are.
That's how you file a bug report.
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Pears
in Bug Reports
I don't like the fact you're calling 99% of the EL playerbase lazy.
No, just the ones who are whining, who fail to try themselves. Those who aren't trying, and don't care about it, are playing right.
3/4 of the playerbase don't even have 6 inorganic nexus.
2-4 will likely be enough as can be seen in my screenshots. It's random so it *can* show in stuff requiring more (and will, hydro comes to mind), but as can be seen I've found it the majority of the times in things like flowers, shrooms, and way too many times in branches.
Even still, this being a BUG REPORT, this is player fault, not a bug, if it shows up in something that can't be harvested because of a lack of nexus. This is a *harvester's* competition, a harvester should have all needed nexus.
I don't think you posting a HOW-TO guide on hunting pears actually caused your 'crap' treatment.
There's that "think" again without actual knowledge. The person I referred to specifically berated and belittled me because they used my provided info to get to the pear before me.
There isn't a bug with who finds it, it's just who can be bothered to run around maps for hours regardless of the 70k? price tag, idek how much they cost anymore seen as I don't really log onto EL. - THAT is not laziness, that is just using their time more productively so they dont waste up to 20k in pear finders for someone else to get it.
Then those who "want to use their time more productively" can do so, this is not their issue. If they don't want to "waste" the time, effort, and gc it takes to become a good hunter, and choose to do something else instead, that's perfectly fine, not everything is for everyone. This isn't their business.
Whining because I and others enjoy doing it and doing the hunt, despite the pear finder and time waste (do you people seriously think I don't waste them as well when mala or stivy finds it, or when it's unreachable, which happens all too often?) is hardly productive, yet so many continue to do it. This thread being the prime example of the lowest of low, trying to claim it's a bug.
And wait... I thought the problem was that it was "too easy" to find, taking less than 10 minutes. What are these hours you speak of, or is one of you finally admitting what my screenshots have proven all along, that it can take *much* longer than that?
Please get your stories straight.
Sure its a gc sink, but others think its a waste of time.
And yet those others keep wasting time whining about it. And filing false bug reports.
THE ONLY Lazy person is you. You can't be bothered to interact with other human beings (It doesnt seem like you want to, so correct me if i'm wrong)
Funny, the people I interact with on a daily basis, some of which I have for years, would disagree.
I intentionally don't interact with people who constantly troll and make a nuisance of themself. Huge difference. And yes, that's generally the most vocal 6:ers, where this nonsense that I don't communicate with anyone came from (trolls making up stuff as they go along just to troll, and here you are rehashing it), which is why I almost never post on 6 other than to moderate. I have no interest in them, and years of experience have shown their only reason for trying to constantly contact me is to cause problems. So no, I don't fall for the bait that leads to that crap.
Your lies notwithstanding, I and every moderator know your problems with me. In fact, it's your sole purpose for posting here. This topic would have no interest to you if I weren't involved.
And that's enough off-topic. The PK crap won't be responded to. This is a BUG REPORT about PEAR FINDING, stick to the subject. This is not general chat.
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Bad idea.
1) Takes away the only difference between it and a treasure hunt. We have enough exactly-the-same things in the game already.
2) Unlike a treasure bag which can be on any walkable spot, this would tell you it's in a nearby harvable. You wouldn't even have to be "hot", once you get remotely close there's only going to be a small amount of harvs it could be in. The "getting warmer" style used for finding treasure won't work with this.
3) As well, you're gonna extremely hike the pear price this way, a price which is already off-putting for many who may buy. Pear finders cost >>>>>>>>>>> treasure finder cost. I guarantee instantly hiking it to 300kgc if the current method is changed, working from that price up or down depending on the cost of finding it.
(I've been slowly trying to bring the price down. 7k less than it was last month already, and people who don't hunt or even use them keep trying to come up with ways to push it not only up, but excruciatingly painfully priced. And that is exactly what the end result of this would be. Suggestions are supposed to improve, not completely debilitate things.)
State your PERSONAL recent pear hunting experience that explains why you have the knowledge needed to know this change is necessary. Why you think pears should be so extremely priced. And why you want everything in the game to be exactly the same instead of having a variety so different people with different styles of play all have options.
I've provided actual logic and reasoning behind my "nay". Provide yours.
Pear finder cooldown
in General Chat
Posted · Edited by Burn · Report reply
Provide me some proof that everything in the game has to be available to do to everyone, regardless of their skill, and I'll think "outside my box".
I put a *lot* of time, effort, and gc into becoming the hunter I have. (Malameo has done the same. Stivy has done the same. Anyone else who truly wanted to hunt could do the same.)
So no, I'm not gonna help promote the agenda of those who think they're entitled to what we spent so much on earning. I'm here to support those of us who have earned it, and oppose the ones who feel they're entitled without earning it.
BTW, several people have posted understanding that viewpoint despite not being hunters themselves. Thank you for that.
Some of you should perhaps try grape hunting instead. No rush since there's little if anyone doing it, grapes can actually stay around longer if not found so time is less of an issue. And there are certainly a lot less critters than there are harvables. Just go around and start kicking.
Not fun? Take the race out of pear hunting and yeah, that's it, you took the fun out of it too.