DemonCowboy

i've never contradicted myself if u'r referring to the multiplay that u accused me of maybe u should read that post again after getting u'r eyes checked. i said i was against multiplay. get u'r facts straight. u'r failing to see that it's not the ammount of money in the game but how it's gotten that's affecting the economy, the last fix was back-asswards and needs to b correcte now. u could have more money after the economy was put to rights and u could do it w/o harvesting - u could anyway if u applied u'rself. if it's not easy for u maybe u should actually look at the game and not just the PL lupine bush.

wow i didn't know some1 could be wrong 3 times in 1 scentance - gook job 1)yes it is ruining the economy, being too easy to make money and being part of the reason that lead to the current situation the economy is in (they closed off the wrong taps) even now any newbie that wanted to waste the time could make 1mil gc just by hauling flowers in VOTD. 2) even b4 i was anti-social i harvested for money 1ce and thought it was so stupid that some1 of the level i was at was harvesting b4 i #reset that the antisocial perk was nothing 3) i own 1 alt char and that was just to see how i'd look as an elf b4 i paid the $5 to change. and it hasn't been logged in since. my last 25k came from ttlanhil - they got a good discount on bars, just ask them. NPCs are a waste of my time because they're too easy to exploit. the only use i have for them is spirit essences, mercury, and PoFs and my guildmates are kind enough to get them for me because of the kickbacks they get from them. like earlier for example, i got 100 PoFs and the ingredients to make 1 of them 120BRs for a god quest and they said it was a good deal. antisocial is nothing and i can thrive in this broken economy even w/ it. my whole peeve is that i simply want it to make sense - or this game will NEVER make it out of beta.

Because, the game would be more boring than it is at times. No no no no. This is a dead topic also. Its been discussed to death ever since I've started playing. Thats why we have outlaws. There is only so much time that the mods/devs have to babysit us rompers. They don't need a longer list to add to the do's and don'ts well that's not what i've been after, i've been after a set written down that PLAYERS can choose to go by or not that would be considered by all that want to b honorable as honorable. it would give guilds that want to enforce that honor, or simply punish those that don't a reason to that won't start a problem w/ another honorable guild thinking that that wasn't honorable. wouldn't make anything boring, wouldn't change the game much at all. would only give a set of guidelines for the community to agree on to call honorable, or dishonorable. something like this would help populate the PK maps and arenas even more. because some ppl would feel safer because of the standing of honorable in the community, would give more for those who wanted to prey on the week to attack, and more would probably b around to punish those that did prey on the too weak. as well as training as training, cuels and everything else. it's not asking for devs to code it in, (there's a few of those in the suggestion forums)nor the mods to police it. if the outcry becomes large enough (and it will w/ an ever expanding community) the devs just might put stuff like lvl restrictions in. it would be better just to make it like a community set of laws type thing, that the players enforce, (and can because they agree,) not mods. because devs coding it in will restrict gameplay. EL is a community, we should treat it like 1. would u rather it b just words that could add more exitement by breaking them, or would u rather just wait for the outcry to become so great that something gets coded in restricting ppl's gameplay? think about it

so is getting bagjumped from dying from a monster but that's still considered bad, ethics made by the community wouldn't make any less risk, ppl could still do it, it would just become frowned upon like bagjumping. and would put more ppl on PK maps to boot. pking is pking ^^ if u don't wanna lose ur stuff just don't go to pk maps :> but thats also why allies exist to train with and not to attack xD. I think yuu train, you take the risk to lose ur stuff : *on pvp u get pked *on monsters u can lose ur DB but if someone kind gets it, then ur lucky edit : i was in a really big guild and i can tell you the game gets boring if you have too many allies :> thats why today or tomorrow maybe nitager wats to organise some kind of "War event" re edit () : but the thing i do is on non pk maps i give back the DB's but if i see you on pvp sometimes i give back the bags though... i'm to nice... (will be off for the day so no more msgs xD) it wouldn't bring about more allies, or even less dangerous. it would help bring about more even fights and ultimately MORE fights if there was a code of ethics - just like they have about bagjumping. wouldnt stop ppl from it if they chose. would actually cause more fights. because some1 picks on some1 weak another person could do it right and take that person out. plus, there would b set "laws" in place for guilds that wanted to do any kind of honor policing could all do it and agree. wouldn't take anything away from it, would only add to it, as well as populate the maps more. giving more opportunities for those who pick on the weak to do so. and would cause even more fighting because of it. it would add to PvP, not detract from it.

so is getting bagjumped from dying from a monster but that's still considered bad. ethics made by the community wouldn't make any less risk. ppl could still do it, it would just become frowned upon like bagjumping. and would put more ppl on PK maps to boot.

in other threads, we're talking about how to save the economy, and harvesting for money is 1 of the things contributing to the ruin of it. i don't think that teaching the new ppl the bad habits we've all picked up is the best way to help even if the economy IS so broken that harvesting is the best way to make money in the game.

well that's precicely what i'm suggesting, that like returning DBs the community MAKES laws concerning PvP(PK). if something becomes set, then it can b truely enforced by ppl, this different honorable guilds all enforcing different rules is NEVER going to work - the players need to get together and establish laws. edit: community laws are for the community to decide the devs want a wide as possible range of things to do to provide for outlaws too. laws are a community issue not a dev issue. if there couldnt b outlaws the game could get REALLY boring.

no offense or disrespect intended ent, but i really don't think external uses for them is the answer. they were put into the game for a purpose, to fight with. i believe that the best answer would be to make weapons more viable and useful in the game, not just provide places to dump them.

well there's no set thing that says that u HAVE to return a player's DB on a NON-PK map either but it's become a community law - the same thing can apply to PK maps if ppl would get together to hammer out those community laws. there will be people that disobey them, but that's ok they just become outlaws like bagjumpers.

i still say that it's going to take a good bit more than simply redoing formulas, changing exp, and price tweeks. 1.)if u change every formula in the game so that it's less costly to make it will drive down prices, if u make them more expensive to make, some ppl may quit working the skills and/or quit the game entirely. 2.)if u raise the exp for every item, ppl will still mass produce, just level faster, if you lower the exp some ppl might quit making items all together and possibly leave the game. 3.)if u completely redo the pricing system, that will have some effect, but it would either make ppl dependant on what the NPC prices are for everything, or it would only be temporary. it's going to take ALOT more than that to fix the economy. it's not going to be easy, it's not going to be perfect. and it's not going to be quick. it will have to be done in steps. which will probably hurt the economy more for a bit. but the economy is a MAJOR part of any MMORPG. so it is going to have to be dealt with., or this game will never get out of beta. i like this game and see alot of possibilities for it, but the VERY FIRST thing i noticed after playing for awhile was the state of the economy and the completely screwed up NPC pricing system. that's been the thing i've been most interesting in seeing fixed. that is because the economy is the most important part. my very first post in these forums was in the dev suggestion section about the economy. i've done alot of thinking about the EL economy and even did some research into economics because i was interested. true RL economics can't be applied here, because RL doesn't have NPCs w/ unlimited money to shell out, and that right there is where most of the problem is. a way to balance the NPCs has to be implimented or there will ALWAYS be either too many items, or too much money in the game. alot of things will have to be done, but in the end it will be worth it. i even havea suggestion ent might like to bring in cash for the game but i see no point in posting it untill the game becomes completely functional, and the economy is a BIG part of functional. --------- this has been yet another long and probably boring post , brought to u by:

i still think that if we set a code of ethics and honor about this socially could and would be a good idea and would help in guild democracy. but this is something that WE THE PLAYERS would have to do. it would cause less strife between even the honorable guilds. and give those that want peace relative peace. because w/ a community based set of rules/laws it would open up other options. like guilds that would act as police and the like. there will always be outlaws some ppl just want those types of characters. that's fine, it adds exitement to the game. u really can't call any1 an outlaw in a PK map though if there are no rules set by the community. could u imagine if there were no laws in u'r RL community? it would be chaos - just like we have here in arenas and the like. building an honorable guild that is gearing up to be 1 of those police types, i've realized talking to even a few OTHER honorable guilds that there are difference in opinions of what honor is. that's y i suggest the players discuss and come to a consensus on what should be considered honorable and shouldn't b in those types of situations. me and my guild REALLY want to police that. but there has to b a concensus of what's honorable in PK (and not in PK because there are opptys that u can still kill some1 that isn't being too careful.) otherwise we will simply go by the code of honor we have divised and listed in our Code of Honor. edit: most of those pertain to only in guild but i think most of you should b able to tell the difference which is which.

after a couple threads of ppl asking for commands being changed to different lvls, and discussions about such and a search that i didn't find this idea b4, what about making the guild commands customizable by the guild leader? is there any way to make it possible to make it so a guild leader can set guild commands to the ranks as they see fit? since different guilds having different command structures, maybe there could/should be a way that a guild leader should be able to set what ranks can do what ingame commands. it would allow for more flexibility so guilds could do things how THEY see fit, and not be constrained by the current ranking system. some guilds trust different people at different ranks to be able to do different things, so y not make it so they can each set this accordingly? it could be done as another set to setting up the guild, or as a command that a rank 20 could set them at will as the need arises. it would put an end to all these "change #guild_command to do this" threads. and i don't see how there could be a bad side to it. i think this is a better solution than attacking each command 1 at a time. input/flames below please....lol searched parameters: adjustable guild ranks, adjustable guild commands, guild commands (no threads i read pertained to this idea maybe i missed 1 though)

i see u'r point. but i wasn't suggesting guild leaders gave each allowance to each player because that would b too much work for the guild leader too. i was suggesting that they merely set the different commands to the different ranks. then there would most likely be multiple characters at those ranks, so i wasn't thinking the extra data would be THAT great. that it would be a bit though, and i have no clue what the capabilities server-side are. i do see u'r point though, w/ how many guilds there are and how many of them have <10 ppl in them. maybe we could figure out a way to make it work. like maybe take an idea i saw in 1 of the other threads and reduce the ammount of ranks possible. that way commands would be stacked up upon those fewer ranks. giving the idea less of a data hit. i'll admit that my understanding is limited, that i barely know enough to code alittle bit in basic. i do know that an option like this would be an answer that would eliminate everybody asking for different changes in commands to be done at certain ranks. so i would like to figure out a way that it could be done w/o a huge data hit like u pointed out Kedan.

the only thing that can be done roswell_r is to either join or create a guild that tries to enforce common rules. though, i do think a complete set of what's honorable and what's not should be discussed by all guilds that will either follow or abide by them should be hammered out and put in writing. That way guilds that wish to enforce the honor code have 1 that they all can agree to. then the rest will either fall in line or have the thrill of being outlaws that are targets for the rest.

i didn't find it in a search, so i figured i'd bring it out in the open. at least if they can't or don't want to impliment this it can be recorded for future searches. though if it could b implimented, it would be the best solution to the other threads about guild commands.

both actually, but i just searched and posted an idea that could solve all of this, if it can be implimented, that could make every1 happy.

some guilds won't want that feature, some will want others implimented to to coincide w/ it, and some will want them to be able to promote to different lvls. this idea is way too narrow to be of any real help exept to certain guilds/people

But in order for players to even start buying things from the market, we need to have some sort of Cash-inflow. Imagine what would happen if you removed the flower shops and NPCs that buys harvestable resources: the economy will suffer even more, because there is not enough inflow of GC. I think you NEED to have some NPC who buys the lowest level stuff, because if the total amount of GC in the game keeps decreasing, prices will decrease also. If there is sufficient GC in the game, all people will do is buy from others, because the NPC prices are too low = a step in fixing the economy. like the others have said, there would be other ways to introduce money into the game fighting is only 1. the loss of the ability to sell harvestables still leaves even ways to get money from NPCs. for example: fire essences u can make right away 1ce u start exploring the maps, and can sell them to NPCs. u can also kill rabbits and sell their furs on IP b4 that (that even suggests it right when u start playing the game.) plus when u do start exploring u can also sell plenty of other furs in tirnwood vale in WS. there's also the market channel selling to OTHER PLAYERS!!!! that would start buying them from other players because their time would become better spent making items than harvesting. so u see? even new players will still have PLENTY of ways to make money, just not as much. which is as it should be. also helps bring more player interaction into the game. so while it will inconvenience ppl who don't want to put effort into making money, they can still get it, and it's win-win for everybody else. edit: and also that would mean that the prices of stuff actually made could be re-adjusted so that they could turn a small profit as they should.

that's where u'r wrong obviously missing the point i've been trying to make this whole time. different guilds have different command structures. therefore need to be more flexible. i can't make it any plainer than that.

well Savyl i forgot to mention in my post that i do it WITHOUT multi-playing, i am WHOLEHEARTEDLY against it. in my guild, any player caught doing such is kicked from the guild, reported to the mods, and any ally or neutral guild will be warned that they are a cheater. we do allow multi-play for only RP reasons or shared connections listed in the guild's rules HERE, it is #8. also, my guild allows PvP but not PK (given from the OLD view of it at UO that PvP is honorable and can b to the death, and PK is picking on those weaker for easy profit or cheap thrills.) so no income there either. i think this idea could cause problems giving more reason for multi-logging. i think that reducing incentive to harvest (especially for money) would be a much better option. that way people can still harvest to make items that have no problem being mass produced because they're quick use/ high demand like essences and potions, while reducing the incentive to harvest for money, and for stuff to make items less in demand. plus, i think for lvling purposes in manu, (though i dont do manu nor crafting,) little things that are 1 use like other skills have that should sell in bulk to help reduce the overproduction of items that inherently don't have a high demand like swords or armor. maybe 1 such 1-use manu item could be something like a poison needle which breaks on contact releasing poison poisoning the target. (btw this would also probably give another use for needles making them something else to spend more money on.) i could probably think of more given time. these 2 quotes i put together to b more speciffic on my views of this: i think while fleeing would do that in a small way, it would also make ppl less apt to fight at all instead of wasting diss rings. i think a better option would to be to change the combat system all together. instead of exp per successful hit/evade, att and def, each monster should have a set number of a/d experience delivered upon successful KILL. i realize that this could be difficult to impossible to impliment given the current engine because there would also need to be a way that it splits it between multiple attackers in those cases. but if this was done, people would be ALOT more inclined to use weapons because then they would be going for the fastest kills for the best experience. they would still risk their lives on higher monsters for the better experience, using weapons for the quickest kill, so they can move on to the next monster/player. semi-related to this i believe entropy had an idea at 1 time to unlock players fighting so ppl could move around and fight. i think this would help the above idea so ppl could try to land blows w/o taking a hit as well as help provide the engine for other developments that are possibly in the works that i won't name here. but this will hurt on even simple items that should b left able to be done, like bones powder. i believe splitting the process up into stages would be a much more feasable option that would produce less headacheand subsequentially, bellyache. instead of making a player wait to do something again, give them more to do to make it so that it takes longer. i just advise that a new balance of experience should be found so ppl don't get too bored so that they can't lvl and quit, which i'm sure is something the devs DEFINATELY don't want.

EL ranks shouldn't be used for this. You are much better off organising your own system and giving people titles etc which you post on your guild website and everybody gets used to. but the way i have things set up, w/ the different ranks some different responsibilities, and perks IN-GAME as well as on the website/forums my the ranking system is public knowledge on our forums if u'd like to see what i'm talking about

actually if u NEED those flower bushes maybe u should look at u'r playing style to b honest. i went ahead and became antisocial, i don't harvest flowers for money, and i get along fine. believe it or not even b4 i went antisocial i never harvested for money and still did great. next time u see me ingame PM me if u'd like and i can help u (even showing u a few things to help u exploit parts of the system i've listed that i'm trying to get fixed like free to next to free PoFs) <joke> lupines are bad, u shouldn't do lupines, okay? if u do them, u'r bad, because lupines are bad, okay? it's a bad thing to do lupines. so don't b bad, by doing lupines okay? that'd b bad, lupines are bad, okay?</joke> actually that's what i said according to ents specifications, if u looked later my FULL opinion is that harvestables shouldn't b sold to NPCs at all. that it would be better to let the other player's more limited cash set the limits on what a player can sell since apparently the devs don't think it would b worth it to code the NPCs to limit what 1 can sell to them. players don't have unlimited cash like the NPCs do. so if u take the NPCs out of the equation completely it will force them to work on complete supply/demand plus taking the unlimited GC from the NPCs out of the game, which would in turn allow the devs to balance the other NPC prices at just above cost, because on manufacured items and monsters would be the ONLY introductions of money into the game. w/o that relatively quick availability of money, ppl will actually have to work for their money, valuing their time more, raising prices again 1ce the harvestables settle down on the general market. edit: actually Dent, i think most of us are just arguing our points now. that isn't a bad thing though, it helps provide more detail to the suggestions to help entropy see the pro's and con's of each idea i hope that's how ent sees it too neway, i do.

rank though helps show that social status and particulary in my guild, promotions are based on what ppl do and how they act and they have to work their way up. promotions aren't given willy-nilly to whoever i like because of their ideas - and my doing it this way helps to keep my guildies active, because if they aren't they don't advance. so my guild and other guilds i know of add things to ranksthat the game CAN'T incorporate, and each guild has it's own ideas of where those can be set.

Yes, I think a percentage would be much better than actual levels. Once you become really high in any skill, it would probably be faster to do these quests for level bonus than to actually earn the levels. i think ent meant those as temporary bonuses - like blessings from gods.

i think it has merrit, but wouldn't it be alot of work for each item to b donated to have each advantage? there are lots of items in the game and i think it should make sense, like armors should provide various def related advantages (maybe def/phys?) and weapons att type advantages (att/coord?) and would u balance out the advantages based on different advantages for item? or different ammounts needing to b donated for the same advantage? well those are my initial thoughts edit: also i think any help this would be to the economy would be minimal