KF proposed changes

[mattyu]

KF proposed changes:

 

• Adding cooldown to summoning stones  (15-20 seconds per stone)    Current CD on stones is 3 seconds (((up to 18 summons in 27 seconds) *RIDICULOUS*  )) IF it is easier to just eliminate the stones in KF - fine    (This would eliminate the zoo, and also the unfair amount of gc being spent when lower levels fight upper levels.  a 130s a/d character typically cannot afford to blow 100k worth of summoning stones in a fight like the pros) This will also open up the window for lower levels to be able to range without being flooded with a zoo (Annoying for players like me) but hell of a good time for the lower players just trying to kill :-)
• Eliminating all skill/attribute caps  eliminate the map cap
• Eliminate cooldown on srs/emps or ELIMINATE BEAVER TOKENS IN PK Eliminate cooldown for ATLEAST SRs/EMPs IF tokens are still allowed in PK (KF)    Lets face it, fighting against someone carrying several beaver tokens is unfair to the lower levels who struggle for enough gc. The biggest expense in pk should be HE/SRs (To keep it fun for everyone)
• **CREATING A SAFE AREA FOR SPECTATORS**   Just by adding a small square inside map for spectators to watch and wait could be beneficial to pking. there is several people who never thought they would enjoy pk because they were never given the chance to watch without risking death/rostos.     Arenas are fun, but they are not nearly as fun as guild warfare - anyone can tell you this.     Allowing a safe square would give people opportunity to (unfortunately) "cheap shot" BUT that is a fun risk that I think we all can agree on.    With this safe area, I believe it is a 'must' to not allow magic inside the square, this would eliminate pre casting offensive spells.   KF already had a radiation damage at the flag, I don't think it is too powerful for a spectator to maintain - keep it.  They will either have to leave map or exit square to heal.     
• The spectating area will allow a lot more opportunities for the map, PK contests ETC, however the safe area is designed, I feel it should be rather large and able to hold several people in this case.
• Mines/wards Expensive, but truly a factor of the game now, Allow them, to their full power, 1s cooldown is sufficient. Wards will be much less fatal with the summoning stone's nerfed.
• Natural summons They have been put on the back burner long enough, I'd like to see more of the skill being put to use, the skill is broken when you can create an armed orc summ stone cheaper than naturally summoning the creature.  (maybe future update to formulas will make this skill a better asset to pk)

 

 

Regardless, PK should be fun for all, doing this to the map WILL allow lower levels a chance, especially if cooldown is removed for mana use.     No reason a little guy should be worrying about going in and getting a 100 stones used on them, completely draining their mana, while the 'wealthier' players are able to buy all the tokens and use them during a fight.    PK should be a FUN part of the game, not one where you have to take a mortgage out on your fight.  I have spoken with even the elite list of pkers also a ton of non elite future pkers.   this seems to work best, challenging the strong, creating potential for the training.            

• Below is the proposed KF map safe area, (Not to size, but we will leave that up to Burn man and Radu)

Edited July 24, 2021 by mattyu

[Inferno]

Summon stone cooldown would be the biggest fatest upvote for me. AS someone who used to love PK'ing it is almost single handedly the reason I dont bother or care to participate these days. I dont feel like dropping a ton of GC on summon stones. As far as mines and engineering is concerned it never bothered me too much anyway as it is a no drop map. A safe zone would be a cool idea to me as well because i'd love for more of the map to be used than the entrance to VoTD lol. 

[KoDdy]

or just add #spec command allowed only in kf, u will not be able to do anything and sit, but u won't get attacked

[StouXy]

3 hours ago, KoDdy said:

or just add #spec command allowed only in kf, u will not be able to do anything and sit, but u won't get attacked

I like this one.

ALSO: While you're at all these changes, remove the stupidly idiotic cap for engineering/summoning ( Which is supposedly 100 now ). Like what's the point of lvling your engineering and summoning above 100, when your mobs/mines get capped? Thanks

EDIT: Oh and also, create a copy of EL, but make it a/d/attribs capped. So everyone is like 130 a/d and can fight

Edited June 22, 2021 by StouXy

[revi]

4 hours ago, StouXy said:

EDIT: Oh and also, create a copy of EL, but make it a/d/attribs capped. So everyone is like 130 a/d and can fight

That already exists, it's called "the PK server" (ok, not sure if it's the same otherwise)

[violater]

Adding cooldown to summoning stones  : just remove stones/summon 

Eliminating all skill/attribute caps :   that will make it easy to fa kill lower lvl dont see why tht shud be changed , only benefits higher lvl

Eliminate cooldown on srs/emps or ELIMINATE BEAVER TOKENS IN PK   : i do understand the gc factor here but sr and emp works fine with cooldown and why shud u eliminate beaver? low lvl can farm their own beaver token and higher lvl can buy so works out fine

**CREATING A SAFE AREA FOR SPECTATORS**    : this i  agree , kf need safe spot to watch the bloodshed

Mines/wards :  how does tht help low lvl? u can double harm any low lvl , it looks just fine the way it is, unless u want to put a 49 cap to magic lvl then u can call it fair for low lvl

Natural summons  : either have summons with stones included or dont , u cant have it ur way

 

well kf sux now but the most of changes u want will only help the higher lvl give or take :>

[dragon_killer]

Having a non combat zone seems to be a very good idea.

I could picture a non pk zone and a pk zone just like dpa and it's surrounding, so that we can have watchers only in some part of the map. And the rest of the map could be as kf used to be.

[mattyu]

11 hours ago, violater said:

Adding cooldown to summoning stones  : just remove stones/summon 

Eliminating all skill/attribute caps :   that will make it easy to fa kill lower lvl dont see why tht shud be changed , only benefits higher lvl

Eliminate cooldown on srs/emps or ELIMINATE BEAVER TOKENS IN PK   : i do understand the gc factor here but sr and emp works fine with cooldown and why shud u eliminate beaver? low lvl can farm their own beaver token and higher lvl can buy so works out fine

**CREATING A SAFE AREA FOR SPECTATORS**    : this i  agree , kf need safe spot to watch the bloodshed

Mines/wards :  how does tht help low lvl? u can double harm any low lvl , it looks just fine the way it is, unless u want to put a 49 cap to magic lvl then u can call it fair for low lvl

Natural summons  : either have summons with stones included or dont , u cant have it ur way

 

well kf sux now but the most of changes u want will only help the higher lvl give or take :>

It would help if you would read.   Also the changes would not help only higher players...   

[Diealot]

I am by no means a PK expert. As I mentioned in the other KF thread, the rules are confusing and the common strategies aren't really my playstyle. For my own 'list-o-KF-fixes' :

Your points of eliminate SR/pot cooldown, remove the caps, and make a spectator area all make sense to me. Eliminating SR cooldown would additionally further incentivize use of KF (it's a heckuva lot closer to sto than TD), increasing the likelihood I'd ever actually go to the map.

 

You have a yes from me.

 

Repeating what I've said in the other thread:

 

Do basically anything the folks above are suggesting cause the current sucks and I currently have no reason to ever go to KF.

 

[caladina]

beaver tokens should have a cooldown at least on them, in pk the beaver tokens have made the orc slayer of nullification effect useless.
having the effect is one way to end a tedious resource slog
in normal use or  invasions a cooldown on beaver tokens wont make a difference

[Maxine]

On 22/06/2021 at 12:36 AM, mattyu said:

KF proposed changes:

 

• Adding cooldown to summoning stones  (15-20 seconds per stone)    Current CD on stones is 3 seconds (((up to 18 summons in 27 seconds) *RIDICULOUS*  )) IF it is easier to just eliminate the stones in KF - fine    (This would eliminate the zoo, and also the unfair amount of gc being spent when lower levels fight upper levels.  a 130s a/d character typically cannot afford to blow 100k worth of summoning stones in a fight like the pros) This will also open up the window for lower levels to be able to range without being flooded with a zoo (Annoying for players like me) but hell of a good time for the lower players just trying to kill :-)
• Eliminating all skill/attribute caps  eliminate the map cap
• Eliminate cooldown on srs/emps or ELIMINATE BEAVER TOKENS IN PK Eliminate cooldown for ATLEAST SRs/EMPs     Lets face it, fighting against someone carrying several beaver tokens is unfair to the lower levels who struggle for enough gc. The biggest expense in pk should be HE/SRs (To keep it fun for everyone)
• **CREATING A SAFE AREA FOR SPECTATORS**   Just by adding a small square inside map for spectators to watch and wait could be beneficial to pking. there is several people who never thought they would enjoy pk because they were never given the chance to watch without risking death/rostos.     Arenas are fun, but they are not nearly as fun as guild warfare - anyone can tell you this.     Allowing a safe square would give people opportunity to (unfortunately) "cheap shot" BUT that is a fun risk that I think we all can agree on.    With this safe area, I believe it is a 'must' to not allow magic inside the square, this would eliminate pre casting offensive spells.   KF already had a radiation damage at the flag, I don't think it is too powerful for a spectator to maintain - keep it.  They will either have to leave map or exit square to heal.     
• The spectating area will allow a lot more opportunities for the map, PK contests ETC, however the safe area is designed, I feel it should be rather large and able to hold several people in this case.
• Mines/wards Expensive, but truly a factor of the game now, Allow them, to their full power, 1s cooldown is sufficient. Wards will be much less fatal with the summoning stone's nerfed.
• Natural summons They have been put on the back burner long enough, I'd like to see more of the skill being put to use, the skill is broken when you can create an armed orc summ stone cheaper than naturally summoning the creature.  (maybe future update to formulas will make this skill a better asset to pk)

 

 

Regardless, PK should be fun for all, doing this to the map WILL allow lower levels a chance, especially if cooldown is removed for mana use.     No reason a little guy should be worrying about going in and getting a 100 stones used on them, completely draining their mana, while the 'wealthier' players are able to buy all the tokens and use them during a fight.    PK should be a FUN part of the game, not one where you have to take a mortgage out on your fight.  I have spoken with even the elite list of pkers also a ton of non elite future pkers.   this seems to work best, challenging the strong, creating potential for the training.            

• Below is the proposed KF map safe area, (Not to size, but we will leave that up to Burn man and Radu)

Just a quick note with respect to the proposed safe area. 

In the past we have had 'Capture the flag' type of events, using Fort Garisn and Fort Baarq as home basis. Fort Mardyn gives a good vantage point for such events and is reachable from the SKF entrance in about 10 seconds. There is food there, also nice for long events, similar to most of the arena stands. It is already clearly marked off. It could easily (?) be made non-magic and non-pk. It probably also needs to have no-summoning, but that could also be achieved by adding a gate to the entrance. Maybe the portal entry point could then also be moved there, making it an easy place to enter the map for spectators. 

I have no opinion on the other changes mentioned here, the only time I ever participated in pk was during such events.

[Kaddy]

Eliminating cooldown on SRs and eliminating beaver tokens are pretty much the same thing and it's stupid.

 

Making things like OSoMN, JSoC useless. SR should still have a cooldown, so should EMPs. But remove beaver tokens from KF. Fighting someone with 460 HP, 500 something mana already feels like forever, now you wanna go for no cooldown SR lol... It will be a fight like "who gonna run out of HE or MI first?" 

[mattyu]

On 7/13/2021 at 1:41 AM, Kaddy said:

Eliminating cooldown on SRs and eliminating beaver tokens are pretty much the same thing and it's stupid.

 

Making things like OSoMN, JSoC useless. SR should still have a cooldown, so should EMPs. But remove beaver tokens from KF. Fighting someone with 460 HP, 500 something mana already feels like forever, now you wanna go for no cooldown SR lol... It will be a fight like "who gonna run out of HE or MI first?" 

Please refer to the 'or' in the original post

[Aislinn]

Given that 1)we do not want to squander this opportunity, and 2)that time is slipping by, and 3)getting a consensus on what to change beyond the basics will be impossible given how this thread has gone, I propose this be presented to radu asap:

 

1. The cap limit be removed

2. It remain no-drop.

3. A safe area with no magic/summoning be added as described above.

 

I believe that beyond getting radu's approval, the work involved would fall to Burn.

[StouXy]

7 hours ago, Aislinn said:

Given that 1)we do not want to squander this opportunity, and 2)that time is slipping by, and 3)getting a consensus on what to change beyond the basics will be impossible given how this thread has gone, I propose this be presented to radu asap:

 

1. The cap limit be removed

2. It remain no-drop.

3. A safe area with no magic/summoning be added as described above.

 

I believe that beyond getting radu's approval, the work involved would fall to Burn.

For sure. 

Although, I would add:

- Make tokens to not work in KF ( Beaver, brownie etc... )

- Maybe add higher cooldown to summoning stones? A lot of people complain about the zoo.

[Aislinn]

Law of unintended consequences leads me to want to keep this list to the first three.  If this is accepted and then goes well, we can revisit the other items.

 

1. Remove KF cap limit.

2. Leave KF as no-drop.

3. A safe area for spectators be added as described above with no magic and no summoning, maybe with a little tweaking to be discussed with Burn.

 

I will direct radu to this post and he may or may not read up through the whole thing.

[Entropy]

So let us say all those things get implemented. What do you think will change? You think players will frolic there and PK each other?

 

[Ozmondius]

That is the goal, Radu.  I know you have changed this here and that there trying to please people and increase PK activity.  I believe the above recommendations will help.   I promise to do my part.

[Kaddy]

And I promise to keep Ozzy busy.

[Maxine]

and I will come and watch

[mattyu]

On 7/21/2021 at 6:26 PM, Entropy said:

So let us say all those things get implemented. What do you think will change? You think players will frolic there and PK each other?

 

I will also do my part.  I do believe, the safe area, and nerfing the cooldowns/token usage would be a big step towards people joining/learning/watching in PK.

[the_grud]

not being a PKer and proffess to know little about it

Why not within a viewing area have a area where if you die ,,,you go to that area instead of underworld if you die .... and have a walk of shame past the viewing area  to exit it (you could only exit the PK **death area** not enter it....

[Entropy]

The thing is, what some PKers told me, and it's true, is something along the lines: In PK you only loose things (resources, possibly broken armor, rostos, etc.) and gain nothing in return.

So no matter how perfect a PK map is, people might pk there for a few days as a novelty factor, then stop PKing. Nothing I did, with various PKing systems (kf, td, multiple arenas with level caps, single and multi pk, etc.) ever worked after 2010 or so, when most of the PKers left.

 

[daniken]

On 7/21/2021 at 7:26 PM, Entropy said:

So let us say all those things get implemented. What do you think will change? You think players will frolic there and PK each other?

 

I can't speak for everyone, but If all combat tokens did not work in pk, and there was more cooldown on summoning stones, I would start to PK regularly.

PK should absolutely be a gc sink. But should also have an emphasis on skill to actually win. Tokens take a ton of skill out of the equation.
If i had to name one thing on this who list that would make a difference, I would say Beaver/Brownie and other combat-related tokens should not work at all.
-Brownie Token - gear selection is severely limited by Brownie token... no brownie token means people don't have to wear mage skirt or cotu 100% of the time. Not only does this eliminate many gear options; People who trained crafting are screwed on using combat rings, and you can rarely even try to BroD someone :/
-Beaver Token - One of the main skills of pk is managing mana. Beaver tokens ruin this and/or make fights last too long.

When I hosted pk tournament recently, I tried to outlaw tokens, but discovered token use was not detectable by mods. It was extremely difficult to run the tournament as a normal player, so instead of making it more complicated, i just removed the "no tokens" rule - the first match was under 2 seconds, because of the brownie tokens, and the entire rest of the tournament everyone had to wear cotu or mage pants. Quite a few fights were determined purely by who had more gc to burn, instead of skill.
I think if there was no token use, quite a few more fighters would've participated.

Tokens are great for invasions etc, and great for helping newbies advance quicker (by selling), but they are extremely detrimental to PK.

I plan on running a lot more pk events, providing prizes etc, so i think if the cost was a bit lower and the chances of winning a bit higher for players, a lot more would participate And hopefully others will start doing some contests etc as well. 
If i had to pick ONE item from the list of proposed changes, Tokens disabled for PK would be it.

 

----Original Poster---
My thoughts, in terms of getting "lower levels" into PK:

• Adding cooldown to summoning stones  : Don't eliminate anything that relates to another skill besides a/d. Nothing. All this does is remove players who would participate.
  Cooldown increase is a GREAT idea
• Eliminating all skill/attribute caps  I see no way this benefits lower levels from entering, in fact, it does the opposite. I would propose eliminating the cap in either the forts, or in the field (keeping the cap in the forts). I would say don't completely remove it from entire map. If Desert Pines can have two arenas with different caps, KF can have a no pk area, a capped area, and an uncapped area. I think this would be best for everyone.
• Eliminate cooldown on srs/emps or ELIMINATE BEAVER TOKENS IN PK :  Eliminate ALL TOKENS from PK. They are great for other purposes, but death for PK.
• **CREATING A SAFE AREA FOR SPECTATORS**   Fantastic idea. Best idea on here besides Eliminating Tokens.
• The spectating area +1
• Mines/wards Yes, allow Engineering items full, normal power. Anything keeping different styles of players/characters out of PK is bad for PK.
• Natural summons I like it, but this is such a big change, it should probably have its own topic.

[mattyu]

23 hours ago, Entropy said:

The thing is, what some PKers told me, and it's true, is something along the lines: In PK you only loose things (resources, possibly broken armor, rostos, etc.) and gain nothing in return.

So no matter how perfect a PK map is, people might pk there for a few days as a novelty factor, then stop PKing. Nothing I did, with various PKing systems (kf, td, multiple arenas with level caps, single and multi pk, etc.) ever worked after 2010 or so, when most of the PKers left.

 

Can we not add an incentive for pking? 

Kills can reward #ii credits/exp/Haidir time    

Deaths can also give exp bonus

 

PK central can control whether the rewards are being abused by alts ETC.

 

Just an idea.   But an incentive to any and all PK would be ideal.