EL Instance Type 2

[Rabbitman]

All,

 

Here is a new instance style I wanted to propose and get some feedback from the community. The hope is this would not replace current instances but just add a new style of instance for players to do for fun and drops. The general idea is that mobs spawn in a map all at once, and your goal as a team is to kill as much as you can before the time/your resources run out. If you want bosses, you need to try to fight them while there are other things around as well. Creatures will respawn if the mob count gets low enough. The general style would be independent of a/d range, although I would assume the actual mobs/bosses that spawn would change for various levels.

 

Eternal Lands Instance Type 2 (tldr)

Instance details:
- Maximum instance time: 90 minutes
- Randomized mobs spawn in map based on a/d range. Note: Bosses are mixed in with normal mobs as well
- If mob count gets below a randomized threshold between (50-100) more mobs will spawn
- The instance will only end when less than 3 players remain in the map (either through death with no rosto or teleport out via ring or teleport to portals room) or 90 minutes have passed

Map details:
- Multiple map types (~1-10)
- Full arena with no cover
- Tree fort style like willowvine forest
- Arena with choke point
- Cliffs style like bethel cliffs
- Dungeon with cages
- Map type not linked to combat range (Think similar to invance map being used for all invance ranges)

- Map type randomly chosen at start of instance (So players do not know which one they will be in when they start)
- Players enter in a separate room with a one way portal to instance map
- Server will tell them which map type in which they have arrived
- On death with rosto, players will return to staging area

[BlakKat]

I like the idea a lot. Such an instance would call for more advanced tactical elements than the usually tank/hitter or tank/ranger arrangements. I also like that it promises to be much less predictable than normal instances/invances with serious chances for at least partial failures.

 

The maps should be on the small side so that it is not too easy to separate the bosses from the main mob. Somewhat random bosses with random spawn points would be also good, so that one would need to do some scouting through the mob. One also might consider wiping hyperbags regularly so that resources could become a more effective bottleneck.

[revi]

The best fighters can kill virtually any mob in game in a ridiculously short time. So they could farm a lot of waves. And for the lower a/d level players, either the monsters are too hard for any but the strongest in each group, or it becomes a farm fest (as well?).

 

And that could be a disaster in terms of gc inflow. Otoh, item drops instead of GC means inventory is going to fill up fast, leading to fighters only keeping the best/most valuable drops, or bailing out when inv full. Not really good either way.

 

But such an instance could be a good way to experiment with another way of setting player levels, e.g. based on combat level (the same formula as used to determine ignore levels could be used here as well, at least as a first try). That would mean that players less specialised in fighting would also have a chance to try such activities, current invasions/invances are frankly too difficult for mixer types most of the time.

 

I'm not too worried about the hyperbags, especially if there are 10 maps to choose from: you have a good chance that someone else grabs your bag before you get that map again (and leaving them in the staging area is really asking for trouble, I can already see teams of three alts going in just to search for hyperbags...).

[Rabbitman]

The best fighters can kill virtually any mob in game in a ridiculously short time. So they could farm a lot of waves. And for the lower a/d level players, either the monsters are too hard for any but the strongest in each group, or it becomes a farm fest (as well?).

 

And that could be a disaster in terms of gc inflow. Otoh, item drops instead of GC means inventory is going to fill up fast, leading to fighters only keeping the best/most valuable drops, or bailing out when inv full. Not really good either way.

 

 

I can see where you are coming from with this, but I'd like to clarify on your first two points. To the first point, it entirely depends on how the balancing would be done by level. Ideally the instance would be balanced that multiple waves would really only happen if the team was very large and organized because the difficulty on these instances would be much higher than traditional instances. My general though on creature composition for these instances would contain four classes of creatures in the instance:

 

1. Below level

2. On level

3. Above level

4. Bosses

 

Note: Not every creature listed in 1-4 for any of the instances I mention would spawn every time. It would be randomized such that sometimes you will have the potential for a much harder instance than others. Sometimes you will have the potential for a much more profitable than others. If we take the uncapped range as a case study (designed for say 150-180 a/d), the base creatures for the instance in each range could potentially be something like:

 

1. Yeti, bears, white tigers, hawks, Cockatrice, Arctic Chimerans

2. Little blue dragons, little pink dragons, giants, nasparliu

3. Red Dragons, Black Dragons, Ice Dragons, Blue dragons

4. Castellan, Mare Bulangiu, Milf, Choco Orc

 

I've played on some of the strongest characters in the game, and I'll let you know that trying to melee multiple big dragons down at a time burns many resources and will get you killed on critical hits if you aren't careful. Remember, this instance would be limited resources, so if someone goes into the middle and tries to macho a boss with dragons on their back they will run out of resources before killing the boss. As an example, every once and awhile high levelled characters will start at the Mare Bulangiu spawn in the 145-200 invance to try and kill them right off. Invariably the team gets swamped by ice dragons and giants by the time one is dead even with 4-5 characters each 165+ a/d helping. If the team manages to actually kill the MB (which does not always happen), pretty much every player there needs to restock after because they have burned through all the he/sr they brought with them. I would imagine this instance would work the same way. I would imagine even a team of ~5 characters all 170+ a/d would have difficulty trying to get a Castellan killed in this instance with all the other creatures around...But it would be a really fun goal to aspire to which would keep them coming back trying again and again.

 

As a second example, if the designed range was say 140-160 a/d, the possible creatures may look something like this:

 

1. Yeti, Frost Trolls, Mountain Chimerans, bears, white tigers, hawks

2. Cockatrice, Arctic Chimerans, nasparliu

3. Little blue dragons, giants, Red Dragons

4. Milf, Choco Orc, Jegos, Polyphemus

 

For a third example let's go a bit lower and say the designed range was 60-80 a/d, the possible creatures may look something like this:

 

1. Hawks, Male Ogres, Armed Male Orcs, Armed Female Orcs, Male Orcs, Female Orcs

2. Cyclops, Feros, Fluffy Rabbits, white tigers

3. Melteans, Chitros, Desert Chimerans

4. Scarba, Japitas, Polyphemus, Dilimac

 

To point two, we can argue about the number of mobs dying in these instances may be higher than in normal instances which may increase drops, but I think if it were designed as I suggested the number of bosses killed would be comparable to traditional instances (2-3). I might be wrong on this, in which case it would need to be rebalanced of course, but that is my estimation based on a lot of experience. As an aside, remember compared to bosses normal creatures really don't drop much at all in instances (invasions are different due to tokens/10k drops/etc). If you think about it, in 120-200 instance 45 giants and 90 nasparliu together on average should drop ~60kgc which approximately matches the drop from a single boss from the rest of the instance. As an aside, is style of instance is always something that can be added in an initial form on test server and balanced before coming to main.

[revi]

First, thank you for the explanations, I'm a noob fighter...

 

And that sounds like a very well-balanced approach. And it would make a nice challenge for the top in each range.

I'm not going to give my view on the chance to get it on test first for balancing, though

 

It just leaves my second point that it's again something for the (top) fighters in each range.

But I guess that's another discussion

Edited October 11, 2015 by revi

[Aislinn]

I'm all for another kind of instance but how about levels decided by something other than just a/d? This seems no different than what we have now: way too hard for most players in the given level. Can something be done for normal players without the pr0 combat build who want to participate?

[Elke]

I'm all for another kind of instance but how about levels decided by something other than just a/d? This seems no different than what we have now: way too hard for most players in the given level. Can something be done for normal players without the pr0 combat build who want to participate?

Indeed, the focus on a/d alone does not work very well as one easily sees when the PP are not spent on combat-relevant attributes and perks. The game has, however, already another (badly documented) means to measure combat capability: the combat level. That seems to take into account physique and coordination as well. Maybe this (or something along this line) can be used?

 

For a third example let's go a bit lower and say the designed range was 60-80 a/d, the possible creatures may look something like this:

 

1. Hawks, Male Ogres, Armed Male Orcs, Armed Female Orcs, Male Orcs, Female Orcs

2. Cyclops, Feros, Fluffy Rabbits, white tigers

3. Melteans, Chitros, Desert Chimerans

4. Scarba, Japitas, Polyphemus, Dilimac

 

 

This may work - for those builds which focus exclusively on fighting and which also got enough gc to buy the most pro gear. If you don't do so, it's already hard to impossible to beat a feros, fluffy or white tiger at a/d 80. Thus Aislin's suggestion to go by the actual combat capability seems to me much more fun, appropriate and fruitful.

[BlakKat]

Maybe, the instancer rank together with a/d could be used to determine the level of mobs? For instance, a/d determines what kind of mob will spawn and the average of the instancer ranks of all characters present at the (re)spawn determines how many non-bosses? One consequence would be that beginners would be actually welcome to join teams. The combat level as currently implemented is probably not well suited to replace a/d as a guide to decide for levels. I know plenty characters with combat level ~220 who (can) melee the invasion dragon ...

One way to involve more normal players is to offer an incentive to go with more people. This would encourage the experienced instancers to recruit players who feel not so comfortable to instance. Having mobs around the bosses could provide that incentive: you simply might want to have one/two or more extra fighters/rangers around to distract the mob while fighting that scary tough boss.

 

Another way to encourage normal players to go would be to find a larger variety of "useful" tasks. Some of those could be scouting (you might no idea when the new wave is coming, especially if #ii gives you no information), finding the next boss, managing resources, keeping a room free of mob by pinning a mob in a choke point, mixing HEs and SRs with things harvested in the instance , etc..

[revi]

Your use of the expression "normal players" (and the quotes around 'useful') seem to imply that you are quite willing to give us "normal players" something to do, so we can say we participated, while the real fighters get on with the real job of killing the monsters.

 

Under those conditions, this "normal player" refuses to participate...

Edited October 13, 2015 by revi

[Rabbitman]

To be honest, my original vision of this instance was designed for experienced teams and fighters in each range. Of course the general idea for the instance doesn't really require that to be the case, but that was my thought. If this were added as an alternative for stronger fighters, the other instances could be re-balanced more toward all-rounder builds.

 

As far as using combat level instead of a/d for instances goes, in theory I am for this. However in practice there are a few problems with it. First combat level is a hidden parameter in the game. If we are going to divide instances by combat level, players need to know what their combat level is. Second, combat level only takes into account a/d and select cross attributes, and (at least at higher a/d) weighs things oddly. As an example, imagine 2 players who are both 150 a/d but with different attributes:

 

Bill

 

150/150 a/d with 48/48/48/48/48/48 from bought pp.

 

Joe

 

150/150 a/d, overall 165 with capped nexus at 40 with zero bought pp. A possible build for Joe without any perks or bought pp would be: 48/48/16/4/16/16

 

Bill's combat level is 393, whereas Joe's is 334. That's only a difference of 59; whereas the number pp different is 140. For their CL to be same with the builds I mentioned above, Bill's a/d would need to be ~110.I guarantee you someone who is experienced in fighting will have an easier time meleeing a giant on Joe than on Bill if Bill's a/d was 110 with capped attributes.

 

If combat level is to be used to divide instances, the premise needs to be rethought, and it needs to be expanded to consider other skills as well (ranging, magic, summoning).

 

 

I'm all for another kind of instance but how about levels decided by something other than just a/d? This seems no different than what we have now: way too hard for most players in the given level. Can something be done for normal players without the pr0 combat build who want to participate?

Indeed, the focus on a/d alone does not work very well as one easily sees when the PP are not spent on combat-relevant attributes and perks. The game has, however, already another (badly documented) means to measure combat capability: the combat level. That seems to take into account physique and coordination as well. Maybe this (or something along this line) can be used?

 

For a third example let's go a bit lower and say the designed range was 60-80 a/d, the possible creatures may look something like this:

 

1. Hawks, Male Ogres, Armed Male Orcs, Armed Female Orcs, Male Orcs, Female Orcs

2. Cyclops, Feros, Fluffy Rabbits, white tigers

3. Melteans, Chitros, Desert Chimerans

4. Scarba, Japitas, Polyphemus, Dilimac

 

 

This may work - for those builds which focus exclusively on fighting and which also got enough gc to buy the most pro gear. If you don't do so, it's already hard to impossible to beat a feros, fluffy or white tiger at a/d 80. Thus Aislin's suggestion to go by the actual combat capability seems to me much more fun, appropriate and fruitful.

 

 

A small note on this. If you have a strong understanding of the combat system, you can do so much more than you think with lower a/d/pp than people think. My <60 alt can do feros/fluffy/wt fairly well in steel set with a holam and scythe if I need and he has 0 bought pp.

[BlakKat]

Your use of the expression "normal players" (and the quotes around 'useful') seem to imply that you are quite willing to give us "normal players" something to do, so we can say we participated, while the real fighters get on with the real job of killing the monsters.

 

Under those conditions, this "normal player" refuses to participate...

I am sorry that you take it that way. I used the quotes around "normal" because I did not like the expression, probably because of the very problem you seem to have with it. With respect to your second point: In my experience, a major concern players have when they asked to go for their first instance is whether they can be "useful". I simply do not think that there is any useful task in any game besides having fun, feeling satisfaction or whatever you might want to call it.

[Aislinn]

Maybe, the instancer rank together with a/d could be used to determine the level of mobs? For instance, a/d determines what kind of mob will spawn and the average of the instancer ranks of all characters present at the (re)spawn determines how many non-bosses? One consequence would be that beginners would be actually welcome to join teams. The combat level as currently implemented is probably not well suited to replace a/d as a guide to decide for levels. I know plenty characters with combat level ~220 who (can) melee the invasion dragon ...

One way to involve more normal players is to offer an incentive to go with more people. This would encourage the experienced instancers to recruit players who feel not so comfortable to instance. Having mobs around the bosses could provide that incentive: you simply might want to have one/two or more extra fighters/rangers around to distract the mob while fighting that scary tough boss.

 

Another way to encourage normal players to go would be to find a larger variety of "useful" tasks. Some of those could be scouting (you might no idea when the new wave is coming, especially if #ii gives you no information), finding the next boss, managing resources, keeping a room free of mob by pinning a mob in a choke point, mixing HEs and SRs with things harvested in the instance , etc..

 

Meh. This sounds like what we have now and it's not much fun.

[Aislinn]

To be honest, my original vision of this instance was designed for experienced teams and fighters in each range. Of course the general idea for the instance doesn't really require that to be the case, but that was my thought. If this were added as an alternative for stronger fighters, the other instances could be re-balanced more toward all-rounder builds.

 

Well, okay then.

 

Somehow I doubt much will be "re-balanced" in the old ones.

[Multani]

Felt entusiasm on Rabbits general ideas, must be nice some changes for balance/re equal the instances purpouses for every EL player, even being pure fighter or all rounder-mixer.

[Rabbitman]

 

To be honest, my original vision of this instance was designed for experienced teams and fighters in each range. Of course the general idea for the instance doesn't really require that to be the case, but that was my thought. If this were added as an alternative for stronger fighters, the other instances could be re-balanced more toward all-rounder builds.

 

Well, okay then.

 

Somehow I doubt much will be "re-balanced" in the old ones.

 

 

I've thought about it a bit more and I don't think the specific instances I mentioned here would work well for lower range fighters. The way this is designed players would be in multi-combat for much of the instance and depending on which map you are in there may or may not be places to hide from the mobs.

 

As far as instances with less dedicated fighters go, I think map design plays a key role. Specifcally, the maps need to be designed with choke points in mind so that teams can funnel the creatures and multi them if they play smart. The mountain and swamp instance maps have a fair amount of areas like this, see the various bowls creatures spawn. Sadly the ice instance and wtf instance don't really have many choke points for creatures. If someone good with the map editor wants to adjust the ice instance a bit I can give suggestions to make the map itself a bit more balanced....however, Radu would still need to be convinced if it were to make it to main server.

[Elke]

 

To be honest, my original vision of this instance was designed for experienced teams and fighters in each range. Of course the general idea for the instance doesn't really require that to be the case, but that was my thought. If this were added as an alternative for stronger fighters, the other instances could be re-balanced more toward all-rounder builds.

 

Well, okay then.

 

Somehow I doubt much will be "re-balanced" in the old ones.

 

Indeed I don't think this game lacks challanges for the 'experienced fighters' in the ranges - the instances already work that way.

 

Rather the problem is that you cannot fight instances (or invances) with much success, when you are not a fighter build or are only at the beginning of the range. It would need a mechanism to better judge the fighting capability than simply attack and defence values.

 

Or it would simply need the freedom to pick different "instances" (or however you want to call it), independent of any attribute or skill - players simply choose to participate in whatever suits them. And the reward would scale (similar to current ones) with the difficulty (as it does now). But it would allow everyone to enjoy whatever he or she thinks is adequate for the current build. And as you choose the people to go into an instance, there's no problem really with different combat capabilities either. If one really wants to make sure that no single person can beat an entire instance, introduce a damage counter, compare that to the total hitpoints of the monsters of that instance and cap the possible damage of each participant at 50% or 33% of the total hitpoints of all monsters combined (though then restored HP by magic to others and damage dealt by summoned creatures or arrows and engineering should count towards this, too)

Edited October 14, 2015 by Elke

[revi]

The problem with both rebalancing for non-fighter builds and allowing free access to the different levels is that the strong fighters will figure out quickly which gives the most profit, and some will just farm those, and ignore the others. And they won't care that they block the map for the target group (for those that remember, that was basically the reason capped invasions were introduced: asking nicely if the high-level fighters would avoid a certain map didn't work).

[BlakKat]

I think this kind of farming problem could be avoided by not allowing somebody with instance rank >=2 to go below his/her level.

 

Proposal: instancer rank 0 characters could go to instances 0 to 2 levels below,

rank 1 could go to instances 0 to 1 below his/her range.

 

By the time you have rank 2 you probably have enough experience to survive an instance in your range. I would even venture to claim that many of the non-fighters would then be able to tank the instance provided they would be willing to use here and there a couple of emps and risk a rosto or two. Oh, yes, and one will want to have human 5 to wear a steel set and CoL. Whether non-fighters would enjoy tanking one is of course another matter.

 

As a general remark: I think that being successful in an instance is first a matter of experience and team-work, then one of the built. If you have one player who has enough experience to form a team, you very likely will win the instance even if the whole team (including that experienced player) has not a very strong fighting/tanking built.