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mufossa

BOMB PROTECTION IN PK!

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Stivy, can you please post the calculations you told me last night about how someone with good health and armor can't die on map entry?

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one thought, have a rosto of mine protection? maybe 1 x rosto x amount of eng pots makes it!! You lose rosto but still alive and its stackable , then up2 players if they want to use it for pk, hydro runs!!

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I will present the mining entrance calculations below. The known facts/assumptions I use in this calculation are listed below:

 

Known:

 

1. Optimal mine placement - 8 rc mines around player (4 for direct damage, 4 for indirect) and 1 high explosive mine on entrance location (direct damage).

 

2. Direct placement does 100% raw damage.

3. Indirect placement does 50% raw damage.

4. 1 armour removes 1 damage from each mine.

5. Maximum armour is 41 without ecolam, 39 with ecolam.

6. Maximum hp is 475 with ecolam, 445 without (assuming no mol/spoh/sop shenanigans prior to map entry).

 

Assumptions:

 

1. No hope perk gives 20% bonus to all mines (unless it is fixed it actually does not give bonus to high explosive iirc, but only to remote mines).

 

Thus the calculation for no ecolam (445 hp and 41 armour) is:

 

#calc 4*(75+x/5)*y+4*(75+x/5)/2*y+(125+x/5)*y-9*z = t

 

where x is engineering level of opponent, y is the presence of no hope perk (1 if no perk, 1.2 if perk), z is armour, and t is total damage/max health. This equation reduces to:

 

x = (5*(t-575*y+9*z))/(7*y)

 

Thus, for the case where the bomber has no hope perk, the victim has 41 armour and 445 health (best case scenario), the required engineering level to kill them on entry is:

 

x = (5*(445-575*1.2+9*41))/(7*1.2) = 74, round up 75.

 

If we assume the player does not have no hope perk, the calculation changes to:

 

x = (5*(445-575*1+9*41))/(7*1) = 170.7, round up 175.

 

This is much less doable but still possible. Now, in the event that the large mine does not get a bonus, it is still possible to kill the player by sitting next to spawn and ctl+1,ctl+2 spamming rc mine/detonator for additional damage. It is easily possible to get another 4 mines in which would deal additional damage. There are ways to mitigate this method of course, such as using ghp/restore during map change; however, that is inconsistent at best..which is why I said on @@6 that it is basically a 50/50 chance if both players do everything exactly properly.

 

Rabbitman

If I recall correctly, no hope perk gives +20% damage to all mines on raw damage. Armour subtracts -1 damage from each mine for each armour value. Assuming that the miner has no hope perk.

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Even if a player is able to survive being bombed upon entry I still find it unfair that they would be required to have maxed out will and physique to do so, alot of standard builds (especially at lower levels) are quite away from being at 48/48 phy/will. There should never ever be anything in any game that instantly kills 95% of the players (very rough guess that 5% of EL population has max phy/will) in the game if they have only just entered a map, no matter how dangerous that map is. I agree places such as the hydro route which is the most common place people are bombed upon entry shouldn't be able to go there with no threat, but to be instantly killed before the game has even loaded your client into the map is ridiculous, I 100% support some type of protection to bombs other than armour rating and having high HP so that being bombed upon entry of a map is very uncommon to do(if not impossible) as well as RC bomb spamming while in combat.

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a small likbez

i like to see people complaining about and not even try to understand/figure out how does the
system works (ffs do some real tests, not only assumptions..)

facts:
no hope gives 12% bonus on rcs, caltrops (for high mines actual damage is lowered by 10%)
there 9 effective squares to bomb (5 direct which gives you full damage and 4 diagonal which
gives half dmg and only then armor protection applies)

.........
....t.... F - target (full dmg ofc)
...hfh... f - full dmg
..tfFft.. h - halved
...hfh... t - triple reduced
....t.... . - other tiles. much lowered or none
.........


currently you can get up to 39 armor and 440 hp

lets look at pure real numbers, not just assumptions:

+--------------+--------------+
| perkless | no hope perk |
+----+------+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+
| lvl| type |base|full|dmgf|dmgh|full|dmgf|dmgh|
+----+------+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+
| 0 | high | 125| 125| 86 | 23 | 114| 75 | 18 |
| | rc | 75 | 75 | 36 | 0 | 84 | 45 | 3 |
+----+------+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+
| 50 | high | 125| 135| 96 | 28 | 123| 84 | 22 |
| | rc | 75 | 85 | 46 | 3 | 95 | 56 | 8 |
+----+------+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+
| 100| high | 125| 145| 106| 33 | 132| 93 | 27 |
| | rc | 75 | 95 | 56 | 8 | 106| 67 | 14 |
+----+------+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+


base - base damage
nh - no hope bonus if any (1 or 1.12)
armor= 39
full = base + lvl/5
dmgf = full*nh - armor
dmgh = full*nh/2 - armor (yeah first dmg is halved then goes through armor)

note: for high mines with no hope perk it works this way:
dmgf = full/1.1 - armor
dmgh = full/2.2 - armor

 

note: never tried small or medium mines with no hope (no point, since base damage is low..)

u can calculate yourself how many mines you need to kill such target or any other
even if u got 100 lvl and no hope perk and use 1 high & 8 rc mines thats
93+67*4+14*4 = 417 dmg
9 rcs would give you 67*5+14*4 = 391 dmg
so you can see you need to use another rc mine+det pair to kill a person already
ofc person can heal at that moment and you're failed no chance to kill
ofc 9 tiles to bomb is best scenario, not every entry has 9 tiles available..
it's already hard to kill some people (not just expensive) and you're saying
that we need more protection?

it's not only about deadly entrances, u forget another aspect of the game such as
hunting ppl with one perk, additional protection would give almost "absolute"
immune for such ppl and free 6 pps (ofc if they ain't afk)

also good luck to kill a moving trarged (yeah posible but hard.. done that tho..)

5 sec immune on map entrance? good luck place 5+ mines within few secs and ofc
you would know where your target will go/step in

on map change u've just 1-2 sec to bomb before your targed is moved or healed
(belive me i've good practice) and ofc u've to know that someone actually coming there.. :P

edit:

oh and don't you find out that diagonally placed mines is just a waste? ^^
it's helps, but just a little.. tbh all those 9 squares should give full damage (or at least
80-85% on diagonal, not 50%..)



so how I could see it:
70-80% damage for diagonally placed mines (which is halved atm)
2 sec cooldown on rc dets when engaged in combat
1 sec cooldown on rc dets when non-engaged

without no hope and 70% diagonal dmg (dd):
at lvl 100: 95*0.7-39 = 27 dd => 56*5+27*4 = 388
at lvl 50: 85*0.7-39 = 20 dd => 46*5+20*4 = 310
at lvl zero: 75*0.7-39 = 13 dd => 36*5+13*4 = 232


with no hope and 70% diagonal dmg (dd):
at lvl 100: 106*0.7-39 = 35 dd => 67*5+35*4 = 475
at lvl 50: 95*0.7-39 = 27 dd => 56*5+27*4 = 388
at lvl zero: 84*0.7-39 = 19 dd => 45*5+19*4 = 301


cost of 9 rc mines and 1 rc detonator set is: 2100*9+2350 = 21250

which seems fair for me, what do you think?
not so deadly in combat but still useful
still good for mining entracing and hunting oners

p.s.: and please remove "We entered the range of mine" for all except mine owner/placer
like you place caltrop/share/w/e in portals to look for oners and ppl immediately warns others
on channel 6 that there mines in portals :P

Edited by pipetz

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bombs really shouldn't work on peace day..that's just confusing and retarded

+1

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So I had the no hope numbers wrong :P, my bad I don't have the perk to test. Also, you can get 41 armour but max hp then is 415, so yea using 445 with 39 armour is a better estimate. And yes you need to consider 445 because you can br for +5 above max.

 

Running your same numbers, it only takes engineering level 120 with no hope perk to do more than 445 damage in a single hit with max armour. So it is definitely possible to get the kill on map change without an extra rc set. But really, the extra mine+det on entry to get the kill is easier than getting eng to 120.

 

If bombs are going to get nerfed in some other way, increasing the damage on diagonals would be good imo as they really don't do much at all atm.

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Yes, the bomb-upon-entrance is ridiculously frustrating, and probably needs to be altered... The " deadly entrances, honestly, who forbids you to do the same thing?" argument is silly -- just because I can do something too doesn't mean it's a good game mechanic :) but honestly, I don't think bombs are all that terrible as it is, given their expense.

 

Here's an interesting thought about this in the context of the hydro run: make s2e's stack. They weigh 7 EMU -- You'll still need to make 5 runs to get 500 hydro. I'm willing to risk a rosto or two that I can make it through 5 times, probably still get killed a bit, but be at least somewhat profitable... Maybe even risk a naked run hoping the stack of s2es don't drop :) Hydro PK'ers will still have fun and a shot at some loot, the run is still dangerous and a fun part of the game, and radu probably gets some rostos out of it. In this way too, the relative difficulty of hydro runs could be tweaked by adjusting the EMU of an s2e up or down just 1 or 2 EMU. Not enough to really change it's use a weapon, but would change the # of runs necessary fairly significantly.

 

In the current scenario, you need to go past again and again and again and again just to scrape together a few bars worth, either wearing no gear (the s2es you can carry are not worth anywhere close to a rosto, esp since you only drop half), and therefore getting killed by a simple harm, or wearing lots of gear to try to break through and thus giving up slots for s2es, making you have to run even more often, risking a rosto every time. It's just not possible to be remotely profitable when a good hydro defender is playing, because even if you can get through 90% or more, it's not really worth it.

 

Z

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I don't have much knowledge in bombing but I have been entering a pk map,

I was ready to restore but before the map even charged I died, I find it sad it doesn't use game mechanic to kill since you die before the map can even get loaded.
Just my 3 cents

 

Edit : 400+ hp

Edited by aravinth

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Really, what's the point of even trying? If stivy/uzb isn't bombing or harming you when making a run, radu is launching a c2 portals on a no drop day. If you check, the last no drop day had a portals invasion as well. No hydro runs unless you are dropping a brick for the privilege. I have no problem what so ever that the run is pk, it should be. Taking away the only game day people can do their quests is just a smack in the face, might as well as changed the #day without notice.

 

 

Opinions expressed are mine and mine alone. I stand by my words.

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Well, several people did it or tried it before the C2 invasion started. However agreed, it can be argued that it's not necessary to make it a portals invasion.

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Really, what's the point of even trying? If stivy/uzb isn't bombing or harming you when making a run, radu is launching a c2 portals on a no drop day. If you check, the last no drop day had a portals invasion as well. No hydro runs unless you are dropping a brick for the privilege. I have no problem what so ever that the run is pk, it should be. Taking away the only game day people can do their quests is just a smack in the face, might as well as changed the #day without notice.

 

 

Opinions expressed are mine and mine alone. I stand by my words.

I am not quite sure I understand this rant (besides for being off topic).

The no drops day was not meant for being able to get hydro for free, it was meant just for having fun in PK, invasions, trying out new mobs without risks, etc. Not sure where you got that idea...

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Hydro runs on no drop day are hardly for free, radu. But they are about the only day when you can manage a team together willing to go up there. The team usually consists out of fighters and harvesters. I do not know how many hundrets of kgc where burned on the last no drop day that i played and went to hydro run, but i know that in the end more gc where lost then gained through hydro runs.

 

Something needs to be done to hydro. And to bombing, my sugestion is, make multiple way to enter the fire maze, or the hydro cave.

I do not care if the ways still leads through pk areas and so, as long as the ways do not cross each others in a way that 1 person can watch the route and act in the speed uzb manages to.

 

As it is right now buying hydro bars for a nexus from npc is cheaper then running up there with swords, that you made yourself. as 1 rosto lost, or 2-3 runs where you die and loose 10-12 swords, are more then eating the profit up (not to say about the time needed.

 

But as this is not about hydro run, but really about bombing, To die before you have a chance to access the situation is a really bad idea, there should be something like a 2-3 seconds protection after entering any map, that has pk inside. and that should include bombs.

This would make it possible for people to defend themselfs against it, it makes the bombing entrance areas of pk maps useless, and will give the need for more skill.

Other then that, mines are high damage things.

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So the main problem seems to be the bombing on entrance : a high explosive on the entrance point, surrounded by manually triggered (by the attacker) RC mines.
That has the effect that the attacker can attack as soon as a character enters a PK map (and before the char entering even sees the map). But this is just what the 5s delay on map entry was supposed to prevent.

 

Would there be any way to stop RC mines fom triggering within such a 5s period? As a compensation, it might be possible that mines adjacent to an exploding mine get a chance to explode as well (sympathetic detonation), with the chances set in such a way that the average damage from hitting the center of a 3x3 square of high explosive mines would be around 400-450(?) for a lvl 100 engineer (raw damage before armor reduction).

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what about to grant a person as long immunity to *all* damage and treat the person as non-existant in terms of combat as long as s/he didn't move from their entry point?

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The reason for the grace period against attacks on map entry was to make sure the delay of the map loading was not advantaging the players already on the map (who can see you before you even see the map).

However, you don't see the mines in time anyway, so I see no reason to add a delay there: any delay for normal mines would allow you to walk over a mine, without detonating it. (Of course, that could be implemented as well, but then for all situations. That, however would be a different situation).

 

And, most explosives can go off when there's a strong explosion nearby. So it would not be unrealistic to have that happen to the mines placed next to the one that's been triggered. Implementing that would allow mines to be used to cause severe damage, possibly instakill, but without guaranteeing it. Given the cost of mines, reducing their effectiveness too much would only lead to another abandoned item in game (and from what I see, the only use for the small and medium mines is quests already). And if you get the time to just walk away from a mined entry point, that's about what's going to happen.

 

(Note: placed mines disappear after a while, so keeping an entry point mined for a longer period of time can get quite expensive, with high explosive mines at ~3k and RC mines at ~2k. So one set on an entry point, 1 HE and 8 RC mines, would be about 19k. Not something most players would spend if the target can just walk over it, and yes, you can hit <Home> as soon as you enter a map: delay on going from TG to WS was ~2s before I started moving after entry)

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Not seing the mines is a matter of levels and gear.

Simplest solution would be the mine going off as soon as you start to move.

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Doesn't matter in the particular case of entering a map, as there's no way you can see the square you land on before entering...

 

And, with having the mine go off "when you start to move" do you mean "by walking away"? Then TTR might be a nice solution

Edited by revi

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Really, what's the point of even trying? If stivy/uzb isn't bombing or harming you when making a run, radu is launching a c2 portals on a no drop day. If you check, the last no drop day had a portals invasion as well. No hydro runs unless you are dropping a brick for the privilege. I have no problem what so ever that the run is pk, it should be. Taking away the only game day people can do their quests is just a smack in the face, might as well as changed the #day without notice.

 

 

Opinions expressed are mine and mine alone. I stand by my words.

I am not quite sure I understand this rant (besides for being off topic).

The no drops day was not meant for being able to get hydro for free, it was meant just for having fun in PK, invasions, trying out new mobs without risks, etc. Not sure where you got that idea...

 

 

You're right, I am off topic. my bad, but I am not wrong.

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Engineering is fine as is. It is no easy or indeed cheap feat to bomb in pk, yes the results can be spectacular but it is a tricky skill to master as its about timing, stalking & luck.
Possibly changing the snare to have use and including a cooldown on remote mines. I think yhe problem is that it is too easy for the few pker whom sit at that small hydro pk map, maybe instead of a knee nerk reaction nerfing Eng items would be to alter the way hydro is attained, I agree 100% that it should be pk but it is entirely to easy for 1 pker to camp there and wait for toons to comein the only entrance

 

And please please remove the 'you have entered range of mine X' only the bomber should see that.

Edited by Rokk

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