themuntdregger

To be fair, you didn't explain it very well first time round. Its still not explained well enough to support your conclusions. That seems a shame given just how much you claim they have to offer everyone. Not everyone has the attention span of goldfish and freaks out at more than two sentences. If an idea is good, be brave enough to detail it in full. I take issue with your use of the word 'specialise'. The whole point of perks/nexus/attributes/stats system (at least imho) is to allow for the widest range of char builds ? I also take an entirely different view on perks/nexus/items etc. Seeing them merely as a way to gain "a slight advantage over those that don't" rather overlooks the fact that the game is not simply about pk, but also competition with environment, trading, guilding and socialising. If you're proposing to increase mage skills, surely you need to explain how this will balance with other equally important aspects of game-play ? Actually no. Magic nexus is required for crafting, potions and manu, not simply as a way for pk'ers to avoid repeated long walks back from the Underworld. I certainly like the idea of expanding the potential uses of any skill to increase styles of play and teamwork. After all, whats not to like ? However, I fail to see how your particular example illustrates any of this. How exactly does raising/lowering the distance at which you can cast spells on others (relative to stats/items) create any significantly different style of play ? Where do the many new teamwork elements come into this ? How does this make mage skills offer "so much more" (other than in the limited world of pk) ? When you propose such a fundamental change, it needs to take into account and balance the interests of the widest number of players. I've nothing against simply copying aspects of other games, (as your idea seems to). However, EL is not (thank teh_god) merely a clone of wow. Long may that continue.

Not quite sure how you go about integrating "proper" mages in a game which doesn't have rigid classes, unless you're intending to introduce them. Imho, the fact that EL doesn't have such fixed classes and professions is one of its best features. Why not simply use the pp system to progressively facilitate more 'mage like' features right the way up to a full 'Harry Potter' makeover ? I've never come across the term 'proper friendly buffing'. Sounds like the pk equiv of 'mutual grooming'.

Why am I not surprised

Indeed Zaer. What a great idea. Such a shame we don't have a button marked 'like' on these forums. and another marked 40,000 volts EDIT: Punchline

There's been about a million suggestions for fishing in the past. Usually about 'how', rather than 'why' it should be implemented. On the latter, the threads usually go dead, which is probably why there's still no fishing in EL. So rather than repeat what's been said in the past, lets have a stab at 'why'. Regret some of you with limited attention spans are likely to find it all rather tirunesque, so you might want to click on this handy link. Anyone who's still left, by all means continue reading at your own risk. It ain't compulsory and no ones forcing you. I'd agree that, just because other mmorpgs have fishing, isn't reason enough to implement it in EL. Other mmorpg's have lots of features that could potentially be copied into EL, but it doesn't necessarily follow that that more=better. I guess something that might single fishing out is that it could be (depending on how its implemented) relatively much quicker and easier to code as a substantive new feature to the game. Why should that be so? Well, unlike other creatures, fish don't need to have the same high level of graphic reference and movements. As per irl, they can exist largely unseen in the water, until such times as they are caught. Hence, there's potential to have a range of both size and types without the usual coding/graphics overhead that applies to more visual creatures. However, just because something is relatively more convenient or easier to implement within a game, doesn't mean that you should, ie it doesn't always follow that easier=better. Hence, its necessary to consider a better rationale for introducing fishing. I guess it could be a very useful gc sink, or provide some profitable new additions to the EL store, but its only going to be effective as such if its also fun and attractive to a large segment of players. So lets look at why that might be the case. a) As in irl, fishing isn't a contest of strength, but one of patience, knowledge and skill (and sometimes luck). For the most part you're hunting a creature which you can't see and which varies its response and location according to time of day, month, weather and a whole range of other environmental factors. Depending on whether you're fishing in the right place or wrong, you might wait a short time to catch something, a long time, or maybe not ctach anything at all. Necessarily, catching small fish is easier, but the larger the fish, the more difficulty and patience is involved. These are all factors that make fishing the one of the most popular sports/pastimes irl, hence grounds to expect they would also be an attractive features in a mmorpg activity. b ) The aspects that make fishing attractive irl are not just competition against the environment, but the opportunity to compete against other players, both as individuals and groups. Irl, competitions to catch the biggest fish, the most fish in a certain time and location are hugely popular pastimes. However, for many ppl, its just attractive as an opportunity to pit yourself against nature, catch for food, or spend time relaxing, gazing at sunsets or just for the fun of it. In short, there's something for nearly everyone. c) Most if not all aspects of irl fishing readily lend themselves to a mmorpg enviroment. You can integrate fishing as an activity for harving food, ingredients to make other items, as a means of gaining drops, as means of levelling, or as an end in itself. Hence, there's a wide potential to link it to existing aspects of game-play, as well as using it to develop new ones. d) It doesn't/shouldn't have to be yet another clickfest. Here's something where the practical requirements can be less about mouse movement than strategy, knowledge, patience and timing. So, apart from being fun, a money sink, innovative and relatively easy to implement, what part might it play within the theme of EL. Well, we already have veg, fruit, cooked meat, bread etc etc so providing yet another source of food is not really much of a rationale. And given that its not about fighting, using it as a means to gain a/d exp is hardly a great reason. Ofc, it could have its own separate levels, but what would be the point in having yet another skill where exp is its own reward. I guess there's nothing wrong in fish providing meat, bones, gc or other drops, and it would at least provide that opportunity without the usual requirement of having to fight hand to hand. However, we already have the opportunity to do that through ranging. Maybe fish could be used to develop the astrology theme within EL. The famous ancient babylonian proverb says that the gods never hold against man the hours spent fishing, hence fishing could provide a basis in EL for players to give gifts to the Gods in return for more favorable astrology. How might that work ? Well, perhaps on catching a fish, players could be given a choice of receiving drops or, sacrificing it to a particular deity (including mother nature). Atm, astrology applies only to individuals. However, I guess it could be extended to apply to groups, ie guilds or across the game as a whole, for example, so as the mood of the gods was used as a basis to select special days. Hence, it could be used to create a rationale for group based activities involving guilds, groups of guilds or everyone. One final thing in favor of fishing. One of the great aspects of EL is the design and artwork that goes into the maps. Not sure if i'm in a minority, but I often go to places just to enjoy the scenary and sunsets. Shame therefore that, aside from the asthetics, there's little practical reason for players to visit large sections of maps (typically close to the sea). Fishing could therefore provide a more practical reason to encourage more use of these areas.

This would be a monumental waste of time. People can obviously manage to do this kind of thing within a guild by themselves, they don't need any commands to do it. Ofc, there's the small matter of checking who actually manages to find 'the bee hive in teh woods', what order they arrive in, whether they arrive within the allotted time, not to mention sharing out the gc when they do. If its an exploring quest then fairly obviously you're going to need some first hand means of checking that they've completed the objective. However, if the nature of that objective is find a some small hidden item such as bee hive, birds nest, picnic blanket etc, then stationing someone over the top of it going to be just a teensy bit obvious, don't you think ??? Yup, you can do as Aislinn's guild does and get ppl to take screenies of the objective and email that back once they've found it. Its a great idea, but its still very manual and time-consuming. The point of my suggestion was to make it easy for guilds to hold explorer quests specifically as an alternative to having yet another general daily.

Fair point, well put. I'd failed to appreciate the obvious limitation in the scope of quests set by Xaq/Haidir. Your comment took me back to guild quests i've enjoyed of a similar theme. Hence, rather than have yet another general game quest, the game could enable individual guilds to run their own exploring quests. This might allow for say a rank 19 to launch a guild quest via #command using parameters such as : [location to be found] eg : Desert Pines 100 100 [search clue] eg : Find the bee hive in teh woods in the next hour. First four finders get xxx gc [reward pot (gc)] eg : 5000gc [quest duration (minutes)] eg : 60 [pot distribution] eg : could support a range of options including 'first finder takes all', 'first X finders share pot' , 'first X finders get reducing amount' [eligibility] eg : could support a range of options including 'entire guild' 'guild plus allies', 'guild members below x rank' Guilds could run the above as often as they like, be it hourly daily or, weekly. I guess you could also have concurrent, or stacked quests. As long as you limit the reward to gc, you've got the option to distribute the reward in a variety of different ways, and can make initiating a quest conditional on automatically deducting the pot from the sto of the guildie who initiates the quest. Really liked this idea. Imho, this would make a great general daily, subject always to the nature and amount of the reward. Agreed.

I can't see how this really differs that much from the haidir/xacelina theme, ie look for XX thing in XX map. The only real difference in this case seems to be that you don't even have to harv/kill or achieve anything much other than search/find. Exploring is an element in just about all quests, so there seems precious little reason to make it an end in itself, especially not on a daily basis. As such, it seems little more than another means by which players who prefer certain elements of the game can avoid grind and level quickly. Surely it would be better to fill in some of the more obvious gaps in the daily quest regime, ie potioning, crafting, summoning, ranging, tailoring, magic etc ??? Could these not be structured so as they not only require/encourage/incentivise players to find things on maps, but in far more constructive and interesting ways ??? No offence, but this one seems on the level of a wandering daily dung quest No offence, *direct insult* lol Hardly! But just so we're fully clear what a 'direct insult' actually is, its when you refer directly to someone in a demeaning, contemptuous or disrespectful way, eg by describing that person as a 'windbag' or 'asskissy'. An 'indirect insult' would be when you set out to achieve the same ends without direct reference to the person, eg by making fatuous comments on the length of a post, simplistic and poorly justified criticisms of their pov/ideas, or simply using charmingly descriptive terms like 'shit' when drawing your comparisons. All i've done is little more than disagree with your pov, and its hardly as if its unjustified. Get over it lol. Actually, what I said was "One of the great aspects of EL is the design and artwork that goes into the maps. Not sure if i'm in a minority, but I often go to places just to enjoy the scenary and sunsets. Shame therefore that, aside from the aesthetics, there's little practical reason for players to visit large sections of maps". Not sure what you see, but I count two sentences, from a single thread, which hardly seems to count as 'windbagging'. As for 'asskissy', not sure if that infers criticism of the games artwork, me personally, or a mixture of both. If you're going to make these kind of remarks, at least be clear on who's ass you think i'm trying to kiss and why you think i'm trying to kiss it. Regret I don't agree with your assertion of a contradiction in my pov regarding 'exploring'. Yes I would agree your quest suggestion would result in more of the design and artwork being seen and appreciated, but not in a way that (in my very humble opinion) would be particularly imaginative or balanced. You miss the point. The exploring element is common to both Haidir and Xaquelina, therefore why repeat it for its own sake? The only major difference between Xaquelina and your quest appears to be finding and clicking multiple items on a map, rather than one. I'm simply saying that, imho, it seems like a comparatively minor variation. I could understand if the quest activity was directly linked to a specific skill which was not already covered by a daily, ie a ranging daily that involved ranging and gave ranging exp. However, hunting worms seems to have little direct relevance to any skill exp reward. That might be fine for a one-off quest, but as a daily, it simply seems a way for players to avoid grind. EDIT: punctuation, diplomacy and length

I like this idea very much. It develops an existing theme in a way that's logical, challenging and interesting. No way you'd otherwise get me interested in having anything to do with dragons unless there was a fairly big mixing incentive at the end. Even so, i'd rather be inclined to buy the dragon scale and avoid that peril lol.

I can't see how this really differs that much from the haidir/xacelina theme, ie look for XX thing in XX map. The only real difference in this case seems to be that you don't even have to harv/kill or achieve anything much other than search/find. Exploring is an element in just about all quests, so there seems precious little reason to make it an end in itself, especially not on a daily basis. As such, it seems little more than another means by which players who prefer certain elements of the game can avoid grind and level quickly. Surely it would be better to fill in some of the more obvious gaps in the daily quest regime, ie potioning, crafting, summoning, ranging, tailoring, magic etc ??? Could these not be structured so as they not only require/encourage/incentivise players to find things on maps, but in far more constructive and interesting ways ??? No offence, but this one seems on the level of a wandering daily dung quest

Yeah, maybe. But I'd still rather put my 2 cents in as to my preference, and why, rather than let it be assumed I think the bot solution is "just as good as" or even "better" than reworking the slots. If I could do it, I would. Yes, reworking slots would seem a far better solution. I'd agree that its also prudent to avoid situations where abuse is likely. Where have you ever seen me say I like that, either? I don't. I'd rather see things that don't affect game play for sale for $, such as houses or rooms, clothes, horses, stalls, appearance changes, etc. And I'm sure you can find where I've said as much, probably many times. I support your view when it comes to the selling anything for $$$ that significantly devalues the effort, skill and patience of the majority of other players. However, I don't agree that purchasing advantage/convenience for $$$ automatically gives rise to the latter. In the case of selling additional slots, I disagree (or at least don't see the case for suggesting) that the degree of advantage/convenience is likely to skew game-play in any material way. However, I can see how the potential revenue might assist in developing the game in any number of ways, if only to provide a clear incentive for tackling the complexity involved in reworking the slots problem.

Personally, i'd rather have the option to buy storage slots than no option at all. Moreover, I can't quite see how having to pay $ for extra storage could be any more unfair than charging for rostogols, bots or any other of the myriad of items available at the el shop. Until such times as server costs are payable in gc, surely the willingness of players to pay irl $$$ for the convenience of a few extra slots, or a store bot, is something that should be applauded and encouraged ?

I guess that depends on the structure on the server database. If the number of slots are reflected as table fields, its not difficult to dynamically allocate how many are used, just less efficient than a structure where slots are reflected as table entries (as per 3nf). Other than that, you'd need to change the adjust the protocol used to pass data from the server to client to include the number of available slots, possibly by tacking on the value at the beginning of the STORAGE_LIST data structure. You're making the assumption that the EL server uses a database. It doesn't. Radu has said before that it's flat files and making the change to sto size will be difficult since he needs to modify all the files for each character's sto too. I'm assuming that since it's a flat file, that the size for the storage info is preallocated and fixed. It would be possible to use only a portion of that reserved space of course, but it does add to the complexity. Interesting to know its implemented as flat files, but kind of surprising. I wonder if that arose as a distinct design choice, or simply as a result of ad-hoc coding? However, it does suggest the scale of the difficulties involved in modifying certain aspects of the game. I guess its easy enough to pack out each individual file entry with enough space to hold the maximum permitted slots, and then (as you suggest) use only a portion of that space. However, if only a minimal number of players are likely to qualify for the full allocation, its going to result in a lot of wasted space. I guess that's not a problem if there's no issue with storage capacity, but i'd agree with your point on complexity. Top idea. Buying and selling is massive fun and very profitable.

I guess that depends on the structure on the server database. If the number of slots are reflected as table fields, its not difficult to dynamically allocate how many are used, just less efficient than a structure where slots are reflected as table entries (as per 3nf). Other than that, you'd need to change the adjust the protocol used to pass data from the server to client to include the number of available slots, possibly by tacking on the value at the beginning of the STORAGE_LIST data structure. Have to confess I like the concept of having slots dynamically allocated. Just not sure that linking it to levels is the best way to implement it. I'd suggest books might be better due to its potential as a cash sink and avoiding the 'reset issues' mentioned previously. Other than that, i'd have thought extra slots were one of those items that would be ideal for selling through the EL shop.

Take a look at the average map in EL and admire how 'insanely minutely detailed' they are. Some in particular (pv is my fave) are an absolute work of art. Not sure if its always appreciated just how much thought and imagination must go into designing aspects of the game that players tend to overlook or take for granted. No doubt the same probably applies to code as much as art. However, there are occasions when code simply seems more clever than it actually is. Relatively simple recursive algorithms can give rise to incredibly rich and complex behavior, eg mandlebrot. Hence, designing an algorithm which gives the likelihood of a fish being caught in a particular tile under a particular set of rather limited circumstances is hardly 'rocket science', especially when compared to plotting movements of individual 3d sprites.

A few ideas for fish AI.... Irl fish movement and feeding is determined by environmental factors. Not all of those are easily replicated within a mmorpg, but there's enough in EL to give finding and catching the degree of challenge necessary to make it a fun activity. So what kind of factors are we talking of .... Time of day - Fish have daily feeding patterns, being more inclined to feed within certain hours and less so outside these periods Weather- Irl, barometric pressure affects the inclination of fish to feed. We don't have the former in EL, but we do have rain and shine which could essentially reflect the same. Time of year - Some species are more inclined to feed in certain months and less so in others Depth - Atm, we don't have depth in EL. I guess it could be approximated simply by how far from land a particular water tile lies. Bigger fish typically prefer deeper water, whilst smaller ones prefer shallow (at least during daytime). At night, its not uncommon for bigger fish to move into shallower water. Sensitivity - Some species of fish are more sensitive to disturbance (particularly during the day) which means you might have to wait longer for them to appear. Bigger fish are in any case for sensitive than smaller fish, which also makes them harder to catch. As per irl, clothing can make a huge difference, so maybe penalise those who wear gaudy armor, heavy boots or bright colored items, whilst favoring the skunk hat wearing fraternity. Cover- Most fish prefer to be close to cover during the day, be it man made objects such as boats and jetties, or natural ones such as trees and rocks. Plenty of nice fishy looking places already in EL, some even in pk zones. Might give a reason for those of us who mix to come and permanently own places like kf. Bait- Any bait will catch any fish, but some baits work better for some species depending on the time of year. Existing in-game items that might work well as baits could include meat (raw and cooked) bread, fruit and vegetables. If you wanted a good money sink, you could invent a range of new ones which could only be bought from general stores, eg 'training worms', 'red dragon flies', maybe even 'pk maggots'. Luck - As per irl, mother nature is likely to take her toll on equipment getting broken, tangled or simply wearing out. Not to mention the penalties that might apply for getting caught fishing from the back of a moving boat Equipment- Opportunity for a great money sink, particularly given that bigger fish mean a greater chance of getting broken, and sooner or later mother nature is always gonna make you cast in the bushes. Either way, depending on your quarry, you'll be buying increasing amounts of hook and line lol. Irl, rods don't make a huge difference, but no reason why the reverse shouldn't apply in EL. No reason why they couldn't be made or bought in-game, but no doubt EL shop could offer a 'titanium trout slayer' plus 'cape of no more tangles'. In terms of how you implement such an ai in code, its just a series of random number algorithms which increase or decrease the chance of catching depending on where the player fishes, hence no need to model movement directly as per other creatures. No need to make the size or species storable, allocate the information at point of catch and use it merely to determine that nature of the drop. That way you can have as many variations of size and species as you like, whilst retaining a single server protocol for all fish.

Oh dear. Did I forget to include a few paragraphs on baiting, luring and trolling ? /faux-naif

Because the rabbits can kill you too easily. Still happens to me if i take the short cut through Grubani and forget the mm.

Down with ACTA and any other opportunistic scammer of life's NMT's. May they reap exactly as they sow

Problem with your idea is that bots change hands. However, if you mark the bot as 'untrustworthy' due to a previous owner, then you obviously need a means to update that if the bot then changes hands. As far as i'm aware, trustbot doesn't have that functionality. If a bot runs out of gc, no one loses anything bar a few mins travelling. I'm guessing that after one wasted trip, most players would be disinclined to repeat the error, and simply make a mental note to ignore the bot in future. Beyond that, I don't think anyone has yet made sufficient case to support that the issue affects game-play in a way that justifies legislating against it. That said, if someone were to take the time coding a bot search engine that provided a) The capacity for bot owners to upload "enhanced" information regarding trading reliability Presentation of factors that could indicate "trading reliability" c) filtering of item prices outside the normal range, eg fire essence on sale for 10kgc each d) Ability for players to receive an in-game alert if a bot started advertising a certain item at a particular price e) Facility to log feedback against individual bots so as players can post problem issues and owners can indicate if these have been resolved. f) Tools for market analysis How much would ppl be prepared to pay, either gc or irl currency, to subscribe to such a service ???

In game, this guy boasts about having made circa 1.40 million gc from scamming other players, whilst outside, he's regularly selling gc for irl cash. Based on his last advertisement, he'll probably make around $100 out of this one scam (no doubt there are others). Great for him, but I doubt any of that irl money will go back into EL. What will go back into EL are all the in-game economic problem that this kind of activity causes, plus a whole lot of player frustration and disillusionment. Yup i'm aware that scamming isn't against the rules, but it seems doubtful if that particular "notion" was ever conceived with the idea of allowing unscrupulous individuals to make irl money from misleading and exploiting other players.

Whether irl or in el, you can never be risk free, and the consequences of too much caution are arguably as bad as too little prudence. Hence, there's no safe hiding place. However, the thing that makes mmorgs so fascinating and (at least imho) attractive, is the opportunity to interact with other ppl. Whether its trading, guilds, pk or whatever, any interaction with others will carry a risk and, if you expose yourself to that risk often enough, there's a statistical probability that eventually you'll get stung. In weighing up whether that risk is worthwhile, it's necessary to consider the extent to which the benefits of trusting ppl outweigh the cost. Personally, i'm on the side of trusting others, as the value of the friendships, allegiances, assistance and other benefits far outweigh those times when i've been let down. Nonetheless, it never fails too amaze me how some ppl are willing to sacrifice their reputation, respect and the trust of other players simply for a few gc, let alone those guilds who knowingly take such ppl in. So whether its pulling sophisticated and cynical confidence tricks with instances, or simply stealing from a guild bot, I think there's a good reason to alert others to who they are and exactly what they have done.

For those things I can't imagine many (or any) other guilds being interested. When it comes to spending $$$ on EL I would presume you are not a most typical example (I for one don't tend to buy laptops for people i 'hate' on EL ^^) Fair to say that none of the things I suggested are likely to be of interest (or use) to anyone who uses the game mainly as a means to earn money from other players by selling chars and gold-farming. Problem is that the advantage you take from those activities is to the disadvantage of everyone else, including those who operate and develop the game. If you read back to the beginning of this thread (something you really ought to have done before commenting), you'll see that the idea of 'gold membership' was (in part) in response to the damage done to the el economy by those who misuse the game simply to earn irl cash. Not sure about the relevance of your laptop comment. Were you hoping that by being an ass, I'd buy you one ?

I like the idea also, and would certainly buy gold membership for no other reason than wanting to support the game. However, I think it might be better applied to guilds than individuals. Kind of things it might provide (imho) could be.... A larger customisable entry on an eternal lands 'guilds' page. guild name advertising on an el map Additional in-game guild commands Access to in-game recruiting tools In terms of cost, guilds tend to have deeper pockets than individuals (at least better organised guilds do), so you could charge around $3-400pa without difficulty. I would certainly buy for TKN

Ballad of the baddo (based on a true story) The guild sent forth a raiding party. a band of noobs all hale and hearty, from Seridia to Idoloran, to hunt the mighty badoran. On landing on c2 at night, afraid of Lenny's vicious bite, broke out the disengagement rings, and bows and bolts and swords and things. And venturing into the shadow, looking for the lurking baddo, hours passed while ego's shrunk, on finding just one lonely skunk. Then suddenly up piped one brave fighter, yelled 'i've just found the little blighter', and so coverged the excited crew, not really sure what next to do. But when they gathered around the creature, common sense did hardly feature, when one bright spark with arrow alas, shot the baddo in the ass. Then having got the brute's attention, learned the hard way his pretension, when swallowed in a single bite, without hardly giving any fight. The erstwhile comrade's bag was found, deposited upon the ground, the helm belonging to the fool all covered in the baddo's stool. Then another hero from the hoard, attacked the baddo with a sword, the error only to compound, his death bag ending on the ground. The remaining warriors bitched and whined, and tried their strategy to refine, to come up with a cunning plan, to kill that erksome badoran. So hiding behind a graveyard fence, the remaining few with common sense, full of hope and some persistance, ranged the creature from a distance But after many arrows wasted, and victory remained untasted, decided to abort the hunt, and try a more appealling stunt So given that their plan unravelled, back to Killeran Field they travelled, taking all their bows and arrows, the pk weenies to shoot and harrow. But all the young ones were in bed, and Killeran Field quite nearly dead, save one old pro half afk, farming trolls that came his way So taking matters at their leisure, they shot him simply for good measure, and lolled when at last he finally fell, his cheating ass hauled off to hell. And finally to this tales conclusion, just in case there's some illusion, that chasing baddo is worth the time or wasting arrows ain't a crime. In truth your time is better spent, in things that don't get armor bent, or expensive crossbows lost or broken just to get an instance token. Or whatever baddo's finally yield, when lying dead upon the field. So noobs beware and heed this rhyme. Just stay home and save your time.