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Boycott Learner

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Yesterday I mentioned on @6 that I see nothing so terrific in what Learner did, it's just a common market move - cause an artificial scarcity by hoarding stuff, then sell at higher prices. Of course I don't like it, will just wait for the only possible end - that Learner slowly releases the stones, or that the floating mass (the amount that is actually on the market) rebuilds up from finds, drops, and shop purchases. Any change in price Learner can cause with a finite (albeit large) amount of money available is temporary (albeit long, possibly). I will adjust, the game is about adjusting to changes
adjusting to the changes is something we all do yes, but how we do it and the reasons we see the need for adjustment are all subjective.
However, I found this comment particularly amusing:
4.Remove rraisa from the game, she damages peoples perception of the free market. it no longer is a free market when price fixing occurs, and with rraisa, price fixing has occured by proxy.

Since, you know,

bleh, this has been covered before, the more direct the price competition is (and aggregating data does this), the more price becomes important, the more prices drop, and the harder it is for everyone else as well

This is just a random sample of a large amount of criticism Rraisa received, in her primes, by bot owners that were worried that she would have forced fierce competition among bot owners, pushed prices down, reduced margins to 0, and thus destroy the economy.

Now you tell me that Rraisa is pushing prices up, making sales impossible, and thus destroy the economy.

I didnt say Rraisa is pushing prices up, I said she damages peoples perception of the free market because she takes away player communication and replaces it with bot ownership rights to price fluctuations. I dont really care too much for algorythms and fancy mathematical equations when the evidence suggests to me that people use Rraisa as the yardstick as to what the price of an object is. By doing this the bot owners have a greater influence on the percieved market value than they would have if people still had to communicate with each other, or check the market channel for a price ( which is usually futile anyways because the price given to you is given after a quick search from rraisa :s )

In reality, she is doing neither: it is the humans (i.e., the players themselves) that set the prices, both on the selling and on the buying side. Market conditions change, and prices follow - prices are, after all, only the istantaneous agreement of two players that want to conclude a transaction.
I disagree, and I disagree because the very fact Rraisa is in place gives the overwhelming advantage to bot owners in setting pre determined prices and therefore sales. Example : Player A. Has no bot, makes great sword , tries to sell on market for $32kgc . Player B. Has bot, bot buys sword for 20kgc from idiot X, resells for 28kgc on market. Rraisa gives information out as to who has what price. Which person makes the sale ? Player A or B ?
Don't put the blame where it doesn't belong; right now in the game there is more demand for certain items than supply, so prices go up. It's not even greed, it's how free-market economies work.
people are banding around this phrase free market economy like it is EL's system. It isnt really, a free market economy does not rely upon God altering the influx of available items. A free market economy has rules in place that prevent/discourage price fixing between companies. In a free market economy prices tend to go down when theres more competition between sellers, not up , as has happened in EL. And you say the demand outstrips the supply? I disagree again, theres are apparently thousands of each rare item in the game at any one time and around 500 players, so no there is no shortage other than a shortage of logged in players.

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Auctually, the 50kgc price isn't to make money, I fully expect to lose money ... it to help encourage people to set the prices instead of bowing down to the bot price and complaining.

You're sure it's not just a scheme you and radu devised to increase shop sales?

So long as rostos are above 32kgc, and people are buying them, suddenly buying rostos from the shop and selling them is a better option than buying gc on the black market @ ~8kgc/US$1

 

:):brooding:

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HE's?

 

Where?

 

*whistles*

 

Piper

 

 

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Visit Karlin, your friendly trade bot, which will aways supply

you with high quality armor, tools and essences for a fair

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I feel no urge to debate and argue endlessly (and needlessly), will just try to explain myself better.

 

I didnt say Rraisa is pushing prices up, I said she damages peoples perception of the free market because she takes away player communication and replaces it with bot ownership rights to price fluctuations. I dont really care too much for algorythms and fancy mathematical equations when the evidence suggests to me that people use Rraisa as the yardstick as to what the price of an object is. By doing this the bot owners have a greater influence on the percieved market value than they would have if people still had to communicate with each other, or check the market channel for a price ( which is usually futile anyways because the price given to you is given after a quick search from rraisa :s )

Rraisa returns BOTH bot prices and "market" prices. If you want to sell a rosto for 15Kgc, just announce it on @3, and Rraisa will return your announcement to people seeking to buy a rosto (please include the word "rostogol" in it). No need to own a bot - although, of course, bots will post 24/7, while you might not. But if that is a problem, you should ask radu to remove bots from the game.

 

Don't put the blame where it doesn't belong; right now in the game there is more demand for certain items than supply, so prices go up. It's not even greed, it's how free-market economies work.
people are banding around this phrase free market economy like it is EL's system. It isnt really, a free market economy does not rely upon God altering the influx of available items.

Of course they do, it's called natural disasters, wars, famine, and the like. So, in a sense, God (chance, chaos, etc.) is altering the influx of available items in RL. Now, if you want to discuss whether God, or Chance, or Radu are more or less smart in reaching their goals... that's a different issue. :brooding:

 

A free market economy has rules in place that prevent/discourage price fixing between companies.

I was referring to a free market economy. You are talking of a regulated market economy (by definition, the latter has rules in place). When you have rules, it's not free anymore - just a technicality.

 

In a free market economy prices tend to go down when theres more competition between sellers, not up , as has happened in EL.

My memory is getting worse with age, but I remember tailors forming a cartel, and keeping prices up, then someone refused to join the cartel, started competition, and in less than a week prices were reduced to 1/4 of their previous value. Competition forced prices down. In EL.

As I noted in my previous post, manufacturers are blaming excessive competition for forcing their prices too low. In EL.

There is nothing in the EL system per se that impedes the operations of a free market (except for NPC prices, but that's a different issue - they stop prices from going too low or too high for certain items). Learner is just one of the forces in the market. You remember oil prices going to $200 per barrel, up from $70 per barrel, just because people was buying futures in oil, then selling them for more? And there was no dramatic change in demand, nor in production. Just market forces at work. After a while, prices went down again to their "physiologic" prices; bubbles like that on oil, or on housing, or on the .com's, or on credit cards... they all come back after some time. I guess the rosto bubble will burst as well.

 

And you say the demand outstrips the supply? I disagree again, theres are apparently thousands of each rare item in the game at any one time and around 500 players, so no there is no shortage other than a shortage of logged in players.

I think you should come to terms with yourself. If there are thousands of each rare item in the game, why do you blame Learner for buying a mere hundred? In reality, the floating mass (i.e., rostos available for sale) are few; 116 apparently. And we have around 500 players. Let's say some 300 of them would like to have 2-3 rostos each. Easy math. More demand than supply.

 

But as I said above, I did not want to cause any unneeded excitement, so feel free to stick to your opinion as I will stick to mine.

Edited by Usl

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i might just be reading between the lines here but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing says there are regulations to combat this even in capitalist societys ( pretty free market too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market )

 

funnily it says a controlled market

It is the opposite of a controlled market, where the government regulates prices or how property is used.

 

but I agree we should disagree USL , because aparently EL is a mixed economy with both aspects of freedom and control, so im wrong on alot of lvls about alot of things but about bots controlling the EL market ? if im wrong about that why did learner remove all these rostos from bot owners to force people to undercut them ?

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i might just be reading between the lines here but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing says there are regulations to combat this even in capitalist societys ( pretty free market too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market )

 

funnily it says a controlled market

It is the opposite of a controlled market, where the government regulates prices or how property is used.

 

Actually, it says:

A free market is a market without economic intervention and regulation by government except to regulate against force or fraud. The terminology is used by economists and in popular culture. A free market requires protection of property rights, but no regulation, no subsidization, no single monetary system, and no governmental monopolies. It is the opposite of a controlled market, where the government regulates prices or how property is used.
(emphasis mine), so I think the point raised above, regarding the difference between free market and regulated market, is established now. There is still a point debatable, i.e. whether what Learner did constitutes a use of force or fraud, against which there should be protection even in a free market. I would consider that there was no use of force (seller sold by their own accord, it's not like he got the stones from their storage - which, ironically, he could have done! :)), and that it was not a fraud either. In fact, even price fixing, with multiple sellers pushing prices up, is not by force, nor fraud (it's not illegal by our own rule set). Of course, one could think that there should be a rule against fixing market prices, but that would be very, very impractical to enforce, and probably do more harm than good. But as things are, we have no such rule.

 

It is of notice that price fixing (cartel) is not illegal in most of the world; the concept that it is a bad thing is only shared in US, Canada, Austalia and EU apparently; in other countries it is considered a common practice.

 

but I agree we should disagree USL , because aparently EL is a mixed economy with both aspects of freedom and control, so im wrong on alot of lvls about alot of things but about bots controlling the EL market ? if im wrong about that why did learner remove all these rostos from bot owners to force people to undercut them ?
Again, it's a matter of consistency. How can you say that bots control the economy, and then blame Learner - a player - for wreaking havoc? I would rather say that Learner controls the economy. :brooding:

Moreover, bots are mere tools, it's their owners that set prices. It is like saying that PMs control the economy, or channel 3 controls the economy... but no, those are just means people use to put buyers and sellers in touch. Bots are another such mean.

 

I think the problem you are raising is real, but blaming Rraisa, or bots, or #ignore_bots, or anything else technical is aiming at the wrong target. All decisions in this system are taken by players (and by Radu on the "natural supply" side). Human nature is what it is, most people would complain that what they want to buy is too costly, and yet try to make the greatest possible profit on what they sell. This is driving prices up. But market works both ways; if 50Kgc is too high for rostos (not because someone feels so, but because people don't buy them), then the price will get lower. But if people keeps buying rostos at 50Kgc, then Learner proved his point: people was complaining that 40Kgc was too much without reason ; in fact it was too low. Learner saw that the market price was low, and bought all of them. Was he right? Was he wrong? It all depends on how badly people wants that particular good, what amount of work or $$ they are willing to sacrifice to get them, and so on.

 

Personally, 30Kgc was already too much for me, but I never complained about rostos being too costly - instead, I stopped buying them, and tried to survive on those that me (and some guildie) could get from Mother Nature or the occasional Feros. As long as people keeps buying, it means they feel the need for rostos more intensly than the need for any other good that could be had for the same amount of money. In turn, this means the price is "right" for them, so to say.

In my case, I felt the need for 40Kgc more than I felt the need for a rosto, so I simply would not buy it (yes, I'm poor and conduct a miserable life in EL, harvesting and mixing myself, and I could never afford to powerlevel from level 8 to level 100 in a week like others do - but I'm perverse, I even get fun out of it :)).

How the majority of players feel about it determines the average market price - independently of any technical means. People is not stupid, they would find other ways to search for good bargains.

 

As a footnote, I have to acknowledge the influence of the Austrian school of Libertarian Economics on my thinking on such issues; you will find the link on the Wikipedia page you quoted above - von Mises' books on the subject are a fascinating and very enjoyable read, if you can devote some time to them.

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Ok, I am not going to reply to everyone by quoting them because there are too many people to respond.

So, first regarding the 20 bucks. It might come as a surprise to some people, but at my first job I made 80 bucks a MONTH. But then again, at that time I didn't have high speed internet. If 20 bucks make such a huge difference, as Nova suggested, then perhaps people should give up their high speed connection and get a second job, as many people do. And if someone got themselves into a situation where 20 bucks make a difference between life and death, they are not entitled to complain about other's economy.

 

I, like USL and a few others, am a firm believer in the Austrian school of economics. I am a Ron Paul supporter, and a libertarian. I know for sure that the prices will not stay at 50K for more than a few days. Most likely they will go back to 30K soon. All it takes is for others to buy rostos and sell them at 30K. Obviously, Learner can't keep buying an infinite amount because he doesn't have the GC to do it. And if others will keep buying and sell for 50k, then people will stop using them altogether until their price becomes reasonable. Or they can buy them directly from the shop, sell them for GC, then sell the GC back for USD, taking away the gold farmer's market.

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radu admits australia is the superior country ^^ cept for dutch & sweedish :D

 

edit: usl misspelled australia :>

Edited by Luigi

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I have read some (probably most) of the posts on this thread...

(1)I remember like some weeks back when AMAR did exactly that and tried to sell for 60k, people were like "omfg amar", now since its Learner most people say its ok;

(2)About free markets, etc, all the major economic crisis resulted in more regulation of market, not less. If you let it stays completely unregulated the economies just go crash and burn. Yaya, invisible hand and all that, blind believing in that resulted in 1929 depression;

(3)Yes, people have other options. . I was sick & tired of the rampaging inflation on EL, now we have people "speculating" over the price of stuff.

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I have read some (probably most) of the posts on this thread...

(1)I remember like some weeks back when AMAR did exactly that and tried to sell for 60k, people were like "omfg amar", now since its Learner most people say its ok;

(2)About free markets, etc, all the major economic crisis resulted in more regulation of market, not less. If you let it stays completely unregulated the economies just go crash and burn. Yaya, invisible hand and all that, blind believing in that resulted in 1929 depression;

(3)Yes, people have other options. . I was sick & tired of the rampaging inflation on EL, now we have people "speculating" over the price of stuff.

 

 

Not just speculating...

 

We are doing something about it.

 

http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=51775

Edited by PaulB

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Only reason i had the rostos for sale from Drunken at 30k was because the bots that bought rostos had a high price (28-29kgc each) on em and i sure as hell wont sell something low to see someone buy em and then sell to another bot and get a profit for it.

Only sold them for a lower price to members that i know wouldn't buy em and sell em to another bot for profit and thats the way i will continue to do with everything i sell thru Drunken only diffrence is that since there is bots buying rostos for 30-31Kgc each now the price on those will increase a bit when i get some on him.

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hmm i think rosto must sell for 32kgc ea :> why?

becouse some ppl sell gc 800kgc/100$ and ppl they dont buy anything from shop (rlly sux ) hmm radu he make this game and ppl go buy gc from ppl == radu get nothing ( rlly sux too ) so pls if u love this game EL and u want help dont buy from black market and buy rosto for 32k ea from bot +ppl w/o ( omg rosto 32k ) i have alot gc in game (not atm : > ) but rlly i buy from shop some times becouse i want make EL BETTER : >

((( SORRY MY ENGLISH BAD AND i drinking atm :) )))

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hmm i think rosto must sell for 32kgc ea :> why?

becouse some ppl sell gc 800kgc/100$ and ppl they dont buy anything from shop (rlly sux ) hmm radu he make this game and ppl go buy gc from ppl == radu get nothing ( rlly sux too ) so pls if u love this game EL and u want help dont buy from black market and buy rosto for 32k ea from bot +ppl w/o ( omg rosto 32k ) i have alot gc in game (not atm : > ) but rlly i buy from shop some times becouse i want make EL BETTER : >

((( SORRY MY ENGLISH BAD AND i drinking atm :) )))

 

I found someone to sell me a rosto for 25Kgc ^^

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Im so glad that learner did what he did... by doing so, the prices will stopp raising, and start dropping. i remember not so long ago when 20k was exspensive and it was easy to buy from bots for ~16-18kgc. Lets get back to those times!

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(2)About free markets, etc, all the major economic crisis resulted in more regulation of market, not less. If you let it stays completely unregulated the economies just go crash and burn. Yaya, invisible hand and all that, blind believing in that resulted in 1929 depression;

 

Yes, free market can lead to stuff liek that, but regulations won't help either. Sometimes the market just needs to adjust, and usually happens when people speculate too much.

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Interesting thread. My apologies for diverting from the most immediate concern of boycotting Learner, I do not understand his exact motives, but there are a couple recurring points made in relation to this that I would like to address.

 

First, while attempting to generate sympathy for your cause is understandable, it is disingenuous to say that noobs will be among those negatively-affected by this recent price hike. On the contrary, from everything I have witnessed, the average noob - who uses few (if any) rostos, and by contrast, shares at least an equal (if not greater chance) of finding a rosto on account of the relatively-high value of harvesting to the noob, (unlike those capable of farming yetis/drags/instances, making high level items in given skill for profit, etc.) - should be glad that their rare finds are now capable of giving them such a return in gc.

 

Secondly, for all those claiming that players are greedy who have chosen to follow Learner's lead and dramatically increase the price of their rostos, I am curious if you have ever purchased something, in game or otherwise, below the actual price you would have been willing to purchase it. Similarly, I am curious if you have ever sold something, in game or otherwise, above the actual price you would have been willing to sell it. In either case, did you graciously donate the remainder of what you would have actually paid/received to the buyer/seller? But perhaps you will say - our (greed?) has only been modest and our profit has only been marginal/reasonable. Okay, so you have chosen the warm, fuzzy feeling you were able to generate from these modest transactions over additional gc/cash/whatever. Fair enough, and I do not criticize that any more than those whose (greed?) is more substantial, but in any case - while I concede I have done no thorough analysis of economic trends, it seems to me that in a relatively-unregulated economy prices will have a tendency to approach slightly below the cost people are willing to pay for them. In this way both the buyer and seller feel they are getting something of a "good deal" (that is - paying less / getting more than they'd be willing to). Consider for example, the last time you visited given store... did you leave enthusiastic as hell about your amazing deal? Perhaps, in rare circumstances - you did, but typically you will likely have felt that you paid a reasonable price - and as such - you will be satisfied, nothing more. Thus far, as is evidenced by the prices people of late have been willing to pay for rostos - it has been what seems to me a "buyer's market", which is to say that buyer's who may have been willing to pay 35-50k were paying <30k for rostos (and complaining about that no less). If, after the initial shock of the price hike has subsided, prices drop dramatically - then one of two things will be responsible... either those attempting to change this recent trend will be significant enough to actually do so (unlikely), or the perceived value (the price people are willing to pay for rostos) will prove itself to be somewhat less than the presently-advertised rates. In any event, to criticize some people's degree of ROI is odd. Why should the price assigned to rostos/serpent stones/silver/etc. be X? Simply because it was X? And if, given player can make more than Y on X, why shouldn't he/she?

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if all ppl agree for rosto = 32k gc then i think rosto stay for 32k ea then PaulB u can buy for 32k not 25k :/ with this way we help market el and we help EL

 

if stay buy rosto for 25k = sux becouse no1 buy from shop :/

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if all ppl agree for rosto = 32k gc then i think rosto stay for 32k ea then PaulB u can buy for 32k not 25k :/ with this way we help market el and we help EL

 

if stay buy rosto for 25k = sux becouse no1 buy from shop :/

 

 

Where are these 25kgc rostos coming from then? Thin air?

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childish actions, both Learner's and the boycott. Personally i dont care much, just wont go to invasions for the time.

 

The market in EL is not robust against such things, because its way too small and chars have no real needs (and other things).

For example you could have a char that only harvests silver all day and then uses his GCs for some irrational market demonstration and spoils other players fun for some days....really good job.

Oh and full ACK with Nova, player community was really short of collective educational punishment the last days.

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Guys keep in mind this game is not only about economy...

 

If rosto prices goes up too high, much less people will have fun on invasions or with other activities (using decent weapon/armor against huge mass of monsters), so they may leave this game.

Working for days for a rosto and losing in 1 second is really not the thing what keeping players in the game. I remember to very good invasions from the past, and still missing that spirit nowadays.

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Guys keep in mind this game is not only about economy...

 

If rosto prices goes up too high, much less people will have fun on invasions or with other activities (using decent weapon/armor against huge mass of monsters), so they may leave this game.

Working for days for a rosto and losing in 1 second is really not the thing what keeping players in the game. I remember to very good invasions from the past, and still missing that spirit nowadays.

 

Rostogol prices will reamin on par with gc/dollar purchases. at about a rate of 8K/$

 

which = to about 30k gc's/rosto

 

Unless the altruistic people go shopping for rostos to make into gc's at el shop, the ones that woulds have spent that money anyhow will want the best gc's value they can get. Simple

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so let me get this straight, we are now saying that the GC selling market has the potential to start dictating in game market prices?

 

or where did we get the 8k:$1 ratio thing?

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Stop trying to "solve" what can't be solved.

 

@ateh: the ratio came from people that bought items from players in game. GC was getting sold for a year+ at 4k:1$ when rosto's were 15k so don't try and act like it's actually making a difference.

If people expect $->GC rates for their goods that's their decision. Radu made it harder for people to farm, look what happened. GC:$ rates went up from 4k-5k->1$ to 8k->1$. It's a lost cause.

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honest to god Liam i have and still really have absolutely no idea how much of the GC selling market goes on, what motivates it, how it changes in game prices or anything like that

 

I do find it wierd how people just seem to be sort of conceding that a group of players who must be in a minority ( the gc sellers ) can change the price of a rosto in game simply because they decide 1$ is worth 8kgc.

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If people expect $->GC rates for their goods that's their decision. Radu made it harder for people to farm, look what happened. GC:$ rates went up from 4k-5k->1$ to 8k->1$. It's a lost cause.

 

If you don't stop posting bullshit like this, you will take a vacation from the forums.

 

I do find it wierd how people just seem to be sort of conceding that a group of players who must be in a minority ( the gc sellers ) can change the price of a rosto in game simply because they decide 1$ is worth 8kgc.

 

This is bullshit. It has very little to do with the gold farming. The gold farming rate was the same for at least 1 year, and the rosto price was about 25 for quite a bit. The reason the cost increased is that people buy them, that's all.

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