Stuff that should be addressed.

[korrode]

In recent times i've tried to play the game in whatever way i found fun and tone back the analysing of existing and new game mechanics/features... but with this latest server update combined with other recent changes, I can't help but point out what to me are obvious flaws in game design that will negatively impact the game long-term.

 

All the great swords with a chance of a rare version have now that chance increased directly proportional to your skill, if your skill is higher than the level required to make them.

What happened to the new versions of the swords to be made by high level manufactures that had slightly better dmg/acc/def/etc. bonuses? That was a much better solution than increasing chances of those ridiculous orange spam weps.

As i've said for years, the orange spam swords make luck have too higher impact on the outcome of competitive PvP combat.

Come on Radu I know the slightly stronger versions of the swords solution would have been a bit more coding but it's a way better solution. It'd have even helped to address the fact dragon armors rendered great swords basically pointless in PK when they were introduced... it was 2 birds w/ 1 stone!

 

Increased the OA limit to level 179, and the OA exp will go up until 2.14B Eventually I might increase the limit to 4B exp, but that requires a client update.

...

I thought 178 was the intended cap?

Do you really think the combat-strength character development cycle needs to be even longer than the insane length it already is?

I'd finally accepted what you said about the char development cycle being ~10 years for any kind of normal player (and chose to continue playing knowing i still had a long way to go), and now you're talking about almost doubling the maximum exp that it's possible to gain?

Why? Just cap it imo.

 

RE: Recent breaks system changes

When it comes to Yeti+ training, the end result of the new system is that once again you've gone and rewarded that niche, puny percentage of players who are nuts enough to spend spastic amounts of time and/or money on the game and get 48 toughness, while "normal" players on "normal" chars get raped.

You told me you felt you had to reward the people who invested in toughness, well I can tell you that under the old breaks system anything over 36 toughness meant 0 breaks on Yeti/Trice/LOrc, and those people who spent thousands of dollars or millions upon millions of gc (notice how unrealistic doing this is for most people) didn't do it, or certainly not primarily, for anything related to breaks. They are rewarded for their expenditure on vitality elsewhere and your apparent expectation that joe-average can build their toughness high enough to get breaks low enough at high level training is unrealistic.

Forget using toughness (effectively) as a modifier and just set the break chances to whatever's right for each item to keep things viable and be done with it. Then everyone would have the same chance to break X item when they get hit and it'd be more fair anyways.

 

RE: The long standing ~120 to ~140 a/d exp hole

I've mentioned this in ch6 a bunch of times hoping you'd see there's a clear flaw with exp gain during ~120 to ~140 a/d.

 

With the increasing height of the line representing exp gain on a single spawn, and with consideration that LOrc's don't drop well so they need a bit of a spike, something like this would look reasonable, logical, non-frustrating:

 

...but for reasons i cannot fathom, instead we have something along the lines of this:

 

Why??

 

The FCW/MCW/Trice respawn time needs decreasing (DCW is ok because it's sort of the 'attack god alternative' to feros, but the rest needs adjusting)... or introduce some kind of 'Legionnaire Goblin' or some such, whatever, but there's no reason not to fix this obvious flaw.

 

-----------

 

Anyways, many people (probably radu too) will just view this as bitching, but i believe addressing all this will have a positive impact on the game.

 

@Radu

I hope you'll consider addressing some of this stuff and not just view it all as bitching and purposely not do any of it to spite me. I'm approaching 5 years as an EL'er now, I levelled my char, solo, from scratch, to near 140 a/d... I've coached people who are now top 20 a/d, I've had a good amount of PK experience... consider that perhaps I have some insight on these topics.

 

 

EDIT:

Oh, and to the people who are going to PM me saying how much they agree with me, as many often do, but don't have the resolve to post their support on the forums; post it or don't bother

Edited January 15, 2011 by Korrode

[Miiks]

Actually imo the special swords -thingy is pretty good update. Maybe the special sword prices will decrease and also lower lvl people have chance to buy them. Atm just strongest chars in game, that are already "op", are using them.

 

Anyway aren't halberd, scythe etc. two handed weps good enough for killing dragon armored players? I don't really see reason to add better swords in game. If something has to be added, I'd like to see more two handed weapons, maybe two handed swords. BUT I have to say I haven't PKed much in years so my knowledge about nowadays PK is flawed.

 

About the new cap: There's 2 sides on the coin. Secondly I don't like the way how the endgame is artificially dilated. It's pain to grind your char to lvl 178 in any skill, including oa. Especially since trainable mobs end up in lorcs. If people really have to grind even more, at least higher lvl trainable mobs should be added and maybe some additions should be made in mixing skills too.

 

But secondly IF you can actually get decent exp after lvl 178, it's just good thing you can get more PPs by training instead of buying dozens of PPs. Anyway what about stopping the exp increase after lvl 178? Imo 1,965,437,601 exp is already hard enough to grind so why make it harder and still add the extra 5 % after every new lvl?

 

Lastly, I completely agree with Korrode at "120-140 hole". There's few solutions I'd like to suggest, mostly same that korrode suggested:

1) More douple fcw and maybe mcw spawns. Even they are pretty bad exp single, douple spawns would make them trainable.

2) Make single chimmies trainable.

3) New trainable monster after feroses.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Miiks

[korrode]

Actually imo the special swords -thingy is pretty good update. Maybe the special sword prices will decrease and also lower lvl people have chance to buy them. Atm just strongest chars in game, that are already "op", are using them.

 

Anyway aren't halberd, scythe etc. two handed weps good enough for killing dragon armored players? I don't really see reason to add better swords in game.

Guess it depends on if you think 4x 130-140 a/d'ers should be able to best one of these 150a/d-TINF-5attr@48 people.

Personally, I think a combined att+def of over well over 1000 should beat a combined att+def of ~300, i think for it not to is lolinsane.

 

The 4x 130's can't hit the 150'er with scythe/halberd (cept crit-hit), but with cutty's and JS's they have more of a chance... but ofc, the dragon armor makes the cuttys/JS's do jack all damage. Not to mention that the 130's using 2 handed weapons, and thus no shield, means that not only does the 150'er not get hit, but s/he can even easily wipe away the multiple foes with such low accuracy high damage weapons as halberd's and scythe's.

 

The Great Swords offer a lovely accuracy VS damage selection that make strategy and tactics worth something... but it all went out the window for PK when drag armor came in.

 

Point is; accessible, affordable great swords with a bit better stats, especially a bit more damage, would help balance PK on at least 2 fronts; the imbalance of pro's winning when being mass ganged and increasing the value of tactics in competitive 1vs1 fights, instead of the riches+luckfest we have atm.

[Entropy]

What happened to the new versions of the swords to be made by high level manufactures that had slightly better dmg/acc/def/etc. bonuses? That was a much better solution than increasing chances of those ridiculous orange spam weps.

 

We discussed in game, and most players preferred the current implementation. Except for you, I didn't hear anyone not liking it.

 

As i've said for years, the orange spam swords make luck have too higher impact on the outcome of competitive PvP combat.

This change still makes them very rare.

 

Come on Radu I know the slightly stronger versions of the swords solution would have been a bit more coding but it's a way better solution. It'd have even helped to address the fact dragon armors rendered great swords basically pointless in PK when they were introduced... it was 2 birds w/ 1 stone!

Same amount of coding.

 

I thought 178 was the intended cap?

Actually, the current system allows up to 179, just didn't realize it before. Nevertheless, even if the limit is increased to 4b, gaining levels over 179 is so hard that it's not much different than buying nexuses.

 

 

RE: Recent breaks system changes

....

 

The current system allows for armors and weapons to break. The old one gave you virtual immunity if your stats were too high. And BTW, there are LESS items breaking with the new system than with the old one.

 

RE: The long standing ~120 to ~140 a/d exp hole

...

 

Not everything has to be uniform.

 

@Radu

I hope you'll consider addressing some of this stuff and not just view it all as bitching and purposely not do any of it to spite me. I'm approaching 5 years as an EL'er now, I levelled my char, solo, from scratch, to near 140 a/d... I've coached people who are now top 20 a/d, I've had a good amount of PK experience... consider that perhaps I have some insight on these topics.

As you might have realized, I agreed with some of your suggestions in the past and even implemented them. But the issues you mention here, I don't think they have much merit. And a lot of people will disagree with you on those topics.

 

Oh, and to the people who are going to PM me saying how much they agree with me, as many often do, but don't have the resolve to post their support on the forums; post it or don't bother

 

Pr0 idea. But also those who disagree please post here.

 

[edit]Deleted some blank "you have my support" posts. We are not in kindergarten here. If you agree with him, say on what points you agree, and why.

[violater]

OH btw u have my support for training thingy, but for the pk thingy no , this char has more than 60 hydo pps bought and i dont want to see it getting hit by a 130 or 140 a/d er, get ur lvl and come hit me <3

[bigkav]

RE: The long standing ~120 to ~140 a/d exp hole

I've mentioned this in ch6 a bunch of times hoping you'd see there's a clear flaw with exp gain during ~120 to ~140 a/d.

 

With the increasing height of the line representing exp gain on a single spawn, and with consideration that LOrc's don't drop well so they need a bit of a spike, something like this would look reasonable, logical, non-frustrating:

I fully agree. It makes no sense whatsoever that you can go from earning 300k+ an hour single spawn at fluff & feros to 200-250k single fcw/mcw. I don't agree with being "penalised" via exp loss because you gain levels and move up to higher level mobs.

You've told me many times you didn't want all mobs ingame to be trainable but if that's the case, why not do what you did for 140s a/d's and make a legionnaire goblin for those in the 120-140 rut.

Guess it depends on if you think 4x 130-140 a/d'ers should be able to best one of these 150a/d-TINF-5attr@48 people.

Personally' date=' I think a combined att+def of over well over 1000 should beat a combined att+def of ~300, i think for it not to is lolinsane.

 

The 4x 130's can't hit the 150'er with scythe/halberd (cept crit-hit), but with cutty's and JS's they have more of a chance... but ofc, the dragon armor makes the cuttys/JS's do jack all damage. Not to mention that the 130's using 2 handed weapons, and thus no shield, means that not only does the 150'er not get hit, but s/he can even easily wipe away the multiple foes with such low accuracy high damage weapons as halberd's and scythe's.

 

The Great Swords offer a lovely accuracy VS damage selection that make strategy and tactics worth something... but it all went out the window for PK when drag armor came in.

 

Point is; accessible, affordable great swords with a bit better stats, especially a bit more damage, would help balance PK on at least 2 fronts; the imbalance of pro's winning when being mass ganged and increasing the value of tactics in competitive 1vs1 fights, instead of the riches+luckfest we have atm. [/quote']

Again I agree. Thermal Serpent sword, once the best sword ingame is rendered useless in PK due to dragon armor.. but it's not just that, as Korrode here is saying anyone with 20 toughness & dragon armor is going to relatively take 1-15(20-25 if you have os+star med & 48 might) damage to them with great swords.. and on top of that, those ridiculous mage robe skirts, 60 mana, 2-3 armor, +2 heat & cold protection AND cotu perk.. that's pretty much equivalent to an osomn w/+20 radiation damage.

On the topic of 160s a/d vs multiple 140s or 140s vs multiple 120s, I agree they should have no trouble with 1 or even 2 combatant(s) with lower stats than them, but 4+ should at least have half a fighting chance whereas currently they have no chance at all.

 

Pr0 idea. But also those who disagree please post here.

A lot of the time, people who disagree with you won't mention it because they are scared of being banned etc, I've known people to agree with you in channel & then mention to me in a PM that they didn't.

[Dilly]

I'll be a good girl and not get into the training/pvp/pve bits.

 

All the great swords with a chance of a rare version have now that chance increased directly proportional to your skill, if your skill is higher than the level required to make them.

What happened to the new versions of the swords to be made by high level manufactures that had slightly better dmg/acc/def/etc. bonuses? That was a much better solution than increasing chances of those ridiculous orange spam weps.

As i've said for years, the orange spam swords make luck have too higher impact on the outcome of competitive PvP combat.

Come on Radu I know the slightly stronger versions of the swords solution would have been a bit more coding but it's a way better solution. It'd have even helped to address the fact dragon armors rendered great swords basically pointless in PK when they were introduced... it was 2 birds w/ 1 stone!

 

From a combat oriented point of view Korr, you might have a point. For a manuer however it will provide some sort of neverending incentive, kind of similar to what fighters have always had. Apart from a/d (and harvesting kinda if you're into dungdigging), all of the other skills sort of stop giving new challenges very early on (check the highest recommended level items for each 'peacefull skill', nuff said). There have been more epic combat related changes affecting all others skills and you seemed quite content about those :>

 

At least, with this change, even if ever so slightly, we know that our chance to make a zomfgOP weapon that might fund a few levels in any of our other skills, is getting a little bit better with each level we get. Beats knowing only that you will need to spend hours muling leather and thread from npc to sto and then from sto to school.. again....

Edited January 15, 2011 by Dilly

[hussam]

...but for reasons i cannot fathom, instead we have something along the lines of this:

I totally agree that this definitely needs to be fixed. You can break the 320k per hour on single fluffy at mid 90s a/d but you get a max of 240k an hour on dchim when you reach the appropriate a/d level and build. That doesn't seem very fair.

[korrode]

We discussed in game, and most players preferred the current implementation. Except for you, I didn't hear anyone not liking it.

There must've been chat in channel 6 i missed, because mostly people seemed to like the 'better version' idea when you talked about it originally.

[09:54:22] [radu @ 6]: you get: 15-35 damage' date=' +6 defense, +6 accuracy, +5 critical to hit, +5 critical to damage.

[09:54:30] [Wloczykij @ 6]: Nice idea radu, thx.

[09:54:34] [OverKill @ 6]: pr0 where i buy? :>

[09:54:44] [Entreri @ 6]: dont like it.

[09:54:49] [MARVEL @ 6]: price will go up?

[09:54:50] [l33t @ 6]: wouldn't everyone ask the highest manufer to mix em for them?

[09:54:51] [Entreri @ 6]: no offense. would just be more scams.

[09:54:53] [radu @ 6]: then people will have an inentive to make them and buy from players

[09:54:57] [usl @ 6]: same break rate? (still burnd by the 2 broken radio rapiers)

[09:54:58] [Entreri @ 6]: and diff prices. would cause caos

[09:55:07] [radu @ 6]: same break rate

[09:55:09] [ME_OW @ 6]: sounds good to me radu

[09:55:11] [FatboyJaxx @ 6]: only the highest manuers would be able to sell the swords

[09:55:15] [radu @ 6]: after repair, you'd get the stock version

[09:55:15] [WolfWitch @ 6]: I like that idea - gives people more of a goal to level manu

[09:55:27] [dre @ 6]: and all people ask holar to mix then

[09:55:28] [Caliphear @ 6]: ent ppl have to pay attention when they trade and they wont get scammed

[09:55:29] [Kidberg @ 6]: I do see FatboyJaxx's point

[09:55:30] [kiok @ 6]: +1 ent

[09:55:32] [usl @ 6]: *moves to kiss radu -- then, thinking better of it, stops disgusted*

[09:55:33] [Greypal @ 6]: how can some1 distinguish them on trade?

[09:55:34] [MARVEL @ 6]: what about ings/price radu?

[09:55:44] [cajun_belle @ 6]: hit the eye icon on it?

[09:55:46] [WolfWitch @ 6]: easy there usl

[09:55:47] [Caliphear @ 6]: lol usl

[09:55:49] [Kaddy @ 6]: lower manu'ers will be screwed.

[09:55:49] [radu @ 6]: well, right now you can sell someone a broken sword, so you need to pay atention when trading

[09:55:56] [Adhikari @ 6]: I like the idea

[09:56:08] [radu @ 6]: kaddy, lower manuers won't be more screwed than they are now

[09:56:19] [usl @ 6]: the label would probably be changed, like "not-chinese eagle wing"

[09:56:25] [radu @ 6]: yes usl

[09:56:27] [Caliphear @ 6]: lmao

[09:56:31] [radu @ 6]: custom made eagle wing

[09:56:35] [Kaddy @ 6]: I'm not a manu'er, and I'm not complaining, just wanted to tell the fact.

[09:56:36] [radu @ 6]: or hand made, etc

[09:56:37] [Tvinn @ 6]: unique weps =)

[09:56:40] [Learner @ 6]: Made in France

[09:56:44] [MuLak @ 6]: skunk dead in lakeside

[09:56:47] [radu @ 6]: but won't be unique weapons

[09:56:51] [WolfWitch @ 6]: can you add a tag with the name of who made it? Just for fame and Glory of course

[09:57:01] [radu @ 6]: no, we can't have unique weapons

[09:57:08] [Tvinn @ 6]: *stats..

[09:57:08] [ME_OW @ 6]: nah made in Canada learner

[09:57:10] [usl @ 6]: no Wolfie, there is the usual technical problem with that. But you can have a class of weps

[09:57:17] [Learner @ 6]: the server is in France!

[09:57:22] [KriXuS @ 6]: Wolfy*

[09:57:24] [ME_OW @ 6]: lol

[09:57:30] [FatboyJaxx @ 6]: if you're 30 lvls higher for example you get an even better one?

[09:57:40] [radu @ 6]: no, just one treshold

[09:57:40] [WolfWitch @ 6]: lol you tell him Krix

[09:57:41] [aTeh @ 3]: selling Augmented Leather sets 280gc ea

[09:57:46] [KriXuS @ 6]: :>

[09:57:47] [radu @ 6]: or else we end up with too many items

[09:57:50] [FatboyJaxx @ 6]: ah that would be fine then

 

As can be seen, there were a couple of people who disagreed or needed a question answered first, but the reception seemed pretty good.

 

 

 

This change still makes them very rare.

Still less rare than before... and if they're still quite rare it won't help the pricing issue.

I doubt manufacturers will lower prices solely on the premise that their chance to make rare is slightly increased.

What if they get unlucky and happen to never or very rarely make them?

Luck is unreliable. People don't trust it and people hate when it goes against them. The negative impact of weighting luck so heavily throughout the game, as you do, doesn't work well, imo.

 

I hear of people getting 10+ NMT drops in a year... I've had 2 ever. If I was a manufacturer I wouldn't lower my great sword price to under ingreds cost under the premise that so long as my luck goes well it won't be a loss over time.

 

Actually, the current system allows up to 179, just didn't realize it before. Nevertheless, even if the limit is increased to 4b, gaining levels over 179 is so hard that it's not much different than buying nexuses.

But it still adds to the cycle, still makes a new player's dream of getting to the top more unattainable, still keeps people on those limited monster spawns, etc.

 

Very few single people will have the will to grind so high, but so long as char trading continues chars will get grinded up there.

 

The current system allows for armors and weapons to break. The old one gave you virtual immunity if your stats were too high. And BTW, there are LESS items breaking with the new system than with the old one.

Yes but we need to look at where the system has changed, even if the overall amount of breaks is less.

The high level monsters are much better trained in expensive gear, and non-charbuying/non-heaps-pp-buying people on high monsters are the people who've been hit with more breaks by the change.

 

I have a solution to propose that will address both this and the next point. I'll add it below.

 

RE: The long standing ~120 to ~140 a/d exp hole...

Not everything has to be uniform.

Sure, I can agree that not everything in the game needs to be uniform... but this particular system is something that it would really be better if it was uniform.

If the LOrcs didn't exist/didn't give the exp they do, I would have no complaints at all.

People get to that ~120 a/d mark and their levelling slows down a lot, to get a feeling of achievement takes a lot of time... this wouldn't be so bad if that a/d ranking was getting better, but to compound the frustration, the higher level players that some trainers have a goal to catch aren't slowing down a relatively equivalent amount, they in fact (relatively) speed up. Their ranks still get better at a rate not to different than the 120-140'ers... can't you see how it's disheartening for 120-140'ers?

I'd need to double check the math but levelling from 140 to 150 a/d on a single LOrc spawn probably isn't too different than levelling from 130 to 140 a/d on single MCW/Trice spawns!

 

...ok I just went and checked the math:

 

As an average for exp p/h between MCW and Trice (as both get used by 130-140 a/d'ers) i've used 280k exp p/h as the basis.

For 140-150 a/d on LOrcs i've used 420k exp p/h as the basis, and this is being generous, considering that via an expensive method that I advised SenZon to try a long time back he was able to achieve almost 500k exp p/h on a single spawn at over 150 a/d.

 

(L140-L130)/280k = 424.42

(L150-L140)/420k = 460.89

 

Look how small the difference in training hours is, it's less than 10%.

Levelling gets gradually slowler by a fairly consistent amount everywhere else in the game, why is this area 'fine to not be uniform'?

 

 

On to my combo-solution suggestion for both this and the armor breaks issue for 'normal' MCW/trice/yeti trainers:

 

I mentioned earlier about the possibility of something like a Legionnaire Goblin. The drops could be low like LOrc but have the damage they inflict low enough so that people with ~30 or maybe low 30's toughness in good armor can absorb all non-crit damage on most hits. Best I can explain the exact kind of creature I mean is using other mobs as basis for parts of it's stats:

 

Same dex/react as DCW

Same armor/toughness/might/damage as FCW

Same a/d as Yeti (125 a/d)

400health

Same crit rates and respawn as LOrc

gc drop i guess a little less than LOrc >.>

 

A mob like this addresses the breaks prob for basically the only people the new breaks system really hurts and fixes the 120-140 a/d exp hole.

 

As you might have realized, I agreed with some of your suggestions in the past and even implemented them. But the issues you mention here, I don't think they have much merit. And a lot of people will disagree with you on those topics.

Some of the topics perhaps, but I think you'll be extremely hard pressed to find 120-140 a/d'ers who disagree with me about the exp hole being very annoying and 120-150's a/d'ers, who aren't very high toughness, who'll disagree about the breaks on mcw/yeti/trice/lorc.

 

@Vio

Thanks for the lip service support on the exp hole. In regards to you opposition to the PK stuff, you're a great example of the kind of char that's unrealistic for joe-average to achieve.

 

What was the price tag on your char when you bought it Vio?

How many people levelled it to it's a/d?

Was insane amounts of time and/or money spent on it by multiple people getting all those pp's?

Hm?

 

Of course you don't like my suggestions about PK, you're in that niche group, that tiny percent of people who'll go spend insane amounts of time and/or money on an EL char.

 

 

 

@Dilly

A fair point Dills, but the 'slightly stronger versions' idea could still provide incentive in the fashion you suggest if implemented right.

At the recommended level to make a great sword you could have a 5% chance to make the slightly stronger one and the percentage could get gradually better as your level goes up.

Quickly the chance to make the slightly better one would be much higher than the chance to make the orange spam one and then you'd more regularly, more reliably have an item that you could sell for profit.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Korrode

[korrode]

@hussam

No comments about the break system?

[Aislinn]

My comment here is that @6 is not "all of the players" or "most of the players" or "the only players who care or have a clue". Even of the ones who are in there, only a vocal minority tend to speak up.

I do not think it should be used as the barometer of what EL wants or doesn't want.

It seems to me that there could and should be a better way or place for informational announcements or opinion getting.

 

Ok I have another comment. I do not believe that game design should be changed or not changed based on unnatural and artificially leveled characters, and by that I mean characters that have been passed around through buying|selling or sharing. Nor do I think these people's opinions on issues affecting high level characters should be considered, UNLESS they have already leveled their own character alone to levels appropriate for any given discussion.

 

Ok one more comment, as long as we're all being controversial, if I was radu, which I am not and nor am I any expert in combat, I would be listening to asgnny, korrode, usl, wizzy, mufossa, luciferX, probably a few others too I can't think of first thing before coffee, no intent to offend here. If anybody knows first hand, it's this bunch.

[violater]

@Vio

Thanks for the lip service support on the exp hole. In regards to you opposition to the PK stuff, you're a great example of the kind of char that's unrealistic for joe-average to achieve.

 

What was the price tag on your char when you bought it Vio?

How many people levelled it to it's a/d?

Was insane amounts of time and/or money spent on it by multiple people getting all those pp's?

Hm?

 

Of course you don't like my suggestions about PK, you're in that niche group, that tiny percent of people who'll go spend insane amounts of time and/or money on an EL char

 

Hi korrode

 

1. I never found training hard, i moved to yetis when i was 125 /128 a/d and used to make 350k-400k/hr easy ( although my supplies lasted for 30-45 mins but the drops payed much more for it).

2. Getting lvls is never hard , only hard thing is the hydro pp and if after getting all the attributes maxed, if a 130-140 a/der hits me , i think there will be no use of getting hydro pps anymore.

3. Oh i have spend long hours on el training my own lvled char to 140 a/d ( which took like 18 months from scratch ) and u know me better.

4. the char i use atm its not that hard to get , if you proceed in the right way ( secrets cant be revealed here)

 

Ty

[hussam]

@hussam

No comments about the break system?

I haven't really trained since around christmas other than part of sun tzu. I probably should have commented a while ago in the Giove thread. But my opinion is still the same. EL is a large community. Many people are all rounders and have invested in a number of nexus and cannot afford negative perks or at least have to keep negative perks down to a minimal. This makes it impossible to invest too many pickpoints in attributes. All-rounders may still like to train too. Penalizing one group of people at the expense of another group makes us gradually lose the no-class system. Making the required toughness to keep breakages low on yeti and above too high is not fair to most EL players because considering the size of the EL community, the people who have 50+ bought pickpoints are minimal. I don't think the old system was not fair to people with 48 toughness because 48 toughness already makes training cheaper by making them need to restore less often.

I think the main factor for deciding breakage should be how often you get hit and not how much damage you absorb. If the chance to break a piece of armor is 1/10k, then the probability should always be 1/10k. You can still minimize breakage by having high defense/reaction and not ever getting hit so the end result is still fair to everyone. It also eliminates the advantage people can have by pvping with 48 toughness and dragon armor and not getting damage or breaking anything. In real life, armor's chance to break depends on how hard (and how often) it gets hit and how strong the material it is made of and not by the toughness of the person wearing it.

Wiki link on material fatigue and breakage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_(material)

Edited January 15, 2011 by hussam

[korrode]

Hi korrode

 

1. I never found training hard, i moved to yetis when i was 125 /128 a/d and used to make 350k-400k/hr easy ( although my supplies lasted for 30-45 mins but the drops payed much more for it).

The one and only full double yeti spawn in the game isn't representative of normal training options.

 

 

2. Getting lvls is never hard

...

3. Oh i have spend long hours on el training my own lvled char to 140 a/d ( which took like 18 months from scratch ) and u know me better.

ofc, I'm the one who advised you on your entire char build and training regiment since you were like 60 a/d.

 

Why exactly, if "getting levels is never hard", did you buy a char anyway?

 

 

only hard thing is the hydro pp and if after getting all the attributes maxed

Ah, I guess that answers my previous question, and helps to re-enforce my point that joe-average being expected to buy hydro pp's is unrealistic. I mean, if you, Mr pro trainer, Mr. knows the secrets, still think it's hard and still had to buy a char, then what hope do the rest of us have.

 

if a 130-140 a/der hits me , i think there will be no use of getting hydro pps anymore.

Do note i'm talking about them being able to hit you for still relatively low damage with a cutlass, in any 1vs1 fight, or even 2 or 3 vs 1, you'll still win np. It's not like i'm suggesting a 130-140 a/d'er should be able to easily halberd you to death...

 

4. the char i use atm its not that hard to get , if you proceed in the right way ( secrets cant be revealed here)

What? finding a naive buyer to overpay for your old char and then get a nice deal on a better char making the effective total expenditure low?

It's a nice little system, you're not the first to do it... but in the end it doesn't justify anything.

 

edit: very slight re-wording

Edited January 16, 2011 by Korrode

[Wizzy]

What happened to the new versions of the swords to be made by high level manufactures that had slightly better dmg/acc/def/etc. bonuses? That was a much better solution than increasing chances of those ridiculous orange spam weps.

 

We discussed in game, and most players preferred the current implementation. Except for you, I didn't hear anyone not liking it.

 

As i've said for years, the orange spam swords make luck have too higher impact on the outcome of competitive PvP combat.

This change still makes them very rare.

 

Come on Radu I know the slightly stronger versions of the swords solution would have been a bit more coding but it's a way better solution. It'd have even helped to address the fact dragon armors rendered great swords basically pointless in PK when they were introduced... it was 2 birds w/ 1 stone!

Same amount of coding.

 

I thought 178 was the intended cap?

Actually, the current system allows up to 179, just didn't realize it before. Nevertheless, even if the limit is increased to 4b, gaining levels over 179 is so hard that it's not much different than buying nexuses.

 

 

RE: Recent breaks system changes

....

 

The current system allows for armors and weapons to break. The old one gave you virtual immunity if your stats were too high. And BTW, there are LESS items breaking with the new system than with the old one.

 

RE: The long standing ~120 to ~140 a/d exp hole

...

 

Not everything has to be uniform.

 

@Radu

I hope you'll consider addressing some of this stuff and not just view it all as bitching and purposely not do any of it to spite me. I'm approaching 5 years as an EL'er now, I levelled my char, solo, from scratch, to near 140 a/d... I've coached people who are now top 20 a/d, I've had a good amount of PK experience... consider that perhaps I have some insight on these topics.

As you might have realized, I agreed with some of your suggestions in the past and even implemented them. But the issues you mention here, I don't think they have much merit. And a lot of people will disagree with you on those topics.

 

Oh, and to the people who are going to PM me saying how much they agree with me, as many often do, but don't have the resolve to post their support on the forums; post it or don't bother

 

Pr0 idea. But also those who disagree please post here.

 

[edit]Deleted some blank "you have my support" posts. We are not in kindergarten here. If you agree with him, say on what points you agree, and why.

 

I am sorry I have never figured out how to do fancy quotes. But I will try to keep my thoughts organized.

 

1) I am not against the idea of a higher level manu'er having a better chance to produce an orange spamy weapon. When the idea to make a slightly better version of the great swords was discussed on channel 6 I saw the discussion of addressing the issue of the cost to produce a great sword vrs npc prices for the swords. This may have some impact in the beginning for the top rich manuers that could afford to hoard efe, serp stones, bindings etc. But I do not think in the long term it will address the npc problem. There are a number of ways that where suggested, such as increaseing npc price, etc.

 

However, if for some reason the rate of special swords does increase, I think there are other issues that need to be addressed. Warlock capes have pretty much become worthless in game. They are rarely used in pk. I would suggest increasing the magic resistance of the warlock from +8 to a much higher number as to offer much more protection against orange spam weps and evil mages like myself that can harm 150+ points. I think this would create a more balanced pk atmosphere.

 

EDIT: I just remembered that Radu said in update thread that the wolf swords will now give more xp when making them. This may help. I no longer have the nexus to mix one, so I do not know what the new xp is.

 

 

2)Dragon armors are a little too overpowered, I have heard many people say this, and it may in fact be true. Some time ago I did suggest adjusting the red/black/ice armors with +/- heat/cold/radiation protection, and some small adjustments to shop sold glowing serps so that a serp of ice or of magic might have certain advantages over certain dragon armors. I do think peoples biggest complaint about the armors, is that the weapons just dont cause as much damage. Though not a huge issue to me, I do think it would increase shop sales of ice/magic/fire serps. Which would be a win win for all.

 

3)The level cap to me doesnt matter so much, after level 155 overall it is probably faster to earn the gc's in game to buy a nexus/removal then to hit the next level. There will only ever be a select few people that will grind themselves from level 0 to 178, so 179 or 200 really doesnt matter so much to me. I sort of like the idea of a game that never ends.

 

4) The 120-140 level plateau. Yes,I do agree things do not have to be uniform. However. It is a bit difficult to stay motivated to train levels When you hit the 120's. Other then 2 mountain chim spawns, all forest chims are in outside maps, Single spawns, except one spawn in rot which could be considered a 2X spawn,if you are fast and a never need to pee, or eat. or awnser the phone. etc. Now, I know the purpose of the game is not to just sit in one place, eat dinner, troll forums and train your char, I get this. However, to get to any level over 80, every player has done their fair share of 1/2 playing 1/2 doing something in real life. Chims tend to run around maps, so when real life takes your attention, you often end up losing your spawn. It is annoying to say the least. Even the best yeti spawn and LO spawns in game are inside, and I think it would be nice to have few forest chim and desert chim spawns inside a smaller map to make trainning a little less painfull.

 

5) I can not comment too much on the current break system, compared to the old. As I do not train like most people. I rarely break anything, as I tend to stay on eaiser mobs as fighting to me is a main source of gc's, not how much xp/hour I can get. Though Radu says there are less breakages, I have heard that a lot of people in that 120-145 range have stopped trying to serp yetis and I see more people on desert chim spawns and feros. Perhaps things are breaking less, because less people are risking trainning higher monsters? I of course am not certain of this. It is just a thought I had. I do not have the statistics to really make a judgement.

 

6) Since I am on a roll, two more thoughts: An npc to buy aritificer capes would be very nice. They have sort of flooded the market, and are quickly becoming an unsellable item. Or perhaps the arti cape can have a chance to break when a mixer gets lucky and makes a orange spam sword/armor?

Edited January 15, 2011 by Wizzy

[ZootNerper]

Hi,

 

Well, I'm in that 120-140 training dip and am feeling the pinch with less xp per hour. Also I am experiencing higher breaks. I am no expert on how the game works.

 

I started hard training a/d when Haidir's yeti first became "available" to me. In the early days, I had to have guildies help me with those which I didn't like to have to do. So, I started training lots. Now, I can cope OK on good days and just have to slog it through on bad. Move up to DCW drop in xp, move to FCW xp stays the same (and I still don't have the right atts). MCW I don't really know as I only ever try them on good days with a following wind and when I can pay full attention to my health, but by the time I get to them it doesn't look good. So, the oa's get further away not just because they are further apart. (I don't expect to not have to spend longer between levels)

 

On the breakages front (as posted elsewhere) I'm suffering. I can't put pp on Vitality as I can hardly put enough pp on Reasoning and Instinct. What's my toughness got to do with the toughness of the armour anyway? I am not ready to stop a/d training yet as Yeti still pose a problem.

 

That's my two pence worth.

 

-- Zoot

[Norm]

I agree with almost everything Korrode has said. The breakages I have not had a huge issue with, seems more luck to me usually, but my vit is "decent" or better. Prob, the main issue I would like to see addressed, I dont want to totally neg again to find success, with the amount of time I have to train. I removed HoS and HS, cause I do like to do other things besides fight. I would like to add, I am not chasing any other player here, I know I will never have the time or money to catch some players. Not annoyance or jealousy, just how it is. But, would like to carry on with my own goals, and see the new mob/spawns ideas as a way to do this. I personally am not involved enuff to say one way or the other about the great sword update, will leave it at that.

 

One other note. I think it has been mentioned before. A lot of ideas are tossed around on @6, by Radu and others, but many miss these ideas cause the either are not on, not in ch, or busy and don't catch whats being said. Would love to see a service, like teh_master bot, where players could get caught up on whats being discussed, changes wise. Idk how it would work ( I am a millwrightby trade ).

[hussam]

I did some training today. 144 defense, 30 instinct, 20 vitality (so 34 toughness and 39 reaction). I damaged bronze cuisses and titanium shield in only 83 mchims. The frequency is a bit high in my opinion.

There are several ways to address this. For example, make bronze armor repairable by heavybeard or decrease their breakage chance.

Edited January 21, 2011 by hussam

[Learner]

...but for reasons i cannot fathom, instead we have something along the lines of this:

I totally agree that this definitely needs to be fixed. You can break the 320k per hour on single fluffy at mid 90s a/d but you get a max of 240k an hour on dchim when you reach the appropriate a/d level and build. That doesn't seem very fair.

Yes, it needs fixing ... looks like too much expo from Feros & really excessive exp from Lorc!

[hussam]

...but for reasons i cannot fathom, instead we have something along the lines of this:

I totally agree that this definitely needs to be fixed. You can break the 320k per hour on single fluffy at mid 90s a/d but you get a max of 240k an hour on dchim when you reach the appropriate a/d level and build. That doesn't seem very fair.

Yes, it needs fixing ... looks like too much expo from Feros & really excessive exp from Lorc!

In my opinion, part of the weird variation in experience is because of the huge gap in attributes needed between feros and chims. You train feros at 28/48 p/c (without the need for high instinct/vitality because at this point people don't have very high overall yet) then you suddenly move to dchim and you need 44/48 p/c with plenty of instinct/vitality. But I'm not an expert. Perhaps more experienced people than me can explain better why this happens.

[korrode]

...but for reasons i cannot fathom, instead we have something along the lines of this:

I totally agree that this definitely needs to be fixed. You can break the 320k per hour on single fluffy at mid 90s a/d but you get a max of 240k an hour on dchim when you reach the appropriate a/d level and build. That doesn't seem very fair.

Yes, it needs fixing ... looks like too much expo from Feros & really excessive exp from Lorc!

Spoken like a true i've-never-grinded-high-a/d player!

The regularity of a feeling of achievement at high levels is very sparse as it is, unless you actually want to make the game more tedious and less fun, i recommend against your line of thinking.

[guinevereanne]

Wizzy commented on the arti capes. Slightly off topic, BUT

 

Arti capes take 10 human nexus. The dargon armor and scyth and other high end armor take MAX 7 human nexus.

 

10-7=3pp

 

There are perks that give 3pp, so basically because I invested 3 pp into human I have a minor perk. I think if you lowered the pp to 7 then more people would use them since they would ALREADY have the pp necessary. However as I said before investing 3 more pp that are ONLY useful so you can use an arti cape is bascially taking half a perk (instead of 7pp for the arti perk).

 

I know reducing the pp necessary to wearing the cape would not reduce the flood on the market, however it WOULD (probubly) increase the number of people who want one/are willing ot invest in 1)

[Khalai]

Wizzy commented on the arti capes. Slightly off topic, BUT

 

Arti capes take 10 human nexus. The dargon armor and scyth and other high end armor take MAX 7 human nexus.

 

10-7=3pp

 

There are perks that give 3pp, so basically because I invested 3 pp into human I have a minor perk. I think if you lowered the pp to 7 then more people would use them since they would ALREADY have the pp necessary. However as I said before investing 3 more pp that are ONLY useful so you can use an arti cape is bascially taking half a perk (instead of 7pp for the arti perk).

 

I know reducing the pp necessary to wearing the cape would not reduce the flood on the market, however it WOULD (probubly) increase the number of people who want one/are willing ot invest in 1)

 

If it was only 7 human, I'd be having one already. However, this is exactly what is not desirable. If half of EL has the arti cape, then it loses its purpose, you can raise the rare chance instead for anyone. There has to be some limiting factor as only people who really want it will be also able to use it.

 

But as was suggested, there could be a breakrate introduced (since they are not combat equipment they do not get destroyed at all) either e.g. 1/100 when producing a rare item or 1/10000 when mixing (just like any other tool). Numbers are only illustrative, please don't waste time bashing me for them

[korrode]

arti cape shouldn't need any nexus

no other capes that give a perk do, why is arti any different? why does it need 3pp's+ spent to be able to use the cape?

[hades]

what you said about the char development cycle being ~10 years for any kind of normal player

 

What is a normal EL player in the first place?