darky
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Posts posted by darky
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Well looks like we never made any progress in this formula changes so Entropy had done second best thing to increase price of swords a little.
Darky
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Voted yes. Also should be networth based on fixed price of items.
Darky
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<snip>
Newcomers MUST have something usefull to do on start besides hunting rabbits/beavers. Changing from 1 to 3 sulphur will most likely discourage many ppl form learning and practicing alchemy in my opinion.
Regards
Mithnaur
p.s. If someone is stubborn even 10 sulphur in FE formula wont stop them from getting money at magic shops. this will only take longer/harder(when/if flower shops are gone - or something like that). It's always a way...
I have already admitted that I agree to most point raised by you and others. Only thing that I am trying to point out is that economy discussion is being carried out in other thread.
I picked up 4 item that are mentioned in other thread and suggested changes.
Now will these changes reflect reality as it stand now or not. I consider that they do.
In this thread the scope is pretty narrow. 4 item and possible formula changes.
I still consider that we will all benefit with the changes. If someone has some tweaking to suggest than that will will be a good idea. Let us narrow it down to best and then push to execution stage.
Darky
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One point here we are taking into account player to NPC prices.
Silver ore is 1 gc and HE is 3 gc. So definitely Market likes HE and needs HE.
This is not the case with FE as market prices are bottomed at NPC prices of 3gc because of this you can make unlimited money by making FE and selling to NPC.
Darky
u can make unlimited money harvesting flowers too, what's u'r point? and that takes even less effort. think about that for a minute.
Before I make my point, did you at all read in what context, I made above statement.
It was FE, HE comparison.
I hope you got my point.
Darky
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Well... some good points there Darky, but about margin profit in FE i won't agree.
<snip>
How about HE? - again IF you gather alll ingreds. by yourself, mass producing it with PoF's you are able to make 6-7 of them for a plain cost of 11gc(PoF), selling on market channel for a total of 36-42gc.
Its a nice profit, AND a lot more exp, leaving 25-31 gc in your pocket + maybe next alchemy lvl.
<snip>
One point here we are taking into account player to NPC prices.
Silver ore is 1 gc and HE is 3 gc. So definitely Market likes HE and needs HE.
This is not the case with FE as market prices are bottomed at NPC prices of 3gc because of this you can make unlimited money by making FE and selling to NPC.
Darky
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What you are saying is quite true but....
1. Out of 100 item in game 90 are broken as you can not make money by selling them to NPC. Again this is using player to NPC sale price for input and output. (for player made item)
2. FE seems to have much bigger margin than anything else.
Should we fix them all. Yes we should. but...
May be this is the way game is supposed to be, that you loose gc for getting exp. Not the best thing to happen but possible.
Now geting back to what we were getting at. I picked up 4 items for fixing from the other thread. 1 with too big profit margin, 2 with input that was not common for low level item, 3 & 4 for loosing too much money for making.
Now if people do not want to loose the cash cow of FE, ok, let it stay. Although for all fairness it should be tweaked in correct direction.
What about other 3 formula changes. Let us work for item where we can agree quickly and move to next stage.
If people give there feedback on other 3 item, then we can ask entropy to take a look and decide can it be done possibly.
Thx,
Darky
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Fixing the formulas is NOT something that 1 person can do within the hour. I've suggested this many times in this thread already (and sorry for repeating), but you can't blindly make up formulas. There are a lot of factors to take into consideration.
Don't get me wrong: i think changing the formulas is an essential part of fixing the economy. And it's the only tool we currently have got: <insert entropy quote here>
Fixing the formulas can be done in one way only:
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Go through EVERY ingame item
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Determine how 'valuable' each item should be
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Assign experience, production time, NPC prices and other benefits accordingly
Of course, everyone has a different opinion on how 'valuable' an item, for example a sword, should be. That is why I'm not going to make a list of all the ingame items and 'redo' them to solve different issues like massproduction and the value chain (high lvl item = more GC/exp/etc).
Entropy (or other developpers) have to make that decision for us, or some sort of 'test version of the formulas' has to be made on which people can vote. But before that is going to happen, I would really like to see a reaction from them if we are thinking in the right direction.
Yes definitely a good approach for fixing macro economic issues plaguing the economy. Also we must not ignore the micro issues while while emphasizing too much on the macro issues. One of the things that is missing in the economy is "What do do with abundance of product created by people building to get exp?"
And this issue can be fixed by creating a proper DESTINATION for the products.
Possible option
1. Make a further product by using existing product.
2. Donate to GOD for gaining advantage and/or exp.
3. Destroy the product to learn, gain exp and get some raw material back
Well let us try out one or more of these ideas and get going.
Also there are some major issues with crafting and better we start resolving those more fun the game will become.
Darky
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My 2 cents: You need to concentrate your toughts on the entire system, not just the FEs. Look at the whole production chain and then start messing with all the formulas,exp,etc.
1.Problem is focussing on entire system will never get any thing done.
2. I am talking about profit margin for making one single FE. Use Player to NPC buying price and check the margin. Plain simple and valid math.
Looking at entire economy is good. But fix one thing at a time may provide solid road map to achieve end result while validating the direction.
Let us start somewhere otherwise this whole thing is going waste.
Darky
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AFAIK, Entropy did not wanted new items, he just wanted adjustment of current items/formulae/prices...
We are talking only about price changes, formulas changes, and exp changes
EDIT: placed quote
I agree only the thread has moved focus to discuss fix to economy.
Also for formula suggestion I made a thead for just that but that is also not making any progress
I hope something will get rolling.
Thx,
Darky
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I have a suggestion for creating new class of item to remove glut of weapon
Blunt sword of <weptype>
Formula
x <weptype>
y FE
....
= 1 Blunt sword of <weptype>
The Blunt sword will have 1/4th the original damage but 2 time probablity to hit and +1 def/probabilty to defend
What this will do
1. Convert <weptype> supply to 1/x
2. Cutdown damage so monster will be alive longer
3. Increase probabilty to hit so more exp
4. More def/probabilty to defend and again increased chance to avaid being hit
Also make these weapon more prone to breakage.
Proper combination of x, y and breakage can lead to bringing some life back in manufacturing and all item will have some destination to reduce the glut.
One part that may be needed is graphics to accomodate the new blunt weapon and this may be done by using dark black stripes on existing weapon if doable.
thx,
Darky
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Time. EFFORT. Oh yes, pain when MN is just mad at you. Breaking your gloves.
3 Sulphur in FE makes it 3 times longer to make one yourself. Darky, try to think about it... you work 3 times longer and get paid same amount of money? A heaven for all the Big Bosses - 'you will work 24h/day and forget about better payment - it stays same as before!' - would you like it?
Well, you are talking about SELLING to NPC's. Try BUYING from them - 15gc per FE, 6gc per sulphur. Good Luck selling it for 3gc after you buy sulphur form Harvy(x3 = 18gc). Think of that too.
To make FE - a starting and most useful essence; you need:
- money - even if market price of sulphur goes down to 1gc, selling for less wolud be virtual suicide for all newcomers. Who is enough mentally sick to buy it from Harvy anyway?!
You're out of 3gc. (x3 sulphur)
- time - and thats 3 times longer if you put 3 sulphur instead of 1, making it this way: you will break 3 times more gloves and this is wasted gc, you will have to heal yourself 3 times more than usual - thats a cost in potions/essences if you're using magic(or time even with Fast Regeneration).
Sum it up - price of FE after adding 3 sulphur MUST go up. If market price of s. goes down to 1gc, to make a proift, when you will harvest flowers yourself it will cost 4/5 gc adding to total cost of bars, even more to things that you create from bars. Remember you are not perfect and at least from time to time you will destroy ingredients when making bar/bars when making weapon(/ring/armor etc).
And try selling it ot magic store NOW for 3gc... actually you wont earn almost anything for your time...
It is more a money sink not a solution
About WE i have little to say, usually you start your crafting skill by making those rings(oh crap, MORE bars...), but changing sapphire to quartz will let newcomers making orders for crafters. But this skill is money sink for a looong time(and you won't get millions from it even if high-leveled... or maybe i'm too lazy to see it)
Swords - with changes you could even get some small profit... but they won't be in demand on market channel.
Sorry for all my errors:)
Regards
Mithnaur
How so much that I almost fully agree to you but
1. Do you also realize that using FE/sulphur valuation loophole people have made 100k?
2. Do you realize all the other item you make none is as profitable as FE? In fact most are loss making and I am referring to that based on player to NPC sale price.
3. Do you agree that Profit margin in FE is highest?
4. Also with change in sword formula they will still be loss making albeit a little less loss.
Now let us focus on these basic things. All people needing to make money can keep picking flower but looks like flowers will be gone soon.
What is incentive to make higher level Ess when FE gives you most profit?
Idea is not to upset the economy but streamline so that more changes can be brought in.
Also to make higher level items comparable to lower level item.
Last but not the least, how about making a suggestion on formula and based on player to NPC selling prices to bring better harmony.
Thx
Darky
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Ok, now I see that you are only taking into account the price that NPC will pay for the items.
<snip>
Just making that one change to FE formula would cause alot of other changes to happen. That fact can't be ignored. Either the price of FE will more than double or it would stay roughly the same and the price of sulphur would drop drastically. If the price of sulphur dropped then ppl would stop harving it as Longshot stated. If the price of sulphur stayed the same and the price of FE jumped then the people who do buy it would stop buying and would harv their own sulphur and make their own FE.
<snip>
1. Correct the NPC prices.
2. Yes all possibility can happen and I also identified that only additional attraction of FE making will go down. It will not disappear. As such FE making can be used to make 100k in short time is enough example. People that make FE will still make it. But higher level people will be making higher level Ess instead of FE if the formula is fixed.
3. We need to mak some constructive progress on formula improvement or the whole exercise will be useless.
Darky
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Your observation may be correct, on the other hand there is a artificial bottom line price that is FE = 3gc. Now if x sulphur is used for maknig 1 FE than Sulphur becomes around (3-y)/x. (flower cost is y) with 1 sulphur used it is worth 2 gc. 2 sulphur used will bring down price to worth 1 gc and 3 sulphur to around .7 gc. My take is if there are NPC prices then formula should be in sync with those prices. Leaving aside all the other things my suggestions are simply to correct economic anamoly.
Again adopting these changes should make all item at equal footing rather than giving unfair advantage for FE making or sulphur harvesting.
Also if everyone can look for positive outcome from these changes then only we may hope for making changes that are possible to fix overall economy.
Yes these changes will not be convenient for any one using these for making 100 k gc - Just quoting from other thread.
Let us join in and support the changes so that some thing may get going.
If the formula need tweaking than give positive feedback and we can identify better formula. Just calling this formula is not good is not helping.
"FE are overvalued" - and this is not my statement.
"FE has more margins" - again not my statement but I have verified the same using prices NPC will buy stuff.
I hope we can make progress on this.
Darky
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I have been answering and justfying my statement for long enough.
Do not people read the statement above.
Sulphur is worth .6 gc as paid by NPC.
FE is overvalued.
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The cost I am taking into account is the price you get from NPC.
Hence I used sulphur value as .6 not 2. Also FE valuation to sell to NPC is 3gc. Based on these number the margin in FE is too high and needs tweaking. The final formula still needs a small margin left in FE.
Now most importantly. Do we agree the margin on FE are more than other items or not. This is based on only valuation from NPC, as this is the only fix valuation available
Another interesting factor is that increased input will subject FE to market forces and NPC value will act only as bottom line prices as the market based economy should do.
Darky
<edit>
Also in my opinion the value of sulphur is 2 as the downline item has large margin there by pushing valuation artificially high. Reducing FE margin will bring Sulphur value down in line with other input items.
-Darky
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I understand that effort is in progress in other thread to do major improvements to economy. In this one I am just identifying 4 item where a change in formula can bring about balance of input and output.
1. FE - Everyone agree that the margin in FE making is much more than other things where you loose gc. So a small change can bridge the gap.
2. WE - "Sapphire are not in same league". I picked it up going through other post and decided any thing available at same level should fix.
Also idea here is minor changes to bring item in sync with prices. This can be done other way by changing prices but I just opted for formula changes as Entropy was looking for.
Now if my formula are best. No. It is just a start. Let us stick to these 4 items and see what best formula can be done.
This will help in long term to create a strategy for fixing the other formula.
Now what to do with end products, the discussion is on going in the longer thread and we will have some solution.
Darky
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Well, i understand crafting needs fixing, but these are just 4 items picked from top and to start with these may open a roadmap for fixing further things.
Darky
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Idea is to match input output price match. For FE, fe is worth more than input and for WE input is not common.
Again these are simple change to get things going. I do not wish to make drastic changes and things can be tweaked further if changes are getting the economy going positively.
The whole idea is to match costs so people make things with equal incentive.
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How will it make the price of swords less?
You need FE's to make Bars, and your making the price of FE's go up.. That's going to ahceive alot, grats.
Well. Quite possible but observation is that margin in FE is more. More sulphur will bridge the gap and price will not rise.
Also iron bar is costly componant and using less number of bar will improve that.
And most important just 4 changes that can be used to identify the overall impact. This can be a pilot to gauge the outcome for broader changes.
Thx
Darky
First of all I don't see how changing the formula of FE's which are probably the most used item in the whole game can be considered a small change.
And why do you say there aren't enough WE's?
I really don't think the problem of crafting is the WE's. The ring formulas and lack of more different and most importantly more useful medallions for example is much more of a problem than the WE's, imo.
Maybe you could explain what exactly you hope these changes will do or can do to improve the situation because I honestly simply don't see the exact point of your suggested formula changes.
1. Idea is to make input and out put of formula more competitive.
2. FE valuation is more than input hence change in input for 2 extra sulphur. Will it make FE costlier? No. It is produced in mass quantity. The supply will still hold, only margins will shrink. Also should it be 2 sulphur or 3 sulphur. I think 3 sulphur but to begin with 2 sulhur may be used.
3. Most people find sapphire in short supply making Water Ess hard to make. Made it simpler by changing to red quartz.
Also the idea is to make small changes that can make input and output valuation more inline.
Thx.
Darky
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How will it make the price of swords less?
You need FE's to make Bars, and your making the price of FE's go up.. That's going to ahceive alot, grats.
Well. Quite possible but observation is that margin in FE is more. More sulphur will bridge the gap and price will not rise.
Also iron bar is costly componant and using less number of bar will improve that.
And most important just 4 changes that can be used to identify the overall impact. This can be a pilot to gauge the outcome for broader changes.
Thx
Darky
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Why more sulfur in in fire essences? Iron/steel bars need a lot of them, and we need fire essences for almost everything.
And pls don't make more different posts since this is said like 10 times in that big topic. I think we need someone to make a summary with links and ideas to the exact post. Not everyone making new topics with all different ideas. The idea of using less bars is a good idea, but it doesn't fit in the idea of lowering the mass production.
Thx for reply.
I am not making any change or discussion for economy fix. I am simply making a change that reflect value for end product in line with item used to make it.
1. Fire ess are worth morth than item used in this case. Needing more sulphur will compenste that.
2. Water ess are not made enough. Changing sapphire to red quartz will change that.
3. Sword will use less bar. So making them will not make people go broke.
Also just 4 changes that can be doable and put into game without changing game balance drastically.
Thx,
Darky
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I am not commenting on economy, but i have some formula change suggestion.
This changes are solely to compensate for current valuation.
1. Fire Essence
Items needed:
1 Red Snapdragons
1 Red Rose
1 Sulfur
Change to:
1 Red Snapdragons
1 Red Rose
3 Sulfur
2. Water Essence
Items needed:
1 Blue Quartz
1 Blue Star Flower
1 Blue Lupine
1 Sapphire
Change to:
1 Blue Quartz
1 Red Quartz
1 Blue Star Flower
1 Blue Lupine
(removed 1 Sapphire)
3. Iron Sword
Items needed:
10 Iron Bars
1 Steel Bar
2 Fire Essences
Changed to:
6 Iron Bars
1 Steel Bar
2 Fire Essences
4. Iron Broad Sword
Items needed:
12 Iron Bars
2 Steel Bars
3 Fire Essence
Changed to:
8 Iron Bars
2 Steel Bars
3 Fire Essences
There are some other possible changes. but these few changes can be put in to try out how it impacts the gameplay.
Thx,
Darky
Missile Protection?
in General Chat
Posted · Report reply
Seems like a good idea that a leather construct is used to make iron or steel construct.
Darky