cordelia

Firstly, Deo is a woman. We typically use the feminine pronoun for members of the female gender. By your own words, Deo did not do anything in-game to get banned. She got banned because she posted on the forums and you didn't like her post. So the rules are unimportant, what matters most is your feelings about what she posted? Deo bought stuff from the EL shop which you happily promote. You took these items away from her by your actions. You also took away the year of p2p service you agreed to. She took the only recourse that consumers have. She contacted her cc company and asked them to contest the payments. There was no theft of service. There was no fraud. It was a valid charge back by the credit card company because you refused to provide promised services since you disliked what she posted on the forums. This makes no sense. Please clarify. I am not acting as Deo's lawyer. I am acting as a member of the EL community and voicing my opinion. You would ban me for making reasoned arguments in the appropriate forum under the appropriate topic, just because you take it as an affront that I'm defending a person who's actions you subjectively deem as inappropriate? Banning me would have nothing whatsoever to do with the rules and everything to do with you "[hating] those who defend [thieves]." Again, as above, it is "your feelings" that matter, not rules set down in the game. Banning, as even your own moderators can attest to, should at the very least attempt to be based on impartial rules and regulations. Your threats and actions regarding banning have nothing impartial about them, and have everything to do with your subjective opinion. Honestly, acting in this way, is a detriment to both your creation and your business. Yours cordially, Delia

Credit card fraud? As I understand it, she paid for a p2p for one year. You banned her for saying something on forums, and nothing she did in-game. So she asked her credit-card company to cancel the payment. What is fraudulent about this? 9/10 web definitions for credit card fraud involve a stolen credit card. Not what happened. This is the most general definition I found from Explain how you were tricked. There was no trick. She paid for a p2p, and you provided the service. You later took the service away from her for nothing she did in-game, so she revoked her payment. How were you tricked into this? Both the decision to provide a p2p and the decision to ban her you provided. Her decision to revoke payment for a service she had already paid for was the typical recourse of consumers who have paid for services that merchants decline to render. Now perhaps I'm out of line here, and she actually used a stolen credit card. If that's the case, then I apologize. But the situation as I understand involves no credit card fraud. Use of that term would thus be false and considered slander. -Delia

Selling and buying for a friend. Trying to raise money for a CoM. Selling up to 6k Magic Essence. Minimum lot size 200. All reasonable offers considered. Pm me in-game or here. Buying a CoM. Cash or trade considered. Avail to trade: gems, essences, ores, rostos. again, pm me in-game or here. PS> Also buying: 40 serp stones, 15 binding stones, pm with reasonable offers.

I've been thinking about these issues, and a lot of ground has been covered ad nauseum with very little progress. So I'm going to propose a different framework with which to view these issues. I present two assumptions that I believe are true for EL economy, and then ask a third question directly relevant to the topic of fighting. The answer to that question and whether or not the answer represents a problem is what I think lies at the heart of this debate. (1) You either spend time making gc or xp. I've heard this a million times, and it's true of almost every profession in EL. There's a sliding scale between XP and GC, and you have to choose which one you wish to emphasize. For mixing professions(alc, pot, manu, craft): If you want to maximize xp/hr, you work on products that provide the most xp/time after failures. This is usually something with about 10-30% ing. loss. Losing both food and ings ends up costing you lots of gc(or time) in return. So maximizing xp minimizes gc. If you want to maximize gc/hr, you work on products with almost no fail, but this results in much less xp gained/hr. Fighting is similar: If you want to maximize xp/hr, you train on high lvl monsters that take a long time to kill. Look at stroker's screenshot for an example: 200,000 oa xp/hr. It cost him 2100gc in HE, 1500gc in SR, plus possible equipment failure for 1000gc in loot. If you want to maximize gc/hr, you hunt low lvl monsters that can be killed quickly, and provide loot. Funny enough, not many fighters do this. But some do, they hunt for meat, or gc, or drops. (2) For most professions there are "sweet-spots." I define a "sweet-spot" as some product that can be mixed/produced once the character reaches a certain lvl in his/her profession that produces both decent xp and decent gc. Some "sweet-spots" may be more gc-heavy, and some may be more xp-heavy. Regardless these "sweet-spots" provide a reprieve from the constant tradeoff between earning either gc or xp. Here is a list of "sweet-spots" I'm familiar with. Those experts in these professions can certainly find more. Please feel free to add or correct my knowledge. Alchemy: FE, HE, ME, iron/steel bars Potioning: Reasoning pots(esp. before vial update), SR's, True Sight pots Manufacturing: Leather Helms, ...(nothing in mid-levels)... modable swords(pre-update), new armors/weapons(post-update) Crafting: polishing gems(?), ...(nothing mid-levels)... c2 rings And what you see, time and again, are alchers, potioners, manu'ers, crafters focusing on these "sweet-spots," b/c that's where they can gain both gc and xp, or at the very least gain xp without going broke. (3) So the question I ask now is, do these "sweet-spots" exist for fighters? My initial hypothesis is "No, they do not." There are two main reasons I think this is true: (1) limited resources, and (2) kill-xp inverse relationship. Limited Resources: Do certain monsters exist that provide better loot and xp than other monsters? It is certainly possible. Some would argue gargoyles, others would argue trolls, others, still would argue snow leopards or bears. For extremely high lvl fighters, one could argue yetis. I'm going to limit my discussion to two of these examples: trolls and gargoyles. Trolls and gargoyles are different than all the products mentioned above by one important facet: They are limited. There are a limited number of spawns. When a resource is limited, it cannot be mass-exploited for its benefits. Unlike SR's, where 10 potioners can all buy wine, sit in front of Judith and produce 1k SR's each, 10 40/40 a/d fighters cannot tromp through the WS garg cave gaining both xp and gc because garg spawns are limited. Kill-XP inverse relationship: You can only earn loot if you kill monsters. The faster you kill monsters, the faster you earn gold. You can only earn xp if you extend your fights. The slower you kill monsters, the more xp you gain. This direct inverse relationship between gc to xp does not exist as strongly in any of the other professions mentioned above. But for fighting, it exists, and cannot be changed. Thus, for a "sweet-spot" to truly exist that provide both an increase of xp and an increase of gc violates this fundamental relationships. Conclusion: If the answer is that fighting as a profession has no "sweet-spots" like the other professions, the next question should be "Is this a problem?" If it is a problem, then constructive solutions on how to develop fighter "sweet-spots" may be a good subject. Or people may decide that it is not a problem, and that fighting is what it is, and can't be fixed (I doubt that agreement can be reached on this). But, IMO, consensus must be arrived at whether or not fighting does have "sweet-spots" at all prior to tackling whether or not it's a problem. -Just my 2c. -Delia A note on expertise: A lot of the replies I hear from people in other professions question the expertise of those in the profession. The type of a/d leveling that Stroker posted in his pic is indeed a HUGE money sink, and a lot of people are unaware of it. I was just as unaware at how much of a money-sink c1 rings and dis rings were until I talked to a high lvl crafter. Similarly, only after talking to a master-manu'er did I understand how much a money-sink steel chains and steel shields are. I am not saying to unquestionably take their opinions as truth, but to lend credibility to those who have expertise in professions.

Training in WSC ogre/troll meep, coolethan barges in on me, doesn't say a single word in local chat, and starts killing ogres right in front of me. After he kills three ogres, he actually decides to talk. First he says we should either share or just give him the spawn outright, since he's been on a 2-week break. Hmm, what does that remind me of? Oh yah, n00b's begging for free stuff @ IP. n00b entitlement. Oh, during this point, he loots the bag of a troll I killed but didn't have a chance to loot yet. Then, I say let's share, and he says ok, whoever gets to it first, then the other can join in. This is obviously pointless, since I take ~20 hits to kill an ogre, and he takes ~3. Finally, after my insisting, he settles on 1 ogre at a time. This, after he went to the mods to prove that a spawn is "anyone's," and "free for the taking." Serious n00b and spawn stealer, and these are his own words: [04:20:56] coolethan: im still kinda noob ***REST OF CHAT BELOW*** [03:55:37] coolethan: hi [03:55:38] cordelia: umm... you mind? [03:55:42] cordelia: This was my spawn [03:55:46] coolethan: sorry [03:55:47] coolethan: but [03:55:58] coolethan: u had for a while [03:56:01] coolethan: and now we can share [03:56:04] coolethan: or me for a bit plz [03:56:11] coolethan: iv been off for 2 week break [03:56:26] cordelia: there are plenty of ogre spawns. go find another one [03:56:44] coolethan: this is best spawn [03:56:51] cordelia: and you're stealing it [03:57:46] coolethan: rember [03:57:50] coolethan: dont u rember me? [03:57:57] cordelia: look. I was here first. go find another spawn. [03:58:00] cordelia: I do remember [03:58:04] cordelia: And I remember you as a nice guy [03:58:08] coolethan: i am [03:58:12] coolethan: im trying to be fair [03:58:22] coolethan: now u been here for a while why cant we share [03:58:25] cordelia: fair? is not to come in and start stealing someone else's spawns *at this point, every ogre I've engaged, he's attacked since spawn is multi* [03:58:48] coolethan: why cant we share [03:58:59] cordelia: then don't attack an ogre when I'm attacking it [03:59:04] coolethan: kk [03:59:06] cordelia: and you've had 3 [03:59:08] coolethan: whoever gets firstcome in and multi'd vs it.* *he has insanely high p/c and this obviously wouldn't work, as is apparent since he's killed the last two ogres I've attacked*

Hi Cloudstrife99, As we discussed in-game, I'd like to order the following: 4 HE packages of 1k HE ings each 4 AE packages of 1k AE ings each We discussed the price separately, so I won't post it here. Thanks a lot, -Delia

Dunno if this is in the next update or not, since I can't test the client as it's windoze only, but currently the help tab recommends that people buy vials from mira by buying mana potions. This should probably be updated, because the intention is for people to buy vials from Harvy, not from Mira. This exists under the "Skills" tab, under Potioning.

Bloodrayn apologized two days ago, and returned the 35 FP's, plus 5 more. -Delia

I assume this is not directed at me. I made no such comments. I'm referring to Entropy's post below: Hmm... I found a miscalculation in my earlier numbers. 30,000 vials requires 300,000 seconds of cooldown, which comes out to 84 hours. If you calculate in 25-30% waste, then it comes out to around 110 hours of time. That's do'able. If an average of 4-5 ppl are sitting around Mira all the time they can produce 30,000 vials in a day. Mira will simply become another congregation point like storages. These people produce an average of ~250 vials per hour. I'm not sure how accurate this is, waste may be much higher than 30% for something like this. Waste includes costs such as refillng your inventory with mana potions, time spent wasted between cooldown ending and the next cooldown. Is it do'able? seems so. Who will be these casters? primarily magic users who want to practice shield, restoration, magic immunity. Will these people charge more than 1gc per vial for their time spent sitting in front of Mira doing this? who knows? People seem to charge much more for muling FP's, so I don't really know. But this does produce magic xp, so ppl are more apt to ignore the time cost, however inefficient. Market price will inevitably be higher, though, so I would still estimate at least 9gc/ vial produced from Mira, minimum. And yes, if the potioner wishes to practice magic slowly by quaffing vials at Mira while chatting, then he can indeed roll that into his profit, an extra 1g per potion. Again there is time cost involved, yet that is mitigated by magic xp gain here. One thing I need to mention, Ghrae. The price of SR was 11gc + VIAL. That means that the vial was exchanged and thus cannot be added to unharvestable cost (it wasn't lost with potion). That is why I think that the profit for potioners did not change as long as they buy vials, becuase vials cost was put for customer to pay for. On the other hand if the potioner makes vials with Harvey, he makes greater profit, but he makes lower production (time needed to harvest quartz/make vials), so his gc/h stays more or less the same. So a potioner received now a chance of making greater profit if he finds a source of cheap vials. Thank you. That's exactly the argument of marginal profit and time cost of vial production.

And it seems we have a better set of numbers coming in that make Harvy a more viable option. Please address how Mira can produce anything close to 7500 vials a day (25% of current demand). As I showed, that would require over 100 potioners to sit in front of Mira casting spells and quaffing baby mana. So basically you're saying the profit goes from 3-6gc to 10gc because the potioner produces his/her own vials from Harvy. That's an increased profit of 4-7gc. We have numbers coming in saying it's anywhere from 400 vials for 400 emu to 700 vials for 700 emu. So what's a good emu for a potioner(I don't know?) How many vials can he produce per hour? Let's say it's 400 vials per hour. The added profit is 4-7gc*400 = 1600-2800gc per hour. A person with 400 emu can make 4000gc per hour at the blue lups. That means the potioner who runs quartz to Harvy at your stated costs would be much better off running flowers. I doubt either is very exciting, and neither produces much xp. So why bother? And as I keep saying the work is not worth the profit. Not by a long shot... Vial prices have to rise to 13gc per vial for the work to be worth it. Note: This is not to be mean Is your only argument about making profit? If that were so then EVERY skill before AND after update loses money against harvesting flowers. We've known for a long time that flower harvesting is the fastest way to make money. But I don't think the point of Ents thread (the one we're in now) is to debate profit versus harvesting flowers. Thus those arguments, while valid, really aren't the issue at hand. No, of course not. There are two reasons people don't harvest flowers all day long. (1) there's no xp in it. (2) it's tedious as all hell. Running quartz to harvy doesn't produce xp, so it's got no advantage over running flowers. Is running quart as tedious as flowers? I don't know. No one does until they start to do 3-4 hours of it. If it's less tedious, how much is that tedium worth? At your prices, it only produces half the gold of running flowers. Is that worth it? Well, we'll see, I guess. I don't think it is. I think people will demand more for vials than a measly 5gc per vial profit for muling, harvesting, and running quartz to Harvy.

Hmm... well that's good news. If you consider this about the same tedium as harving and selling blue lup, then you should make around 4k at a blue lup, and that would peg the cost of a vial around 13gc(4000/400 + 3gc to Harvy). Much better than the 27gc originally tested. Thanks for the data. You're referring to the third argument i delineate above. It's purely an argument that the marginal cost of a potion has not changed pre- and post-update. That means that potioners do not make more money, and the fact that SR prices are going up from vial cost doesn't help potioners one bit. See my addendum about suppy&demand and the high xp potions making a difference. If that rise in cost is soley due to the vial at 10gc, then you have to decide whether or not it's worth it for you as a potioner to spend that hour muling and harvesting to Harvy for those 400 vials. If Ghrae's right and the cost of a vial is 8gc, then you would only make 5gc*400 = 2000gc for that hour spent muling and producing vials. That's why I think 8gc is too low. It should be above 10gc for a vial from Harvy, if not 12-13gc. Remember, that hour spent muling harving quartz and going to and fro to Harvy doesn't generate any xp, and in fact, requires a 1200gc cash investment to Harvy.

OK, let's try this again from a fresh slate. (1) My point is this, neither Harvy nor Mira are viable solutions to the vial market. (2) After the vial supply is depleted, the inevitable rise in vial cost caused by (1), will cause a/d training of most high level fighters to be drastically reduced. (3) Potioners do not make more profit from the loss of vials, so justifying this update as a method to increase potioner profits is incorrect. In support of point (1) above, I break it down into (a) Harvy, and ( Mira. (a) This is simple. At 620 EMU, a person can create 180 vials/hr. At 8gc/vial, this is idiotic. Thus vial prices have to rise. You can change it to 250 vials/hr, or 100 vials/hr, the argument is the same. If you think the numbers are wrong, tell me why. I haven't performed this myself, as I only have 460 emu. ( Mira, there is a marginal cost associated with performing any type of mule duty reflected in market price. This cost is at least 1gc. Furthermore, there is no possible way for Mira to keep up with current vial consumption due to the 10 second cooldown required to produce each vial. As shown, if Mira only produced 7500 vials each day, rather than the 30,000 needed, over 100 people would be sitting in front of Mira on average at any point in time throughout the day. Thus, as you can see, neither is a viable option to be able to produce 30,000 vials a day. In support of point (2) above, If the average vial cost is eg. 10gc. That means that cost for fighters to use SR's increased by 10gc. Most high level fighters I know produce their own SR's or have someone else produce them for ingredients. Non vial ingredient cost, as you showed average 2-4 gc. Add a 10gc cost of a vial, and you have just increased fighter SR usage cost by 150-500%. This is why a/d training will be drastically reduced. The market may well adjust, and people will just move to greater pvp. That isn't an intended result, I'm sure, to have people train on monsters even less, and pvp even more. In support of point (3) above, I cited the fact that marginal profits for potioners has not changed. Your prior post actually presents a very good point which I have not heard before. If fewer potioners use SR's to level, that reduces supply, and increases profits via supply and demand. If the new potions are indeed viable outlets for xp, then I think it's a valid argument. In this case, I do agree, potioner profits may indeed increase. However this increase has nothing to do with the vials, but rather everything to do with the availablility of newer potions for production.

Since Ghrae seems unable to actually address the points. Let me reiterate, once again. I know some of you are bored by this, but at least one of you seems to be unable to understand. Ghrae's first statement: The update has increased potioner profits. My retort: The marginal cost of making an SR is unchanged. Ghrae's response: ... [none yet]... Ghrae's second statement: vials from Harvy cost 8gc or less. My retort: That means you make 180 vials/hr, or 1400 gc/hr. Ghrae's respnose: those numbers are meaningless ... eventhough I have no better numbers. I just know they have to be meaningless. Ghrae's third statement: vials from Mira will cost 8gc. My retort: there's at least a marginal cost of 1gc added to that due to trouble. Look at the cost of FP's on market, or the cost of anytype of muling behavior. Ghrae's response: you need to play for awhile to understand [Again, this is an appeal to authority, and a logical fallacy. Basically a worthless argument] =================== My original point: vials will cost 12-14gc on market. I made this statement assuming that Mira still sold at 10gc. If she sells at 8gc, I think the cost will be 10-12gc. If you _really push_ it, costs may go down to 9gc per vial, to account for simple muling and time spent. Honestly, I don't think this is valid. The game currently consumes 30,000 vials a day. If they all come from Mira, that's 300,000 seconds of cooldown, or 12,500 hours of cooldown. Considering there's 24 hours in a day, that means that each hour, an average of 520 people will be sitting in front of mira quaffing mana potions and practicing magic. Hell, let's say Harvy takes out half the demand. So 260 ppl are sitting in front of Mira. Hell, let's even say that people stop train less and use only 50% of the vials they used before. That means 130 people sitting in front of Mira on average at any point in time. Brilliant solution, really.

It looks like you regressed in your debate style. Rather than looking at the points layed out, you divert the entire argument into strawmen, non-sequitors, and pointless jabs. pointless jab. And none of this has anything to do with any of my arguments. Thank you for the pointless diversion. Another pointless jab. And honestly, will you please try and stick to the arguments rather than talking about a guild? Gee, I see. When numbers don't agree, that means they're meaningless. How about trying to provide your own numbers, Ghrae? If you think they're meaningless, disprove them. Yes, and I expect that's how market bases it's prices. On group projects. Oh, you referred to a number of mine. 27gc/vial. And you used it out-of-context. What a great way to prove your point. This isn't even a discussion about being a potionist. Thank you for another non-sequitor. Oh, another appeal to authority mixed in with a non-sequitor. Brilliant way to obfuscate the debate.

Wow, you actually responded to substance, rather than providing non-sequitors and logical fallacies. Good for you. Thanks for the information. I didn't know yesterday's update changed it to 8gc. Then I believe minimal cost is 9gc. How much do FP's cost on market? Why do they cost more than they cost from Mira? The same reason there will be a price increase on vials from the 8gc base cost at Mira. Honestly, I don't know if it'll be 8.5 or 9 or 11gc for vials obtained through Mira. There is a cost associated with sitting at Mira and quaffing mana potions while attempting to practice magic. Just as there's a cost associated with harvesting and muling any material in EL. That cost is reflected in the price that ppl ask for those goods and services. Such as the premium ppl are willing to pay for not having or being unable to mule FP's. And remember, the method for acquiring vials you're advocating strongly for here, is the opposite of what Ent intended with this update. Time is money. If time wasn't money, all EL players would be rich by harvesting blue lupine 24x7. There's a cost assigned to how tedious certain things are, and spending an hour in order to obtain 180 vials from Harvy by harvesting plain quartz, then muling it to Harvy is tedious. Gee, you conveniently ignore ing loss, ignore FP's, and ignore the value that you could sell that bq or flowers for on market. How about addressing these in your formulas and trying again? Also, you also conveniently ignore the whole point about the marginal cost not changing. Is it so hard to understand that prior to the update SR's sell for 10-12gc + vial on market, and after the update, SR's seel for 10-12gc + vial on market? It makes no difference whether the vial is 3gc or 7gc. One vial goes into an SR, one vial gets sold out. The profit that a potioner makes from SR's has not changed one gc from the change in vial cost due to the update. (In fact, the profit margin has decreased since FP's are now more, at least until the economy scales to handle the increase in FP cost, but that's a tangential discussion for another time) Since it seemed like one of Ghrae's original arguments have somehow been selectively snipped or lost in non-sequitor noise, I thought it might be worth coming back to it. You have yet to address how this is economical. 620 EMU ==> 180 vials/hr. Why would anyone do this if vials only cost 8gc to buy on market? That means I just spent one hour getting 1400 gc by harving and muling actively. This is not afk work, this is clicking and selling and muling constantly. Are there any fighters out there who would like to spend their time like this?