Updating the Invance Map

[Burn]

Invance currently uses a copy of the standard Iscalrith map. This does have some issues... misclicking on a house and you're suddenly out of the invance or such being a common one.

 

A plan to make a more invance-specific map is in place for a future client update.

 

The invance version of the map would include these changes:

 

 1) Everything that's clickable (houses, flags, ships, etc.) will be made unclickable. This will stop any misclicking causing players to accidentally leave the invance.

 

 1a) New Exception, one path back to the Battle Hall: A new statue inside the fort when used will take players back to the battle hall when clicked.

 

 2) All walkable tiling in the sw city area will be removed so it cannot be entered at all. (Not used in invance, and players aren't supposed to go there anyway.)

 

 3) Invance map will be made unharvestable. With the exception of inside the fort... so you can still sit and collect harv exp on ogre toes while waiting for the invance to start.

 

 4) Remove the PK area in the fort since no one is supposed to be hanging in the fort anyway, much less attacking other players.

 

 5) Make the invance map C1 - Teleporting out sends you to the C1 portal instead of C2, for easier access to the battle hall to get back in, reducing the amount of time players might spend outside the invance.

 

6) No Snow (rain) - In the event of Acid Rain day, it won't affect invance.

 

To be clear, the actual design of the map will remain the same. It'll still look exactly like Iscalrith, just limited and changed to better suit an invance.

 

 

Questions or comments... with reasoning if there's opposition.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Burn

[the_grud]

sounds good to me

[Aislinn]

I have a couple of comments for you when you are back online ingame.  Thanks!

[Burn]

On mod talk, tweaked 1a) above, the invance map will have its own unique statue in the fort, right about where you first teleport into the map... visible by the gate watcher. That statue will be use-able to go back to the battle hall.

[Burn]

Added the possibility of 6) No snow (rain) so Acid Rain Day won't be an issue.

[revi]

1 hour ago, Burn said:

On mod talk, tweaked 1a) above, the invance map will have its own unique statue in the fort,

Wouldn't that require an update of the client-side map, not just a server restart?

I know you proposed this for a future client update, but so far, from all the proposed changes, only 1a) and 2) require a client update,

afaik the others can be done with only a server update.

And perhaps access to the city area could be made harder/impossible?

[Burn]

This is planned for 1.9.7.

 

The server as it stands requires a map's def and elm files to be the exact same name. It currently "reads in" the Iscalrith map elm/def combo under two different map IDs, the second being for the invance.

 

Changing the server side (def) settings would change them for regular Iscalrith as well for that reason.

 

So a separate new elm/def combo of files will be made for the invance. Even if no changes were made to the elm file (needed in the client), it would still be necessary that it exists under a new name in the client.

 

End result, none of this can be done until a new client release.

[Diealot]

Comments:

1) I always thought of entering buildings as a feature not a bug, particularly the storage entrances. Also, what happens to the other map exits (glac, hulda, Irin, II, and whatever the new boat is that I forget is)?

1a) Statue to battle hall is fine, I guess. Statue back to Iscal sto as is current seems more helpful to me, but I guess it doesn't need to be helpful.

2-4) Yeah, seems fine.

5) Would rather see the low level invances be run on an altered version of the MM map (which can be c1) and keep the higher levels on Iscal/c2. Alternatively, allow both maps for all ranges and have the server pick one of the two at random. Additionally, if all the current exits are getting removed, are the only ways to exit the map going to be death, winning/losing, or ring/tele/beam?

6) Why? Running an invance close to a day change should have risks.

[Burn]

2 hours ago, Diealot said:

Comments:

1) I always thought of entering buildings as a feature not a bug, particularly the storage entrances. Also, what happens to the other map exits (glac, hulda, Irin, II, and whatever the new boat is that I forget is)?

1a) Statue to battle hall is fine, I guess. Statue back to Iscal sto as is current seems more helpful to me, but I guess it doesn't need to be helpful.

2-4) Yeah, seems fine.

5) Would rather see the low level invances be run on an altered version of the MM map (which can be c1) and keep the higher levels on Iscal/c2. Alternatively, allow both maps for all ranges and have the server pick one of the two at random. Additionally, if all the current exits are getting removed, are the only ways to exit the map going to be death, winning/losing, or ring/tele/beam?

6) Why? Running an invance close to a day change should have risks.

 

1) Entering some random building on C2 because you misclicked trying to click a creature that went around said building, with the only return in the C1 battle hall is the opposite of a feature.  Your "also" is directly answered in the post. "Everything that's clickable (houses, flags, ships, etc.) will be made unclickable." The point is to keep people in unless they intentionally try to leave (tele/ring/go into the fort and use the statue).

 

1a) Iscalrith storage is not more helpful when the only way back in is in MM. The purpose is to keep people where they belong. And get them back in as quickly as possible if they do go out.

 

Arguments that going to C2 on leaving the map is better than going to C1 when you have to be in MM to return to it are going to be pretty difficult to make.

 

 

5) We're discussing only map changes here that do not require radu to recode anything.  Suggestions that require radu to code something need their own post in suggestions forum.

 

As for the only way to exit the map... again, that's answered in the post, as 1a, the statue back to the battle hall along with all that were mentioned. Just like instances only have the one exit, and that one's even more difficult to get to. Perhaps you didn't grasp what (5) meant, it's still going to be Iscalrith, just when you tele you'll go to the C1 portal to more quickly get back to the battle hall in MM to get back in, instead of C2.

 

6) Keeping things difficult or annoying just for the sake of keeping things difficult or annoying may have been how things were done in the past, but I do QoL where it's possible. The "keep things annoying" route hasn't exactly helped with player count, and I refuse to go back to those days. If this tiny barely-relevant change makes things a little better, then I see no reason not to do it. If it were a "game-changer", it would be a different story, but it's not, it's just a tiny QoL improvement.

 

And it's not a matter of the day changing to Acid while an invance is ongoing anyway, since those are normally started when there's no day change chance happening. It just allows them to be run should that day already be happening. There's still plenty of annoying days that'll stop invances, like Peace...

 

 

 

The end result: This is making the map the way it should have been done back when invances were started, there just weren't active map editors to do it and it got forgotten about. Invance map should never have been clickable to the real Iscalrith, it's an otherworldly MM Battle Hall place. Leaving the map should be discouraged as much as possible, though it's still very simple to leave for anyone at a level high enough to go to one anyway. This is a map mistake due to lack of active editors at the time, that's just being corrected.

[Aislinn]

I'm very happy with this, thank you so much!

[Burn]

On 7/30/2022 at 8:21 AM, Burn said:

We're discussing only map changes here that do not require radu to recode anything.  Suggestions that require radu to code something need their own post in suggestions forum.

 

[Diealot]

I use one of the exits you are proposing to remove in basically every invance I enter.

 

Not all players 4060 or 6080 are fully prepared and/or are just new and do not know to bring a teleport ring. Also, not all are capable (or remember, or even know) of ttr into the fort to exit to restock, and asking the gatekeeper to move so that you can exit is contrary to the point of Invance. Many low level players have low max emu as well (Who would have guessed???) and may need multiple restocks per run.

 

This change might not affect high level players, but at best this is exchanging one set of 'problems' for another for low level players. But I guess we don't care about low level players. So go ahead master map maker, make your changes and disregard any input from other people.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Diealot

[revi]

7 minutes ago, Diealot said:

This change might not affect high level players, but at best this is exchanging one set of 'problems' for another for low level players. But I guess we don't care about low level players. So go ahead master map maker, make your changes and disregard any input from other people.

Just as an aside, that's the kind of remark that makes it a lot more likely your comment will be ignored... Pity, as with the start, you had a good point.

Edited August 6, 2022 by revi

[Burn]

11 hours ago, Diealot said:

So go ahead master map maker, make your changes and disregard any input from other people.

 

Pretty sure that input was the point of putting it on the forum before it's actually done.

 

But if you prefer changes without it, and that's how most map work is done, actually, we can go that way instead.

 

 

Now, force every single participant to have to be careful clicking creatures so they don't accidentally end up off the map because carrying a single ring for you is hard?

 

You went and made it impossible to listen to you, screaming nobody gets input on a forum thread specifically for input. Your input does need to have a viable reason to change what's listed that is for the good of the many, though. I'm unaware of people having issues carrying 1 emu rings. I am aware of people ending up out of the invance because the invance shouldn't include links to c2 places that aren't part of the invance. One of those things outranks the other when the goal is to ensure people stay in the invance unless it's absolutely necessary to go out.

 

(And again, the map would have been more like this from the start, no discussion, had there been active map editors when invances were created.)