Is it worth it mixing high level manu items

[Sithis]

This is simply an ad nauseum reiteration of some dude who pulled a rare out of his butt and now wonders why he cant continue to sustain his profit from the sale of said item to duplicate the feat again. Good gosh people. I can guarantee you until all rare armors and weapons are removed from the game the NPC price is not going to go up. Oh and btw there is no rare CoL. Not a thing has been said that hasnt been said many times in previous threads. Necro. FTW.

 

I am happy to see a healthy argument as yours. and it is not necro but hey 35 post over 4 years i am happy u can actually write something. Was too much for you to read it all yes?

Edited June 5, 2010 by Xanthus

[Torr]

its not wrong. there is something like a $ to gc exchange because people need so much gc to buy something that the gc is worth RL $.

 

yes but pls answer the question how the exact rate is determined (like 7k gc per $ for example).

 

AFAIK, current price of rosto is 32k and shop price is 5$. Now 32000/5=6400 and you get gc to $ rate.

 

raise NPC price and manuers increase price, people need more gc and they buy more gc, increasing the amount of gc you get each $

people take that rate for their rosto/binding selling and prices go through the roof, again

no, just compare cutlass to COLs. even now, all COL ingreds together are cheaper than NPC price and that is so for a longer time already. The rare ingredients are distributed from the players to all the things you can make or do with them. So if you buy cutlass cheaper from NPC, then rare ingredients are saved for other items. But even if you start to sell COLs from NPC for 60k tomorrow, the players will have 'too few rare ingredients' - thats intentionally, they ARE MEANT to be rare. That doesnt mean at all that they fly through the roof with their prices. after all their prices is kinda fixed by shop price in real $.

 

Even if they are rare doesn't mean they need too be freaking expansive. Shop doesn't have anything with cost of rare item in game, cause gc to $ rate can change, except if u have $ to spend in shop then current price of cutlass doesn't affect you.

 

your stuck in a vicious circle and the only solution you guys seem to come up with is just staying inside that circle complaining each time you get at the point where things dont sell anymore... and now you reached the limit and suggest to increase prices even more? sounds like a big joke :/

in a working economy providers strive for competition, providers stay competitive by offering goods at lower prices then other sellers..

just use some common sense and realise that you cant get feathers from a frog.. for those of you who dont get that, you cant expect people to pay what they dont have, focus on what they do have to spend and adjust prices according to that, thats when you sell the most, when you offer goods at an affordable rate.

 

no, neither the inflation nor the recession is a vicious circle, they just have selfsustaining tendencies. You are just favoring a recession while i prefer adaption to inflation.

 

regards

 

You are not adapting to inflation you are trying to stimulate her by trying to raise NPC prices. If u raise cutlass NPC price to 60k, you'll be able to sell it for 50-55k and that leaves space so that prices of rare ings goes up.

[Infamous]

its not wrong. there is something like a $ to gc exchange because people need so much gc to buy something that the gc is worth RL $.

 

yes but pls answer the question how the exact rate is determined (like 7k gc per $ for example).

 

raise NPC price and manuers increase price, people need more gc and they buy more gc, increasing the amount of gc you get each $

people take that rate for their rosto/binding selling and prices go through the roof, again

 

no, just compare cutlass to COLs. even now, all COL ingreds together are cheaper than NPC price and that is so for a longer time already. The rare ingredients are distributed from the players to all the things you can make or do with them. So if you buy cutlass cheaper from NPC, then rare ingredients are saved for other items. But even if you start to sell COLs from NPC for 60k tomorrow, the players will have 'too few rare ingredients' - thats intentionally, they ARE MEANT to be rare. That doesnt mean at all that they fly through the roof with their prices. after all their prices is kinda fixed by shop price in real $.

 

 

your stuck in a vicious circle and the only solution you guys seem to come up with is just staying inside that circle complaining each time you get at the point where things dont sell anymore... and now you reached the limit and suggest to increase prices even more? sounds like a big joke :/

in a working economy providers strive for competition, providers stay competitive by offering goods at lower prices then other sellers..

just use some common sense and realise that you cant get feathers from a frog.. for those of you who dont get that, you cant expect people to pay what they dont have, focus on what they do have to spend and adjust prices according to that, thats when you sell the most, when you offer goods at an affordable rate.

 

no, neither the inflation nor the recession is a vicious circle, they just have selfsustaining tendencies. You are just favoring a recession while i prefer adaption to inflation.

 

regards

 

the rate is determined by how much gc people buy, the more Gc people need, the more expensive Gc will get, untill the point where people dont buy anymore, and then sellers lower their price, they offer gc at a lower rate so they start selling gc again

 

second, the price of rare ingreds isnt determined by shop at all, people look at gold sellers rate, then look at shop price, and use the gold seller rate to sell their rare ingreds for.

lets say you get 50k gc for $5, then that will be the price of bindings soon.

 

third part is the dumbest thing i ever heard, in no way do i favor a recession, i've been argueing for a looong time to get people to lower their prices so the economy can get moving again, but with people like you we will stay in this recession..

your "adaptation to inflation" keeps everyone in this recession in the first place, please do enlighten everyone and tell them how to spend more then they have.

as example, if you earn $1000 a month, your car payment is $400 a month, $150 for cable tv, $200 for insurance, $100 a week for gas, and like $200 a week for food, how will you pay for all that? and then some random dimwits decide they should charge more for your car insurance

there is no nice way to tell you this, but its dumb and ignorant to think a price increase will fix everything, as i said, you cant expect people to pay more then they have without ending up increasing your rare ingred prices again.. in which case NPC will be cheaper again soon

take the blindfold off, this has been going on for ~5 years now, and everyone keeps suggesting raising prices, free market in EL hasnt been working since EL started, i think its time market should stabilize by setting standard prices for things

 

Xanthus good for you, you made an OSOMN and sold a nexus removal, gratz on the 1mil but frankly it isnt what were discussing, and its not related to manu either.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Infamous

[Gilrain]

just a note: using harsh words shows only that you are out of arguments....

Edited June 6, 2010 by Gilrain

[Infamous]

sometimes harsh words are needed cause thats the only thing people do understand.

saying im out of arguments doesnt show you have any arguments left either, i've used up mine, but its not being proven wrong.

 

its economics in its most basic form

you cant charge $10 for a bread if people only have $2 to spend on that, that way no1 will ever sell anything no matter what change you come up with.

either increase players income, or lower items prices to get players buying things from you

basic economics: you cant charge more then people have.

another basic economic thing: if peoples spending power is low, they are less likely to buy things. increase the spending power, and they will spend

 

these are things you learn in highschool economy class, dont tell me you forgot already.

 

i have to agree with Dilly on this

the moment everyone stops thinking the 'market can be fixed by players', there may yet be hope ^^.

 

we need to stabilize market, fixed prizes for everything so that we can have a good, healthy economy.

no player made-up crap prizes out of greed, or foolish spending

 

in RL free market might work, but there it is made up by schooled economists, in EL its made up by pre-school kids who have more time then others to spend on the game, one decides to spend 15k on a EFE just because he wants it right now and you all end up paying that much for an EFE.

its just wrong to think it will work like this, and it amazes me that none of the higher ups notice it, it hasnt worked for 5 years and yet they dont do anything

Edited June 7, 2010 by Infamous

[nathanstenzel]

Necro....yeah. This sort of discussion has had probably 30 threads in the past. The topic of the economy has leaked into this as it has into many others too.

 

As I have stated in other topics, barter can be a check and balance for gc prices. If two items have similar rare ingreds, the prices should not be too different. If the gc prices suck too badly, you should be able to trade another item that is undervalued in gc as part of the payment or a little bit of overpayment for the item with the nasty gc price. Steel helm and iron cuisses may be decent examples. Both have had terrible gc prices in the past compared to the ingreds used.

 

The gc to shop token notion could help with the gc side of things and Radu could remove some gc from the game that way by making it perhaps a little bit expensive compared to rosto/binding stone prices.

[csiga]

Well, the question is simple: no items worth to make them, but its fun to make nice armor, especially if you think to EL as a game, not an economy simulator )

Edited June 8, 2010 by csiga

[Sithis]

Well, the question is simple: no items worth to make them, but its fun to make nice armor, especially if you think to EL as a game, not an economy simulator )

 

i totally agree that is why i keep making , the problem is to continue mix there must be someone to buy it, and if everyone buys from npc there will not be

[groomsh]

There would be no problem with lowering prices (at least not from my side) if i knew that my items will not be resold by someone.

Reselling made me quit making high end manu stuff for sale, i mix it only for friends (and i bet LOT of other mixers do the same).

I have no problem to make minimal profit, but i really hate to see a smarta** reselling my stuff.

And this is the same for all other sold goods.

[Infamous]

thats why players themselves cant fix economy, you can try but someone will resell everything you make anyway

and thats why we need NPCs to regulate prices, maybe they can only sell end-product items so players can still fight over prices on ingreds but never go over the top.

[PaulB]

If gold coin wasn't so difficult to make with some skills the demand for it wouldn't be so high.

 

EL wasn't developed to make gold coin income easy so I can't see any way that this 'problem' will be fixed other than players keeping prices low (which will not happen because some people refuse to drop prices).

[Infamous]

thats why you need NPC regulating prices, if people wont lower price then force them with NPCs selling for less so they have to lower price

make a poll about it and direct radu to it ^^

Edited June 8, 2010 by Infamous

[Tico]

but with buy/sell prices on NPC's for any item the product can be as cheap to produce as radu wants it, or sell for as much as radu wants.

take Steel Plate as an example

 

Ingreds for a Steel plate:

4 Hydro bars

3 EFE

30 steel bars

5 leather

6 threads

 

if all the ingreds, excluding the EFE were available from an NPC for like 25k all together, and the same NPC would sell Steel Plate for 50k

you'd have a set amount of prices on those ingreds, and your end product, it would be up to you how big your profit is depending on how much you want to pay for EFE.

 

I realy hope ure not suggesting that NPC sells hydro bars...

Buying PPs with GC is realy bad for the game, dont even think about it

[PaulB]

but with buy/sell prices on NPC's for any item the product can be as cheap to produce as radu wants it, or sell for as much as radu wants.

take Steel Plate as an example

 

Ingreds for a Steel plate:

4 Hydro bars

3 EFE

30 steel bars

5 leather

6 threads

 

if all the ingreds, excluding the EFE were available from an NPC for like 25k all together, and the same NPC would sell Steel Plate for 50k

you'd have a set amount of prices on those ingreds, and your end product, it would be up to you how big your profit is depending on how much you want to pay for EFE.

 

I realy hope ure not suggesting that NPC sells hydro bars...

Buying PPs with GC is realy bad for the game, dont even think about it

 

NPC does sell hydro bars >.<

[Gilrain]

thats why you need NPC regulating prices, if people wont lower price then force them with NPCs selling for less so they have to lower price

make a poll about it and direct radu to it ^^

 

now that we are back to topic in a way: what you say is just wrong, regardless how often you repeat it.

If you try to force ppl to sell something below the price that it costs for them (production+convenience costs etc.) then they will just stop selling it at all.

And thats what happened for some goods, which is not a drama, but intended obviously.

Its just a question for which of the items this is a good thing and for which maybe a bad thing.

[Infamous]

you think its wrong because you dont understand it, what do people do if the end product sells for less? they will buy their ingreds for less too

people will keep making items, all they have to do is stop buying expensive ingreds

the reason they stopped making some items is cause you allow people to charge more and more for base ingreds, and you encourage them to do so

 

it goes both ways, charge more for end products and ingred prices go up, charge less and ingred prices go down..

if people wont sell bindings and EFE for less then let them keep them, its not like they got any use for them anyway so they will sell for lower eventually

Edited June 8, 2010 by Infamous

[Ateh]

Are we playing Eternal Lands, the game where you can develop skills and if you develop them for long enough you can make nice stuff and sell them and make a nice profit, or are we playing some Economy Simulation game? I think it's the first, and in that case, how much more sense does it make to make sure making an item with gathered mats, will be less costly to produce than it would cost to go to an NPC and buy the item, without any risk of critfailing?

 

Shouldn't improvements to a game in the first place be to stimulate the players, and motivate them to want to level even further because at the end, the reward is good?

 

bravo, i would play EL again if such focus was indeed made, however if the focus is instead upon GC sinks ( horse whistles / tailoring / archery to name only 3 ) then quite soon the issue becomes not '' how do I sell my product at a fair price ? '' but instead '' who the hell do I sell my product to ? ''

[groomsh]

people will keep making items, all they have to do is stop buying expensive ingreds

the reason they stopped making some items is cause you allow people to charge more and more for base ingreds, and you encourage them to do so

I disagree with what you said above.

Yes, there are people who might have stopped making items because of that, but i think it's just the minority of mixers.

The only problem why i stopped (and probably a lot more mixers) is the reselling ... I always make final goods from scratch, including harvesting etc.

That said, it costs me "only" time ... But what really can piss me off, is somebody taking advantage of what i've done - reading books/leveling skills/harvesting/mixing - and this

only for the sole purpose of getting as much gc as possible. Well i would have nothing against reselling if all other players would not adjust prices of all other items according to price

of these resellers, what mainly happens on bots. Then this "smart" player comes and wants to buy some items from me really cheap

Most (if not all) players check prices on bots and use the same (or at most a little lower) price as bots when selling them, but not when trying to buy.

Well this would be also ok if it would not affect items i need and can't do myself.

I was selling HEs on my bot for 7-7.5gc for a looooooong time, but then i realized that some people just come, buy them and put em on theirs bot and sell them for 8-8.5 gc.

I like mixing and it's the main thing why i play EL (besides the people of course), but i do not play EL to support somebody to earn easy gc without any work/time involved (considering how hard/time consuming

it is with mixing), because that makes me feel like a "slave" ... and it somehow ruins the good feeling from mixing.

[Sithis]

you think its wrong because you dont understand it, what do people do if the end product sells for less? they will buy their ingreds for less too

people will keep making items, all they have to do is stop buying expensive ingreds

the reason they stopped making some items is cause you allow people to charge more and more for base ingreds, and you encourage them to do so

 

it goes both ways, charge more for end products and ingred prices go up, charge less and ingred prices go down..

if people wont sell bindings and EFE for less then let them keep them, its not like they got any use for them anyway so they will sell for lower eventually

 

What you are saying here is one side of the story which i disagree, selling expesive the final product doesnt have to adjust the ings prices, because those ings are not only used for the particural product. Take as example iron bar, it is used at most swords but also in eng, increasing the price of selling the bar will increase both final products at manu and at eng.

And at the current auction for steel bars (5k) u can see that buy now price is equal to the npc selling price , is that because iron increased to npc sell price or just greed? What will happen if someone buys at 60-65gc? Dont you think that with this rate eventually price of hydro bar will adjust close to NPC sell price (iirc 15kgc) ? U can understand that such action will increase profit in alchemy (maybe at havesting because eventually iron ore will increase) but final products like armors/swords will not because there is capped price from npc, so the result which will be?

[Gilrain]

you think its wrong because you dont understand it, what do people do if the end product sells for less? they will buy their ingreds for less too

people will keep making items, all they have to do is stop buying expensive ingreds

the reason they stopped making some items is cause you allow people to charge more and more for base ingreds, and you encourage them to do so

 

the main mechanism to prevent people from selling at an exaggerated price is competition, not regulation.

Thats valid as long as we aim at a 'free market' (in a way).

So if there are exaggerated selling prices (from players), we have a kind of market failure, which should be investigated.

BUT in the case of high manu items like dragon armor or weapons, i cant see exaggerated prices anywhere at all!

Maybe the case where someone tries to sell a COL for 95k - lets look at this one. Two possible reasons: either too few ppl making (and bothering with sale of) COLs at all or severe lack of ingredients to make COLs at all.

Looking at the current bot offers, its easy to buy all ingreds at ~85k today, so i'd think it was an exaggerated price which was supported by the first reason: only few makers/sellers bothering.

Or has anyone a third reason i overlooked ?

 

it goes both ways, charge more for end products and ingred prices go up, charge less and ingred prices go down..

if people wont sell bindings and EFE for less then let them keep them, its not like they got any use for them anyway so they will sell for lower eventually

or dont sell at all, because they dont need to. In fact there are good reasons to keep a low quantity of the rare items in your sto instead of selling them all out.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Gilrain

[Infamous]

you think its wrong because you dont understand it, what do people do if the end product sells for less? they will buy their ingreds for less too

people will keep making items, all they have to do is stop buying expensive ingreds

the reason they stopped making some items is cause you allow people to charge more and more for base ingreds, and you encourage them to do so

 

it goes both ways, charge more for end products and ingred prices go up, charge less and ingred prices go down..

if people wont sell bindings and EFE for less then let them keep them, its not like they got any use for them anyway so they will sell for lower eventually

 

What you are saying here is one side of the story which i disagree, selling expesive the final product doesnt have to adjust the ings prices, because those ings are not only used for the particural product 1. Take as example iron bar, it is used at most swords but also in eng, increasing the price of selling the bar will increase both final products at manu and at eng.2

And at the current auction for steel bars (5k) u can see that buy now price is equal to the npc selling price , is that because iron increased to npc sell price or just greed? What will happen if someone buys at 60-65gc? Dont you think that with this rate eventually price of hydro bar will adjust close to NPC sell price (iirc 15kgc) ? U can understand that such action will increase profit in alchemy (maybe at havesting because eventually iron ore will increase) but final products like armors/swords will not because there is capped price from npc, so the result which will be?

 

1) it will adjust the ingred prices, look at great swords, they use EFE's, so do armors, price of EFE is like 15k now? even though its used in a tit long which is about 1k? going with what you said the EFE price shouldnt increase cause its used in other items (tit long in this case), but if that was true, we'd have EFE's for 300gc

2) well thats common sence, and you want to increase them more and more? increasing NPC prices will screw yourself over, you'll have to pay more for ingreds, and others wont buy your product cause its too expensive.. is that what you are aiming for?

 

and such action wont increase profit for alch or decrease profit in manu at all, just because i said radu should set NPC prices for every end-product doesnt mean he cant adjust other prices aswell.

 

you think its wrong because you dont understand it, what do people do if the end product sells for less? they will buy their ingreds for less too

people will keep making items, all they have to do is stop buying expensive ingreds

the reason they stopped making some items is cause you allow people to charge more and more for base ingreds, and you encourage them to do so

 

the main mechanism to prevent people from selling at an exaggerated price is competition, not regulation.

Thats valid as long as we aim at a 'free market' (in a way).

So if there are exaggerated selling prices (from players), we have a kind of market failure, which should be investigated.

BUT in the case of high manu items like dragon armor or weapons, i cant see exaggerated prices anywhere at all! 2

Maybe the case where someone tries to sell a COL for 95k - lets look at this one. Two possible reasons: either too few ppl making (and bothering with sale of) COLs at all or severe lack of ingredients to make COLs at all.

Looking at the current bot offers, its easy to buy all ingreds at ~85k today, so i'd think it was an exaggerated price which was supported by the first reason: only few makers/sellers bothering.

Or has anyone a third reason i overlooked ?

 

it goes both ways, charge more for end products and ingred prices go up, charge less and ingred prices go down..

if people wont sell bindings and EFE for less then let them keep them, its not like they got any use for them anyway so they will sell for lower eventually

or dont sell at all, because they dont need to. In fact there are good reasons to keep a low quantity of the rare items in your sto instead of selling them all out.

 

1) because of competition we got these high prices in the first place lol, everyone wants rare ingreds fast and compete to pay more and more for something rare

competition is impossible in EL is you mean compete for lwoer prices, someone will just buy from you at the lower price and sell it for higher as Groomsh said.

so free market screws you and all your buyers over, thats why we end up in tons of these economy discussion topics saying the economy is bad, that its hard to sell your product etc etc.

 

2) theres a market failure for a very very long time now, where is the investigation? what will an investigation do about it? sounds like you want to increase prices more to fix it, yes, that will increase your sales by 99%, the moment people get more gc aswell to pay for it...

[sarcasm]I was at the mall today, and every store was advertising: Buy one of these, for the price of three... shampoo from $1,99, now for just $4,55!!!!!

and people were just pooring in all leaving the store with atleast a bag or cart full of shampoo[/sarcasm]

increasing your price is such a wonderfull technique to sell your product and fix economy

 

lets put it easy for you, if you only got 5 dollar, would you get bread at a store that sells for $4 or to the store that sells cheaper for like $1,99?

it tastes the same, looks the same, every fiber, molecule is the same, same grain was used, exactly the same grain it could be twin grains for all i care, baker touched the dough in the same places at the same time etc..

so no argueing about which one is best

 

just because prices would go down with regulation doesnt mean you wont make profit, or that you wont sell anything

it just means you'll have to pay less for your EFE and bindings, so that your customers can afford your prices while still giving you a profit.

wouldnt you rather have 2k profit when everything is less expensive (with regulation) then having no profit and sell for less then ingred prices? (as it is now)

Edited June 9, 2010 by Infamous

[nathanstenzel]

thats why you need NPC regulating prices, if people wont lower price then force them with NPCs selling for less so they have to lower price

make a poll about it and direct radu to it ^^

I problem with this is that rare ingreds are not available through npc else than wolfram and hydro bars. The EFE, binding stones, scales, etc at only available through players or the shop (some of them anyways). You could lower the finished goods price, but it would mean that nobody will sell it because the people who get the rare ingreds refuse to sell those cheap. Very few people (must have a bot) can figure out how to sell expensive gear like that.

[Sithis]

@Infamous

 

What profit? with real cost beeing higher than NPC?

Edited June 9, 2010 by Xanthus

[Infamous]

thats why you need NPC regulating prices, if people wont lower price then force them with NPCs selling for less so they have to lower price

make a poll about it and direct radu to it ^^

I problem with this is that rare ingreds are not available through npc else than wolfram and hydro bars. The EFE, binding stones, scales, etc at only available through players or the shop (some of them anyways). You could lower the finished goods price, but it would mean that nobody will sell it because the people who get the rare ingreds refuse to sell those cheap. Very few people (must have a bot) can figure out how to sell expensive gear like that.

 

if they dont sell them cheap then dont buy them, they will lower price eventually, unless they level up crafting or manu themselves to use those bindings and EFE.

do the same as customers do now, they dont buy from people cause cost is too high, and here we are on forums argueing about it.

 

@Infamous

 

What profit? with real cost beeing higher than NPC?

 

real cost will be lower then NPC, simply because you wont pay 15k for an EFE anymore afterwards. just like customers do to manuers now, they dont pay high prices till they get lower. sellers will have no choice but to lower their prices.

read the posts next time.

[Sithis]

So basically we dont mix and we wait for people good will to drop prices