honeybee Report post Posted November 24, 2004 I know i'm dumb when it comes to computers and programming so generally i try not to complain about things i know nothing about. I didnt complain when we had the big server crash or when we had roll backs and i didnt complain when harvesting became dangerous, in fact i was supportive to the changes as i understood the reasons behind it. But with all the posts and flames about the recent update i still dont seem to understand what the purpose of slowing down harvest and alchemy/maunfacute is supposed to achive, and i presume that you the developers did actually have a purpose and idea to what it would achieve. Some say its because of mass produce and market prices, but i ask what is wrong with that. As with all enconomies when something first comes to market it is at a high price, then over time the value drops. We have all bought something in rl to find six months later it is now half the price. If it is the prices then surely it would be better to change the npc prices every now again to keep control of the market. Is it because it is too easy to get hold of a tit serp and go fight goblins with an oa of 20? Then surely it would be better to change how much nexus you need to use high level weapons and link it to your oa. Is it because it is too easy to level up skills by doing things before you have reached the recommended level? Then surely it would be better to again change how much nexus you need and you can only actually make or do something when you have actually reached the recommended level as the same as magic. You can't use a spell untill you have reached the level, it should be the same with all the other skills. Some ppl say we are only beta testers and what right have we to complain about a game that we have for free. Well i have personally paid what could be considered large amounts of real money to this game for various reasons. 1. Becuase i believe in this game and wanted it to continue and develop. 2. Because i believe in the developers and wanted them to recieve some sort of thanks. 3. Becuase I cant offer anyway of helping to develop the game in programming terms, so playing regually and paying real money is my contribution to the game. 4. Becuase i dont believe you should recieve something for nothing. I had planned on contributing more money and i still wish to do so, but i dont think it is too much to ask to actually know what purpose and benefits updates will bring to the game. As a suggestion maybe it would be a good idea to post a week before any new updates, what the update would be, how it is going to work and what benefits it will bring to the game. Now I know, that i'm not entitled to an explanation to anything that the developers decide, it is not my game, i only have the privalige of playing the game and being able to see it develop. But please would someone help me not feel as stupid as i do and explain in plain lanuage what the purpose of the update was meant to achieve. Your ever gratefull beta tester Honeybee Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buuhan1 Report post Posted November 24, 2004 nice long post honeybee you always speak everything thats on your mind,and truely i just don't know what to think about the new update,i hate it,and i love it i just..don't know.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kira Report post Posted November 24, 2004 Well spoken... I wish others took the time and tone you did to make posts. So many seem like nothing more than "It sux0rs - I no play more!!!" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Platyna Report post Posted November 24, 2004 (edited) It is kinda desperate attempt to fix economy damn fast using ONE miracle magic change. It is wrong, developers got slapped in their wrists not once for it but seems not enough. :-P Sorry guys, I know you hate me for that, but this is truth, you are all nasty. Bad, bad guys. *winks* Current EL development looks like Polish politics - Polish people every election expect a messiah who will come and heal everything in 3 mins using his magic touch. Hrhr. Regards. Edited November 24, 2004 by Platyna Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Quinticus Report post Posted November 24, 2004 Could be worse teh banned 0n3na! Could be like American Politics... Economy sucks...shit...lets go start a war so no one notices! DEATH TO RUNESCAPE! *i'd be the one carrying the EL banner, and first to die in battle...that's my luck! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Looney Report post Posted November 24, 2004 I have got to agree with the comments from, honeybee. Whilst only a new starter to the game I quickly learned that Alchemy seemed to be the only way to afford to work towards manufacture. The changes made in the last update were “drastic†and have made what was at times a slow game, really a game you play between coffees and meals if you are looking to harvest or manufacture. I cannot see how this can positively balance the economy in one strike, if anything it has the potential to destroy the economy with production of basic materials grinding to a halt. Even if the price was to go up significantly for some items I could not bare to spend the time it takes to harvest the materials to get the money, it put bluntly is too boring. Please before you kill off the enthusiasm for the game amongst the harvesters/alchemists and manufacturers take this one on the chin as a lesson learned and roll the changes back until you can come up with a more strategic fix. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lyanna Report post Posted November 25, 2004 It's not supposed to balance the economy at one strike. It's only the beginning of the changes. Since harvesting DOES have a big impact on the economy currently, it seems like just changing harvesting is supposed to solve everything, but that's not entirely true. Other systems are being worked on as well, and your Nexus suggestion has already been thought of and taken into account, honeybee. I think one of the problems the dev's have currently is that there are so many suggestions flying in so many different ways that it'll take time to merge them into a unified system. In the meantime, the slowdown is used, hopefully to get players used to a slower rate of production. After all, mass-alching or mass-manufacturing 20-30k items and selling to NPCs is something we really don't want. Perhaps that is why some of Trik's wanted items were removed. Ideally, the makers should just make enough and slightly more to sell to the other players. It's a slow process of trying to reeducate the player population, I guess, not to get so used to making tons of stuff. But evidently, a large majority of the players like the old system, no matter how bad it was. It just shows how resistant people are to change, especially that which disadvantages them in the short run, no matter how good it may be for the game - or even for themselves - in the long run. Yes, perhaps these changes were a bit too drastic and not well-balanced enough. But perhaps also most of the vocal crowd are those players that only think of themselves in the short term. It can be hard, sometimes, to distinguish between the feedback that is really useful, and the feedback that is self-centered. Wish we had more players like you, honeybee. But anyway, one of the major "dangers" I can see about posting the details of the changes one week beforehand is that it would give those selfish players advance notice to start stockpiling or doing whatever that would give them an advantage in the new system, and hence probably undoing whatever good the change was meant to bring. (Can you imagine what would have happened if the dev's had announced the new formulas for the titanium items one week in advance?) It is not an easy decision to make - keep player popularity, but suffer from reduced effects of any change you implement, or implement changes by surprise for full effect, at the cost of massive player flaming. -Lyn- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fizban Report post Posted November 25, 2004 Honeybee are you married? I hope not. I get the impression that alot of people seem to think that the developers threw this update in as a quick fix for the game. But maybe this is the way they wanted it from the start. You know get the game going frist and test the driffent basic aspects ot the game frist befor you move on the refining it and fine tuning the details. Personaly when I first palyed this game I thought wow I can mine unlimited resource here and very easily that is very unusual for a game. Than I decied what type of char. I wanted and I thought to myself hay a crafter blacksmith would be cool. But than I noticed that everyone was a crafter to some degree. I always like to build unique chars. ones that are driffent from everyone else. I offen pick the hardest path just to be driffent. So my goal is to be a mage now with my dreams of being the crafter of rare items crushed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
honeybee Report post Posted November 25, 2004 Fizban what has being married got to do with anything are you propsing to me or something Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
I_am_Spock Report post Posted November 25, 2004 yes, yes he is Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buuhan1 Report post Posted November 25, 2004 LMAO,i believe honeybee already has a family Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
I_am_Spock Report post Posted November 25, 2004 yes, i have a confessinos to make... i am honeybees eldest son. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buuhan1 Report post Posted November 25, 2004 really?,thats cool Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Azazel Report post Posted November 25, 2004 (edited) Nice post Honeybee, i agree in 100% Lyanna: I can't understand why mass-production is so bad. In real life it's a common way to get rich. We don't have enough players to simulate RL demand, so NPCs should buy some low lvl items (like iron shields). After all players MUST have some way to earn money. If we can't sell manufactured goods to NPCs with profit then the only source of gc for players are : -monster drops (for fighters mostly) -selling raw materials to NPC (which is already poor way to earn money and with new system it will be even HARDER) Now, how could you expect someone will level up in manu/craft without money? It really take LOADS of cash to lvl up even to lvl 30 (which isn't high) - look at top 20 lists - manuers, crafters and summoners have lowest lvls. It was never easy to lvl up in those skills and it was one of the best way to drain money from the market. As for making 20-30k items of one type. Maybe it's possible with fire ess (i took part in fe project in which 5 ppl made 12k fes and that's most i know of), but with iron shields?? 40-60k steel bars, 160-240k of iron bars and 80-120k fire ess (only if you DON'T FAIL) ??? These are just insane amounts, someone would have to spend his life on it. 100 shields in one week would be pretty fast. And the impression that you earn 400gc on one shield is false. One could sell bars to Karn for 310gc + few gc from selling fire ess without RISKING failures. So one earns ~80gc on processing metals into shield, but he looses 320 when he fails. Simple calculation shows that he must fail less than 20% to make ANY profit. I didn't notice there was too much money in game. From what we experienced on the old server one of the sympthomes would be dramatic increase of prices especially for low/medium lvl items. I didn't notice anything like that Edited November 25, 2004 by Azazel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
honeybee Report post Posted November 25, 2004 thanks Lyanna for explaining things and Wytter too. There is a saying that sometimes 'you cant see the wood for the trees' and hopefull now i do have a clearer picture as to what direction EL is heading. I dont think most of the EL community is so much as resistant to change, its more like, we enjoy what we have so why change it. I for one have great admiration and respect for all of you who are developing the game, and i appreciate the fact that us lesser mortals will not always agree with what you are all doing, but we must trust and believe in where the developers are taking the game and hopefully we can all jump on and enjoy the ride again Your grateful Beta tester Honeybee P.S. I_am_spock is not my son i gave him up for adoption at birth hehe Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Platyna Report post Posted November 25, 2004 (edited) Lyanna: We want to work like medieval society - concrete economy, mass production, profit, this is a style of this game go over it. You think all these castles, beautiful churches, universities were build because people were 24/7 telling each other stories about medieval knights? No, this is blood and sweat. Might of medieval England, France and Spain - this is all because finest merchants and conquerors. In medieval society stories were completly not important, people were sitting near the fire at parties or with their families when they had a free time and then telling stories, most of their life was a hard work. Telling stories and role playing bards is also cool, but we have chosen role play knights, mercenaries, merchants this is the way this game go. Regards. Edited November 25, 2004 by Platyna Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lyanna Report post Posted November 25, 2004 (edited) Azazel, if the process really started to slow down, then of course the prices offered by players would rise (due to a lower supply). Most likely, the new manu/alch/pot/whatever systems would be matched with increased NPC prices to allow people to still make a profit. But again, in the interests of developing a player-run economy, some items may have ...um... not-very-good... prices at NPCs, so that fighters and manufacturers would turn towards each other for trade. I think it's pretty much guaranteed that monsters will be starting to drop items other than full equipment - again, to push fighters and manu'ers closer together. Equivalently, it is likely (but don't quote me on this) that the experience gained per item made would increase - or some new system of gaining exp would come in. So, one item in the new system may take 10 times as long to make, but if you get 10 times the money and exp for it, would that be fine? You have to see all of the changes together, working as a whole system - not just the incremental steps - to start understanding the "final product" of development, so to speak. But since the system can't be changed overnight, it would have to be done in stages - and that's why it seems a little unbalanced now. Stage 2 hasn't come in to balance Stage 1 yet, and Stage 3 would again tweak Stage 2's effects, etc... (And of course, most likely all the players will flame the dev's after Stage 2, too, saying it's unbalanced, too hard, etc... <_< ) -Lyn- Edited November 25, 2004 by Lyanna Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Placid Report post Posted November 25, 2004 So, one item in the new system may take 10 times as long to make, but if you get 10 times the money and exp for it, would that be fine? No that im quoting you on this but, wouldnt that defeat the whole point of changing it in the first place? 10 * Cash and 10 * EXP, gives the same amount of problems, except without mass production. Quote me if im wrong Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Platyna Report post Posted November 25, 2004 (edited) People flame because they love this game. Personally after I heard about new update I got mad on Learner that much I though I will kill him barehanded. RaWr. Ah BTW: Serp stones market is screwed up because not many people going to waste EFE for serps and monsters drop enought. Well this was part of my plan - to make serps rare. Anyway other part of my plan - to consume excess of serp stones in other titanium items and increase their prices of course got ignored, so economy will be more screwed than it was before. Therefore new class of useless zombie items has been created. Have fun Learnie. EFE prices are dropping and FE prices go up...WTF? Regards. Edited November 25, 2004 by Platyna Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lyanna Report post Posted November 25, 2004 So, one item in the new system may take 10 times as long to make, but if you get 10 times the money and exp for it, would that be fine? No that im quoting you on this but, wouldnt that defeat the whole point of changing it in the first place? 10 * Cash and 10 * EXP, gives the same amount of problems, except without mass production. Quote me if im wrong Well, it depends, really. The trouble with trying to implement changes on a dynamic market is the fact that it is dynamic - meaning that it constantly changes. Let's assume that fighters remain at their constant rate of consumption of items (meaning that they still use up the same amounts of pots, essences and breakable items). That would mean a constant high demand. Matching it with a slower rate of production means lowering the supply, so although each item may give more exp and more money (when sold to NPCs), the majority of the items should be going towards the fighters, which then consume it and remove them from the game. The fighters would likely be willing to offer higher prices than the NPCs, provided we give them a good source of income that they can't use themselves (like maybe making monsters only drop serp stones and gems, for instance - so those would be sold to manuer's). The item turnover rate becomes faster. Things get produced, things get bought, things get used, things get removed from the game quicker. Currently, one of the problems is stockpiling (and you hear about people complaining that they don't have any more storage space, and you see people dumping good equipment on newbs simply because they have too many and can afford to do so). So, strangely enough, slowing the rate of production may increase the rate of turnover. And, it also has the side effect of realism. Mass-production was a sign of the Industrial Age, not really of medieval times. Craftsmen took their time back then, to create a really good item. As for the exp - well, manu IS a difficult skill to level, so I don't see why an increased exp gain might not be a good idea. The difficulty rating is currently set by levels (the higher your level, the easier it gets). A new manufacturing system might change it to be less level-dependent, so levels and exp by themselves won't be the only things that manu'ers should be aiming for. Actual skill in their work may come into play. But these are just my observations. -Lyn- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pavel Report post Posted November 25, 2004 But evidently, a large majority of the players like the old system, no matter how bad it was. It just shows how resistant people are to change, especially that which disadvantages them in the short run, no matter how good it may be for the game - or even for themselves - in the long run. If large majority likes the old system, then may be it was not so bad Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lyanna Report post Posted November 25, 2004 Or maybe they couldn't see the problems with it, or didn't have a vision of something better. Or maybe it was the influence of peer pressure. Mass psychology is a very interesting subject sometimes... -Lyn- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Azazel Report post Posted November 25, 2004 Thx Lyanna, i hope the things you have mentioned will get implemented, especially making fighters more dependant on makers (cutting drops of final items) and increasing xp gained from things that now take longer to make. I also understand that we can't see all the changes together. However step 1 would be much easier to bear with, if we knew that steps 2 and 3 are being planned and we had at least general ideas about what would they concern. (btw: i think it was one of Honeybee's points too) I think it would be cool if developers could play open cards with us, present their general ideas and allow discussion and suggestions from players: what do they want to achieve, how money and skills should depend on each other, etc... That would hopefuly reduce future complains significantly and help discussion about tweaking and tuning changes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lyanna Report post Posted November 25, 2004 I think it would be cool if developers could play open cards with us, present their general ideas and allow discussion and suggestions from players: what do they want to achieve, how money and skills should depend on each other, etc...That would hopefuly reduce future complains significantly and help discussion about tweaking and tuning changes. And therefore, Roja posted these two threads in the Announcements Forums: About Changes We Make to the Game Game Development Structure -Lyn- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Azazel Report post Posted November 25, 2004 Heh, that's great !!! I must have missed those because they're in new section Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
