Pin Poll

[Dugur]

I can see an evil light at the end of the road... I see Dugur increasing his gcs in the sto because pinning was removed and now he controls the ice dragon's scales market (which i'm sure he already has a lot of them in his sto).

 

Sorry, only 1 ice scale. And no, I have none on bot either.

[revi]

If everything gets unpinnable, that means for me that training ranging will only cost gc (and lots of it), and that I have no change whatsoever to participate in higher level invasions (a/d ~80). Black dragon has already been made unpinnable in it's cave, and that removes one of the few ways of not losing too much gc on ranging. And I'm not talking about making a profit, but about spending less than 1k gc per k experience...

 

I'd expect that a number of rangers (esp. lower level) would drop ranging (I will), or at the very least not buy AP pots => no more gc sink (full AP costs 900k, still a large amount for most players, I'd think ...).

[Miiks]

I don't understand... Why you people keep crying "aaa pinning must stay or ranging won't be fun / profitable etc. etc."

 

Tell me why you can't get someone with higher a/d to tank the dragon while you shoot? I think it would increase the price of dragon scales a bit, make the game more "realistic", add more challenge in killing dragons and especially add some teamwork in game. Just give me good explanation why this is too hard for you rangers?

[Gilrain]

Last night invasion with Robin Tell. I log in and 3 monsters left. Been like that for a while too. There were few going to take the MBs, but one died due to lag.

Not many fighters take on Ice Dragons either, but surprisingly the Iceys die in invasions the moment someone finds one. No risk.

If they were pinnable, there'd be 0 mobs.

 

Killing mare bulangiu is a team effort, the way it is supposed to be on top monsters. There are two opinions to this. Those who like some challenge and those who like easy levels. I always thought EL was supporting the challenge.

agreed, but this could imho mean, that we just remove the pinning from dragons, not remove it altogether.

 

I also don't think that the argument that it is the only way archery is useful is a particularly valid one. Useful is not always about gc per hour or exp per hour. Nor does everything in EL have to be profitable. Whatever happened to just doing something because it's fun and different? Maybe people should look at archery as a sport skill, or maybe some things could be added less abusable. Again, something abused shouldn't stay just because there is nothing immediately available to replace it and provide the drops and exp you all have been getting accustomed to.

agreed, but to have fun in a game, you must be able to achieve SOMETHING, not necessarily profit. Watching the ranging animation alone isnt enough in the long term. Removing pinning would just mean that ranging would not be a combat skill anymore. If we speak of reality: in a wood full of trees i would easily be able to run around and fire some arrows on a huge creature with quite low risk of dieing (at least with some practice). In EL its nearly impossible to fire some arrows like that with any effect, because of several reasons:

1) distance: its not realistic that i need to come close to such a huge creature in order to shoot an arrow at it. Additionally dragons are not very slow (make them move slower pls, when you remove their pinning!), so with the current long ranging animation, they are way too fast in melee with you when you shoot at them.

2) hittting: if you finally found a fighter to tank (its rare since most good fighters are extremely profit-oriented) and you are near distance ranging, then you still are missing way too often. Near distance shooting should be more accurate imho (especially when the creature is huge and stands still).

3) user interface: when you fight melee, you engage, then concentrate on healing, sr drinking (and finally fleeing). When you try to range higher monsters w/o pinning, you have a very complex problem, cause you must observe the map, are hindered by trees and such and still must aim each time you want to shoot, while the monster moves and then you have a recovery time where you cant move at all. It helps to use the minimap, but even there it happens that you click on a place you cant move to.

I never tried that with first person perspective, but i'd guess it doesnt help much. Not even speaking of ranging in invasions, where you flee from one and run into another monster (which caused my last brick in AA when ranging MBs and icys).

 

So i'd think we'd really need some other changes before removing pinning altogether.

 

I don't understand... Why you people keep crying "aaa pinning must stay or ranging won't be fun / profitable etc. etc."

 

Tell me why you can't get someone with higher a/d to tank the dragon while you shoot? I think it would increase the price of dragon scales a bit, make the game more "realistic", add more challenge in killing dragons and especially add some teamwork in game. Just give me good explanation why this is too hard for you rangers?

 

for 2 reasons:

1) the fighters: speak to the fighters, that are able to tank a dragon pls. Like i said above many of them are not interested (like with invasions) and the reasons for that should be discussed in another thread.

 

2) the current situation: we havent got enough ppl playing for that imho. When you play at european daytime, then there is often enough simply noone available that is interested or able to help (with invasion leftovers for example). Why not let rangers kill what the other players left over (from the usually at american evening time starting invasions). Its not like any ranger ever took a beast from a fighter...

Edited February 15, 2010 by Gilrain

[Quesar]

I don't understand... Why you people keep crying "aaa pinning must stay or ranging won't be fun / profitable etc. etc."

 

Tell me why you can't get someone with higher a/d to tank the dragon while you shoot? I think it would increase the price of dragon scales a bit, make the game more "realistic", add more challenge in killing dragons and especially add some teamwork in game. Just give me good explanation why this is too hard for you rangers?

 

I've shot close to 100k arrows to get to ranging 39. Please tell me who I can get to just stand there and be beaten up by a dragon while I shoot 100k more.

 

I am a ranger and voted that I like the pinning.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Quesar

[Miiks]

I don't understand... Why you people keep crying "aaa pinning must stay or ranging won't be fun / profitable etc. etc."

 

Tell me why you can't get someone with higher a/d to tank the dragon while you shoot? I think it would increase the price of dragon scales a bit, make the game more "realistic", add more challenge in killing dragons and especially add some teamwork in game. Just give me good explanation why this is too hard for you rangers?

 

I've shot close to 100k arrows to get to ranging 39. Please tell me who I can get to just stand there and be beaten up by a dragon while I shoot 100k more.

Haha do you understand that this is the point in whole thread? You can shoot 100k arrows safely and with no breaks. That ruins the market of dragon scales and makes ranging too easy skill to lvl. IMO dragons are not meant to be farmed 24/7.

 

Secondy: Someone could tell me how is this situation different to dug farming dragons with harm? People were mad about that back then and it was changed.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Miiks

[revi]

Haha do you understand that this is the point in whole thread? You can shoot 100k arrows safely and with no breaks. That ruins the market of dragon scales and makes ranging too easy skill to lvl. IMO dragons are not meant to be farmed 24/7.

<...>

 

Those 100k arrows will have cost you at least 1000k (or 1M) gc... And NO way to reduce that expense (much)

[Chosen]

Remove AP pots and watch this problem disappear.

[Miiks]

Haha do you understand that this is the point in whole thread? You can shoot 100k arrows safely and with no breaks. That ruins the market of dragon scales and makes ranging too easy skill to lvl. IMO dragons are not meant to be farmed 24/7.

<...>

 

Those 100k arrows will have cost you at least 1000k (or 1M) gc... And NO way to reduce that expense (much)

Pretty interesting: I asked my ranger friend about the cost of killing dragon. He has 36 ran and 60 AP. He said killing a dragon with training arrows cost about 1500gc. So you still make easily over 2k gc profit per dragon and get good ran exp.

 

Yes AP costs 900k but still it's not that bad investment compared to exp and gc you get by farming dragon (and anyway every "real" ranger has it).

 

Phail.

 

Remove AP pots and watch this problem disappear.

Wouldn't solve the problem but make it bit harder and more expensive to train dragons (and ruin the ranging skill in general)

Edited February 15, 2010 by Miiks

[Wizzy]

Haha do you understand that this is the point in whole thread? You can shoot 100k arrows safely and with no breaks. That ruins the market of dragon scales and makes ranging too easy skill to lvl. IMO dragons are not meant to be farmed 24/7.

<...>

 

Those 100k arrows will have cost you at least 1000k (or 1M) gc... And NO way to reduce that expense (much)

Pretty interesting: I asked my ranger friend about the cost of killing dragon. He has 36 ran and 60 AP. He said killing a dragon with training arrows cost about 1500gc. So you still make easily over 2k gc profit per dragon and get good ran exp.

 

Yes AP costs 900k but still it's not that bad investment compared to exp and gc you get by farming dragon (and anyway every "real" ranger has it).

 

Phail.

 

Remove AP pots and watch this problem disappear.

Wouldn't solve the problem but make it bit harder and more expensive to train dragons (and ruin the ranging skill in general)

 

Just add some AP protedtion to dragons

 

They had magic resisitance added, Icey has crazy magic resistance. full mage harms very little

[Miiks]

Just add some AP protedtion to dragons

 

They had magic resisitance added, Icey has crazy magic resistance. full mage harms very little

Pr0 idea.

[ProHibited]

Just add some AP protedtion to dragons

 

Alternatively, change dragons stats and/or give them the ability to do range damage or areal fire/ice/poison damage (higher then max protection can absorb).

 

Edit: Or give ranging equipment - to protections

Edited February 15, 2010 by ProHibited

[Khalai]

Just add some AP protedtion to dragons

 

They had magic resisitance added, Icey has crazy magic resistance. full mage harms very little

Pr0 idea.

 

<sarcasm> Why not make them invulnerable? You know, that way nobody can manage to bypass some protection they have been given </sarcasm>

[Miiks]

Just add some AP protedtion to dragons

 

They had magic resisitance added, Icey has crazy magic resistance. full mage harms very little

Pr0 idea.

 

<sarcasm> Why not make them invulnerable? You know, that way nobody can manage to bypass some protection they have been given </sarcasm>

Why don't we remove mag protection from dragon so mages can go farm them too?

 

Secondy: Someone could tell me how is this situation different to dug farming dragons with harm? People were mad about that back then and it was changed.

No one still have answered this question.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Miiks

[elg3neral]

*1 Ranging is an great skill ty Radu to make this happen.

*2 pinning isn't an bug but an feature . case closed.

*3 I think dugur is right about drag farming, .

When you hear that there are ranger(s) out there who kill 6 Reddragons in 1 hour and can kill up to 8 in just one storage run!

Thats not fair and out of balance!

[Gilrain]

Secondy: Someone could tell me how is this situation different to dug farming dragons with harm? People were mad about that back then and it was changed.

No one still have answered this question.

 

yes i have answered that question, you might have overread it, so i repeat:

 

removing all pinning possibilities from the normal dragon spawn regions has my full support.

 

Everything else you said i disagree with btw.

[Ozmondius]

It's hard for me to figure out how, with a straight face, people can use certain systems to their great advantage for extended periods of time and then attempt to foreclose the possibility for others when they see fit--whether to maintain competitive advantage or for some other reason.

[Shujral]

It's hard for me to figure out how, with a straight face, people can use certain systems to their great advantage for extended periods of time and then attempt to foreclose the possibility for others when they see fit--whether to maintain competitive advantage or for some other reason.

 

Aimed at someone in particular? or just in general?

[ccReynolds]

To me it is typical in MMO/RPG type games for people to start to lobby against imba skills/farms once too many people figure them out. If a lvl 10 ranger can farm dragons solo then it is OP. If you have to have a decent level and a bunch of money worth of AP potions then what is the big deal?

 

Any one who complains about realism either hasn't played the game or is a hypocryte. Can the average person really rundown and kill a deer in real life with a bone? Are there rose bushes that you can harvest 20,000 flowers a day from?

 

I'm not a rager but I like it because it adds a new dimmension to the game.

Edited February 16, 2010 by ccReynolds

[asgnny]

The AP pots are a gc sink, but when compared to the 525k+gc players pay for a nexus, or ~1M gc for a bought pickpoint, 900kgc (assuming 0 reconstructed) for max AP isn't so ridiculous. I'd rather see some more emphasis put on the ranging perks and ranging levels instead of the AP pots.

 

I've gone afk in the middle of solo ranging a pinned dragon before... it's just 'wrong', imo. As a previous post touched upon, someone at range level 10 shouldn't be able to simply and singlehandedly kill one of the strongest creatures in the game, without risk of life or limb (following pinning).

 

Range level: 33 (no plans to level further)

0 AP; no range perks, no intention to take them

[Gwaew]

Basically my opinion is: remove pinning (at least selectively, e.g. dragon spawns) if and only if there's something else changed to keep ranging being a fun skill.

 

I'll not repeat any of the above ideas but simply state that just about all very good ideas any any combination of them would "satisfy" my request for "compensation" if pinning spots/ways was/were decreased.

 

However here's one more, which I don't think I've seen yet:

=> Pricing of ammunition or output/ings/tools for making it could be adjusted.

Yes, I know, Archery is supposed a money sink. But if some of the means of compensating the gc loss of ranging by more or less easily getting some loot by using it are removed then the loss of gc would too much outweigh the fun of archery.

 

[[ Off topic: ]] An exception to the above statement are of course the would-be-rangers out there who went from "lvl 10-15 noob" to "profitable dragon slayer" in about 15 minutes by spending a few hundred k of their millions in store on AP, elven bow and PK arrows (well in the case I'm referring to, the PK arrow idea came a day or so later, in fact. But anyway, the problem of gc being able completely compensate for no-(need-for-)training-at-all is not the matter of discussion here...)

 

[[ topic ctd: ]]

So, in order for Archery to remain a money sink, but still have pins removed AND not kill all the fun of raning in the process things like these could be done:

- slightly reduce price of training ammo (so training would still be affordable w/o some of the pinning possibilities ingame)

- same result, different way: increase exp per hit for archery, so training "the hard way" (i.e. w/o pinning) is not so much a pain anymore and people would still stick to archery)

 

- slightly increase NPC-price of PK ammo AND reduce either ingredients neede for making them or ingredients / breaking chance of arrow/bolt head mold

=> result: people have the choice: be rich and lazy and buy them or work hard and make them (but not be punished for doing so on top by even loosing money as compared to buying in the process)

 

 

To sum up: I voted "I like it, I'm a ranger", because I am (by heart, not skill (also, only 5 AP, yet... I'm soo poor)) and because I am forced to like it, because there are (currently) no viable alternatives for increasing ones archery skill. And until the alternatives mentioned by me and the many posts above are implemented I do think pinning should stay.

 

May Mielikki be with every true ranger out there !

Gwaew

[Shujral]

- slightly reduce price of training ammo (so training would still be affordable w/o some of the pinning possibilities ingame)

 

While its a good idea, I doubt any [reasonable] price decrease could offset removal of pinning.

[korrode]

Remove pinning.

 

Implement a 'threat level' item or spell, where by the person who uses it (usually it would be the strongest melee fighter engaged in combat with the dragon) keeps the creatures attention for X seconds (i.e. the creature will not turn to weaker fighters that engage it and will not try and flee the combat to go get a ranger shooting it for the duration of the spell/item).

(and before anyone mentions it, yes i know armor is currently taken into account for threat level calc, and know about the stronger fighters unequipping while others engage)

 

Better setup the stats of creatures designed to be ganged.

eg.

• increase their crit-hit and decrease their crit-dmg rates so no one will be melee'ing them solo with little or no disses till it's dead, but fighters can still at least last a while.
  
• remove all their reaction and probably decrease their def so a much wider level range of melee fighters can actually have an impact. (as opposed to the current situation where a person with 100 attack can't hit them with anything other than crit-hits)
  
• do whatever change is needed so rangers can easily hit them (i assume greatly increasing their light modifier would work?) so rangers of most all levels can use good arrows and actually be contributing.
  

The idea isn't to make levels worthless, but it is to make it so a group of say 10 medium level people can kill a dragon in the same sort of time as a group of 4 high level people... unlike atm where the group of high level people can own a dragon np and the medium level people just have no hope (well, without pinning).

 

A main part of the idea is to remove the pretty extreme amount of grinding/spending prerequisite for teaming up with friends to go challenge these big bad monsters.

 

I think it would be a good thing if people could start EL, play for a few months, and then be able to partake in this kind of fun PvE (and actually be having some see-able impact on the creature, so they don't feel useless/pointless.)

 

 

Anyways all just imo.

[Zephlix]

what about making trees climbable ?

 

and dragon along with any other creatures with wings have a flight distance and able to hit rangers beyond a pin-able object?

[Shujral]

I think it would be a good thing if people could start EL, play for a few months, and then be able to partake in this kind of fun PvE (and actually be having some see-able impact on the creature, so they don't feel useless/pointless.)

 

+1

 

[That being said, its been a number of years and I *still* can't partake in this kind of fun PvE )

Edited February 18, 2010 by Shujral