Mage/healer class, reloaded

[Ilse]

I am against it

[_iNvoKeD]

sounds bad - give mufo/luci the perk and lets see who creys because he can hit through your MI and 2 hit you np.

[teotwawki]

Is this about pk or instances, or about the things we do everyday, like go hunting monsters and harvest and defend ourselves? If PK and A/D instance tanking is all there is to it, maybe I'm in the wrong place, I would very much like to think that there are other things and other paths...

 

Don't know about you, but there are a good many people that can kill me one hit, not two hits, and that doesn't bother me. This should be about everybody, not about mufo or luci or others that are very powerful now and probably always will be. Should be about giving new players more reasons to come and average-level players a reason to stay. If it's about who of the high level players gets hurt or helped most, I'm out of the discussion, don't have the required A/D for it probably...

Edited October 13, 2012 by teotwawki

[revi]

As there's talk about breaking through opponents MI in the original post, it looks like the idea shifted towards a more PK-oriented perk.

(Iirc, in the original version, bonuses against players were limited)

[RipTide]

I think the point of it is to give people something new, New goals, skills ect. If this game never evolved, then there wouldn't be any dailies, no invances or instances and a c2 that is only half finished.

[massimoC]

As already commented, there are a lot of interesting suggestions, and I didn't have the time yet to think about them all, so maybe I'll comment more later on. A few points seem clear to me, I hope no one will be bored

 

1) The idea of the game is for it to be class-less; IMHO we should try to keep the approach. But changing the way magic works is a way to keep the game interesting for all players.

 

2) We have now that top PKers are also top mages. This is due to the way magic is designed now and the huge amount of restore/shield spells they cast. Any change to the magic should take into account this and avoid that pro PKers automatically became pro mages without any price to pay.

It's not that they need to be penalized automatically: but there should be a tradeoff. Reducing the effective a/d is a way to do that.

I think of the magic "class" as a combined positive and negative perk... a "Merlin Blood" or "Arcane legacy" perk.

On the contrary, reducing the a/d xp received is a bit harsh IMHO: a mage will already have issues in fighting more rewarding mobs. Plus this penalty won't affect much top fighters, which already have a high level, and crush people trying to level up a mage from scratch. There is no such a limitation for fighters; they don't get less magic or summoning or archering xp when they want to apply themselves to those skills. Same holds for wearing armors: why a PK fighter can wear a mage robe, but a mage cannot wear a dragon armor (considering he gets from it less advantage due to the a/d level penalty?)

 

3) Before discussing the mage advantages, we should think if we want mages to be able to rival with fighters and rangers alone, or to just be a side figure that can help others but cannot accomplish much alone. I share entropy's view that a mage should be able to help AND rival, just like an archer can.

 

4) To balance a drastic penalty in a/d (e.g. a mage will never be able to melee with a dragon for a second if his effective a/d will be capped too low) some advantage has to be chosen that does not waste the gameplay.

Stronger spells are ok, or extended range spells, or new spells which are specific to the mage "perk" (more on that later). All the proposals I've seen have some merit: targeted spells for fire/cold/radiation damage, armor spells which are a stronger version of the shield, or an enhanced shield as automatic result of the mage "perk". Cheaper spells might be the trick: instead of having more mana per minute (which doesn't help at all in a tight spot) a mage could save 50%, or 30% of the mana required. This should parallel the mechanism of the conjurer cape (you need the mana, but you save some of it) and of the effect of physique on fighting (you get more HP and also reduce the damage taken).

 

5) For the mage to be able to fight another player or a mob in a not completely unbalanced way with an a/d penalty, the magic immunity / resistance mechanisms should be deeply affected and tuned.

A "perked" mage should have higher chances to resist MD/LD effects from a normal player, and more chances to break through the opponent magic defenses (still accounting for ratio/magic/armor bonuses).

This advantages do not always need to break even: an archer can kill a strong fighter from far, but will likely loose the fight if it's close. The mage too should be a figure that has a specific area of advantage: medium range fight, or collective fight, or fight when there are many obstacles around.

 

6) The remaining disadvantage would be the cost for being helpful to allies in a large fight.

If we go for the mage-helper figure, there is a new set of spells to devise in order to let mages help their faction the way archers do: stronger remote heal, remote restoration (a bit too strong?), local area spells for temporarily increasing perception/def/att/criticals/magic resistance of nearby allies (or guildies?), or for penalizing def/att/crit/magic of their opponents (either mobs OR other players). Another interesting special ability could be collective invisibility (the invisible party can still see each other - no idea if that can be implemented easily however) to arrange for ambushes to players and mobs. I always dreamed of a fireball spell...

 

7) The "new" spells should be specific, or very much easier for those with the mage "perk" than the other players.

Those spells should be thought for the mage, and impossible or quite ineffective for those who do not choose to get the perk. Making them impossible can be seen as a way to introduce classes, but giving those spells a 90% or more chance of failure, or a much higher mana cost for most characters resembles the way a summoner could try to summon a dragon, and fail 99% of the times if he doesn't have the required level. Example if a spell requires 200 mana to a normal player, and 50 to a perked mage, and you need to cast it a few times in a row... you have no class, but you need two or three players and a lot of SRS to do the work of a single mage.

 

I hope you all got there and found something interesting...

 

xam

[Amaara]

New spells using new items, such as an Enriched Earth Essie in order to make 50 Quake spells or Enriched Air Essie in order to make 50 Windstorm/Lightning spells.

[Infect]

In my opinion, this is a great idea. This doesnt really force you to take that class only. It is only a reduction of xp and more damage dealt/received. Mages will still be able to train but at a cost. I would definitely consider this perk.

[yethq]

New spells using new items, such as an Enriched Earth Essie in order to make 50 Quake spells or Enriched Air Essie in order to make 50 Windstorm/Lightning spells.

 

Love it! I am not sure radu intends to make a lot of new mage spells but it would be fun to call down lightning and earthquakes. However, I didnt enivisoin it when he proposed it and not sure it will happen, but nice idea there. I think mostly Mages will become more powerful with spells like harm, poison, etc and also more powerful healers, which would make them really helpful in invasions and in invances and instances. I can foresee, if radu brings this change, evetually having a mage will be as important as having a good tank. But both will be important.

 

I love the idea and I plan to level a mage char if it comes to fruition.

[teotwawki]

Great ideas, when can we have them tested?

[SolarStar]

The general feeling is that something is not right about the strength of the magic spells, namely: Remote Heal, Smite Summons, Heal Summons, Harm, Life Drain. I am for anything that will allow more magic in the gameplay, but I am not sure if perks are the right way. I will have to think about that a bit more.

 

So my idea to balance the strength of magic spells: 50% attribute dependent and 50% level dependant.

 

Example for Remote Heal:

Where 48 rationaltiy = 100% and 100 magic level = also 100%

I have 20 rationaltiy (42%) and 70 magic (70%)

when 100% attribute = 50 Health points and 100% level = also 50 Health points

then I would get 21 Health points for my attributes plus 35 for my level which is 56 Health points.

50*(20/48+70/100)=56

 

Or in another case 10 rationalty and 80 magic

50*(10/48+80/100)= 50

 

Please everyone try this for you own attributes and levels. Do you like this formula ?

[saxum]

One spell which might be introduced is an area affect spell for cases where you are surrounded or a mage could cast it to help reduce a creature's defense like an extra fighter would.

 

I am thinking something like a stinking cloud which would do poison damage to group centered at a spot and less damage in circles around target.

[Kabat]

i would love to see old good fireball in game, or a lightning bolt

[Nessa]

Pretty much all I could think of has already been suggested but I would add one more:

 

Would it be possible to make kills by magic count?

I just had my first Haidir PW quest the other day and what should have been a simple, quick job turned out to be a long mess because of the counter (or counters, not sure how that works). Half way into it I realized I had to switch to fighter mode and by the time the quest counter made the message pop up for 30, the creature counter said I had gotten 22 and I must have killed way over 40.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Nessa

[Quesar]

I like the idea of allowing for more use of magic in the game, especially with more spells and spell types such as area effects.

 

However, boosting harm damage to nearly 200 (some people can already harm over 100 with existing attribs, etc) sounds too overpowered. That's a 2 harm kill to most players, even wearing rdholam and mol. Boosting rem heal a lot would be very nice too.

 

@teotwawki - in order to think of everybody, you have to think of what it enables higher level people to do against everyone else, not just how it would effect them independently of higher level people

[anemone]

I like the idea. It would be nice if a mage could stun multiple mobs and be able to escape since he is going to be weak in close combat. Maybe this can apply only in multi maps or instances/invasions .

[Rabbitman]

I like the idea. It would be nice if a mage could stun multiple mobs and be able to escape since he is going to be weak in close combat. Maybe this can apply only in multi maps or instances/invasions .

 

Chanelled snare spell with mana usage over time and remove pinning XD. In example, say snare is case on an ice dragon. It is successfully cast and the mob is immobilized. The mage cannot move or be engaged in combat or he loses concentration and his hold on the creature is lost. He is losing 2 mana per second to upkeep the spell. With 150 max mana he can hold it for around 1 minute (initial spell did cost man's as well). Or, if this would be too OP, have channeling cost 1 acp per second.

 

Also: mana pots, srs, and emps should have either decreases cd or increased effects for mages. XD

[Nessa]

Just found out another thing that could use a touch up - invisibility spells should be equivalent in duration to invisibility potions.

[SolarStar]

Just found out another thing that could use a touch up - invisibility spells should be equivalent in duration to invisibility potions.

 

30 seconds:

http://el-wiki.net/Invisibility_Potion

http://el-wiki.net/Invisibility_Spell

 

60 seconds:

http://el-wiki.net/True_Sight_Potion

http://el-wiki.net/True_Sight_Spell

 

I think on the contrary the potions should have a higher value and last longer.

Edited November 13, 2012 by SolarStar

[saxum]

Just found out another thing that could use a touch up - invisibility spells should be equivalent in duration to invisibility potions.

 

30 seconds:

http://el-wiki.net/Invisibility_Potion

http://el-wiki.net/Invisibility_Spell

 

60 seconds:

http://el-wiki.net/True_Sight_Potion

http://el-wiki.net/True_Sight_Spell

 

I think on the contrary the potions should have a higher value and last longer.

 

Agree with SolarStar on this matter especially w/invisibility potions which take slots and have risk of poisoning.

[Orick]

This sounds awesome to me but I think it would be cool if you attached it to the magic god, kind of build up the advantage of having the god... Make it so you have to have full god lvl then make the perk available as a quest under the god... Other cool perks could be done the same way

 

Just thought of this after posting that, but that might make it so you can't sell the removals... But to fix that you can make it so you can't disown the gods you have by getting godless perk but rather you have to #reset or remove the perk by stone before being able to disown your god or get the godless perk

Edited November 13, 2012 by Orick

[bob88]

Having a potion be better then a spell is just another way to weaken the mage and mage class. If you want the potion to be better then the chance of poisoning should be raised to at least 50%, that way the higher benefit comes with a greater chance of poison. TS potion should come with the poison risk as well.

[Orick]

I like the idea. It would be nice if a mage could stun multiple mobs and be able to escape since he is going to be weak in close combat. Maybe this can apply only in multi maps or instances/invasions .

 

Chanelled snare spell with mana usage over time and remove pinning XD. In example, say snare is case on an ice dragon. It is successfully cast and the mob is immobilized. The mage cannot move or be engaged in combat or he loses concentration and his hold on the creature is lost. He is losing 2 mana per second to upkeep the spell. With 150 max mana he can hold it for around 1 minute (initial spell did cost man's as well). Or, if this would be too OP, have channeling cost 1 acp per second.

 

Also: mana pots, srs, and emps should have either decreases cd or increased effects for mages. XD

 

Good idea but that would make tanking bosses like bula and castys and such to easy, so I would pick a few creatures that it can't work on

Edited November 13, 2012 by Orick

[Rabbitman]

I like the idea. It would be nice if a mage could stun multiple mobs and be able to escape since he is going to be weak in close combat. Maybe this can apply only in multi maps or instances/invasions .

 

Chanelled snare spell with mana usage over time and remove pinning XD. In example, say snare is case on an ice dragon. It is successfully cast and the mob is immobilized. The mage cannot move or be engaged in combat or he loses concentration and his hold on the creature is lost. He is losing 2 mana per second to upkeep the spell. With 150 max mana he can hold it for around 1 minute (initial spell did cost man's as well). Or, if this would be too OP, have channeling cost 1 acp per second.

 

Also: mana pots, srs, and emps should have either decreases cd or increased effects for mages. XD

 

Good idea but that would make tanking bosses like bula and castys and such to easy, so I would pick a few creatures that it can't work on

 

Make it a function of your rationality/magic level/mob magic resistance . Make some mobs like mb and casty stain mana crazy fast.

[bob88]

I like the idea of have a channelled snare spell but there has to be a limit of how long the creature held in place, say a total of 1-2 minutes. A lot of damage can be done in those 2 minutes. Mana usuage and acp usuage should be used while spell is active but there are a lot of ppl high high amounts of mana and acp so that is why I think a limit should be in place. I have a decent amount of both and if acp was used at 1 per sec then I could hold the creature for well over the 2 minute limit I suggest.

Edited November 13, 2012 by bob88