Mages

[Starlite]

Lately if you have been in kf or indeed any pk map you may have noticed a LOT more mages. Is it too easy for them to get skills that give them ability to kill so quicky and therefore get easy drops? Many are now going invisible and attacking with the opponent haveing very little time to defend themselves. What is your view?

 

 

*edit* Dont mis-understand me here, I think mage skills are awesome and bring a lot to the game I just think that some aspects need to be slowed down and that harm is way to powerful when all you have to do is neg perk with little or no skill building. I simply want it open to discussion.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Starlite

[Mauler]

I absolutely think they are overpowered... i stopped playing for a few years with 100s a/d, get back, get harmed dead in 1 shot .. is that fair?? for some newb to up his reas/will and kill ppl that should have 60's p/c? its complete BS to me.

[Wizzy]

Well, rationality "harms" as well as it saves too'

 

Here are some ways to protect yourself,

 

will/reason pots, magic pots,

 

Warlock/cape of NMW

 

Bronze armors

 

Increase your own will/reasoning

 

Magic Immuntiy spells,

 

Invisability removal wards,

 

True Sight spell/pots

 

Halberds and other hard hitting weps, BP cloak/perk

 

There are tools avaible to you, probably some I missed,

 

maybe start employing someother tools in game, instead of Dragon armor/red cape combo and sit camped in kf

[chr0nik]

I think some mages train extremely hard to earn their skill and sacrifice what might be a better build for fighting in the long run to do so. I hate to lump all mages into the same category, but realistically, yeah, maybe it isn't so hot if you can neg out your char and train magic to 30s or whatever and harm for massive amounts of damage - that build wouldn't take long at all. I don't honestly know as I don't really pk or train on pk map spawns, yet.

[korrode]

Wizzy makes fine points.

The game provides much to help VS mages, especially the mage nullifying Magic Immunity spell.

 

My biggest qualm with mages is that they get to do their thing running around naked using just a few gc worth of essences and SRS.

I'm fine with the amount of damage Harm does, i just think that damage should NOT be achieved soley through magic level + rationality.

 

I'd like to see the harm calculation changed to do lower damage, and then some 'Mage Robes' and 'Mage Potions' added that give bonuses to Harm, and perhaps the SoM could provide bonuses too.

 

A mage wearing 'the Harm boost robe' and sinking the 'Sorcerer Potions' (100gc ea at NPC, not stackable, just like acc/eva) with a SoM equipped can Harm for the damage they do now, just at least their costs and expensive equipment breakage risk in PK would be a bit higher.

 

Fighters and Summoners already have very high costs, making the mages have some too seems fair

 

NOTE: I'm not saying the cost/risk for mages should be 'as high' as it is currently for fighters (the cost for no one should be that high >.>), just a bit higher than it is now.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Korrode

[Entropy]

Next update, the magic protection will offer more protection against the harm spell.

[Wizzy]

Wizzy makes fine points.

The game provides much to help VS mages, especially the mage nullifying Magic Immunity spell.

 

My biggest qualm with mages is that they get to do their thing running around naked using just a few gc worth of essences and SRS.

I'm fine with the amount of damage Harm does, i just think that damage should NOT be achieved soley through magic level + rationality.

 

I'd like to see the harm calculation changed to do lower damage, and then some 'Mage Robes' and 'Mage Potions' added that give bonuses to Harm, and perhaps the SoM could provide bonuses too.

 

A mage wearing 'the Harm boost robe' and sinking the 'Sorcerer Potions' (100gc ea at NPC, not stackable, just like acc/eva) with a SoM equipped can Harm for the damage they do now, just at least their costs and expensive equipment breakage risk in PK would be a bit higher.

 

Fighters and Summoners already have very high costs, making the mages have some too seems fair

 

NOTE: I'm not saying the cost/risk for mages should be 'as high' as it is currently for fighters (the cost for no one should be that high >.>), just a bit higher than it is now.

 

To be honest with you, I know my pk equipment costs a fair bit

 

I use Bronze set,

SoP

SoM

Warlock/nmw cape/ Mirror cape

MoL

Tit serp of magic

Crown of Mana (yep I am one of the few that use this little device in pk)

 

I drink will/reason/magic/envasion pots

 

I burn a lot of mana, so use emps.

 

Yes you can do the whole naked thing with a few esses, however, in my experince, you wont be very successfull in a map such as kf, especily if there are others "expecting" you. I try to survive as best I can, I dont like the underworld very much

 

I am also waiting patiently for the mage robes set in my store to have some stats so that I can use them in pk too.

 

Some draw backs of Mage build

 

Low emu, even if you take a lot of neg perks, At overall 120 I just made 540 emu,

Low p/c makes it dificult to train on higher mobs, especily with less then 80 a/d

So there are plus and minus, I think every one should remember, mages are a one trick pony. And I think many of us also eagerly await a few new aggresive spells,

[Lorck]

Next update, the magic protection will offer more protection against the harm spell.

We will have the opportunity to test it on test server before, plx? Edited September 13, 2009 by Lorck

[MagpieLee]

Ent you could just tweak the damage/heal formula so that it is just a tiny bit less on the rationality factor and add that tiny bit to the magic lvl factor.

Plus the fact that magic protection will add more protection towards it, it should swing things back into the "favour" of fighters. A fully negged alt with maxed out rationality and an average magic lvl can cause serious damage to anyone - provided they have little or no protection (disregarding astro effects of course).

 

Having said that, people will rarely cast magic protection, they'd probably use the items that give the passive effect of Magic protection because Magic Immunity rules all. Simple as that (it even rules vs monsters that have special attacks - how imba is that ? lool).

 

Seriously kids, learn to use Magic Immunity. You're protected 99.9% of the time with it on.

 

PS: Testing...should be done first

[Mauler]

Yep, i learnt to use magic immunity, dam right i did. I just find it really weird that low chars who've trained not even a quarter of the time i have, to be able to do such things.

Edited September 13, 2009 by kansle

[Miiks]

Lately if you have been in kf or indeed any pk map you may have noticed a LOT more mages. Is it too easy for them to get skills that give them ability to kill so quicky and therefore get easy drops? Many are now going invisible and attacking with the opponent haveing very little time to defend themselves. What is your view?

Yea it's really easy to get drops in KF nowadays...

 

And just use MI when you are in PK map. I'd rather say that spell is overpowered against mages.

[Ambrosius]

I don't consider smby with 50-60 magic and full will/reasoning a mage....how could he be with such a relatively low magic level?

It's a piece of cake to pump will/rationality...but getting a high magic lvl...training the skill... is much harder, time consuming and costly.

 

Imo the potency of your magic skills should be much more dependant of your actual magic lvl.

 

When i quit i had 88 magic lvl, full reasoning and some will. I harmed for 80-90.

In comparison: some "newb" with 60 magic and full reasoning/will harms for 150-160...

I always found this a weird concept...

Edited September 13, 2009 by Ambrosius

[robotbob]

I don't consider smby with 50-60 magic and full will/reasoning a mage....how could he be with such a relatively low magic level?

It's a piece of cake to pump will/rationality...but getting a high magic lvl...training the skill... is much harder, time consuming and costly.

 

Imo the potency of your magic skills should be much more dependant of your actual magic lvl.

 

When i quit i had 88 magic lvl, full reasoning and some will. I harmed for 80-90.

In comparison: some "newb" with 60 magic and full reasoning/will harms for 150-160...

I always found this a weird concept...

 

Because you are a Fighter|Mage hybrid build and he was a pure mage build.

Could he kill yetis+ like you could easily? Nope.

 

If its purely based on magic level and there isn't a PP commitment, we have

Strong 140ad fighters, harming for 120+, now that would be problematic.

[Ambrosius]

I didn't say purely...i suggested more dependant on magic lvl...

So for high damage you not only need high will/reasoning but also high magic lvl.

 

Edit: spelling

Edited September 13, 2009 by Ambrosius

[conavar]

MI FTW

 

As already being posted there are ways to defend yourself vs harm, but if you want to sit around chatting in KF and not use MI then its your own fault.

 

Its a PK map, not a social network site. There should always be an element of danger and risk, and should never be 100% safe.

 

But hey just nerf the mages and change the map name to Facebook field

[Dugur]

60's mag with maxed ratio does not harm 150-160 iirc.

The talk of omfg alt mage is a bit over estimated on dmg side, but that is a minor detail in overall picture.

 

Magpie already said it, MI protects you. Yeeeeees there are MI wards but they aren't really used due to not being worth using unless in TD and the opponent is in good gear and either clueless, cocky or stupid. And the wards are easy to avoid, too easy if you ask me.

 

When we got caps and magic got ratio dependent I was one of the first ones to take the "mage build." I was also one of the first to get some reputation with it. Those times KF was still a drop map and ppl hanged out in NCA. You did not have MI icons either.

For few weeks I managed to poof shit loads of bricks in NCA, but then suddenly everyone had MI. At least any decent PKer. Some ppl pmed me to see if I was online and ppl warned other to keep the MI. Point here is players bothered to cast and keep MI.

 

And now? KF is no drop, ppl like the topic starter idle at KF entrance holding hands. On death you lose nothing, most don't even bother to keep MI. On death they are boomerangs coming back. This wasn't the case when you had dropping KF. So why the hell is there talk of mages being unstoppable if there is no stopping attempt? Those "alt mages" who are "trained in a month" (lies) need three hits minimum to kill you. Being in KF with touchyfeely attitude in console mode editing the screenie you took of the oh so pretty thermal serp gets you killed, it doesn't take a mage to do it. A decent fighter with bronze+arrow kills you with same effectiveness even if you have MI on. You don't read a book when you drive a car.

 

Hulda is a nice place for yeti and acw. I have met ppl there that don't MI and the meeting used to be short. Often I didn't even come invis and still killed them. One laddie thought whining replaces MI, he lost few rostos to a mage coming visible and killing him. Result?

[PM from Gossip: _carelessyetiserper_ was last logged on about 55 days ago.]

So what the fuck? You see someone coming at you mile away - no MI?

 

If player base is careless it's not just "mage class" being overpowering. Those who are the sneakiest will always have the advantage and a mage needs that advantage to be succesful. Everything has their counters, you just need to use them.

 

Mage dealing too much damage for too cheap is amusing because you can get 100% immunity to that damage for half the cost. And if you say they come invis you are supposed to use TS = cheaper than invis. Counters ppl.

 

And to the OP part. Nerf as you please. It has been stated that rationality effect is ridiculously big. Then we have problem of top a/d suddenly dealing mage alt lvl harms. Or is it a problem? Those characters are a result of years training and millions spent on pp buying, they are supposed to be strong. And as mentioned above, everything has their counters. Decrease the effect of rationality. Lets say it together: NERF. If the player base has too big gaps lvl wise you either make a cap to the levels or something else. Example being a map where you enter makes you max 100 a/d and 70 magic for the time you are there. Doesn't remove the pp buying issue but does it not solve the problem of too wide lvl gaps? You still want to lvl to be able to do instances etc, but PKing will get a lot more popular.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Dugur

[Miiks]

The fighters with maxed p/c are overpowered! Let's think... Someone with 80's a/d (or even lower. That was just an example) and maxed p/c can easily kill 140's a/d person who has 4/4 p/c. Let's decrease the effect of p/c and make the a/d more important in fights!

 

I fully agree with dugur.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Miiks

[Light Lan]

If the player base has too big gaps lvl wise you either make a cap to the levels or something else. Example being a map where you enter makes you max 100 a/d and 70 magic for the time you are there. Doesn't remove the pp buying issue but does it not solve the problem of too wide lvl gaps? You still want to lvl to be able to do instances etc, but PKing will get a lot more popular.

yes plx

[Starlite]

Lately if you have been in kf or indeed any pk map you may have noticed a LOT more mages. Is it too easy for them to get skills that give them ability to kill so quicky and therefore get easy drops? Many are now going invisible and attacking with the opponent haveing very little time to defend themselves. What is your view?

Yea it's really easy to get drops in KF nowadays...

 

And just use MI when you are in PK map. I'd rather say that spell is overpowered against mages.

 

or indeed any pk map Of course kf is no drop, but last time I looked TD wasn't. If I were to go to TD of course I would use MI and cast TS.

Dugur I also believe that if you read my post correctly you will see that I was asking questions and asking for your views about levels required etc. not making personal comments. I have heard so much chat regarding this matter but nothing open for discussion in the forum. I admire anyone in any skill that has done the hard work to level.

[Miiks]

or indeed any pk map Of course kf is no drop, but last time I looked TD wasn't. If I were to go to TD of course I would use MI and cast TS.

Dugur I also believe that if you read my post correctly you will see that I was asking questions and asking for your views about levels required etc. not making personal comments. I have heard so much chat regarding this matter but nothing open for discussion in the forum. I admire anyone in any skill that has done the hard work to level.

Do you think there is anyone in any other PK map nowadays than in KF?

[Starlite]

Yes of course, or havent you heard Yetio and Yasacrus and others saying all the drops they scored in channel 6.

TD is alive and well I think

*edit* also nca has been popular lately

Edited September 13, 2009 by Starlite

[Miiks]

Yes of course, or havent you heard Yetio and Yasacrus and others saying all the drops they scored in channel 6.

TD is alive and well I think

*edit* also nca has been popular lately

Wtf? O.o Miracle has happened then while I was away from game

[Wizzy]

I don't consider smby with 50-60 magic and full will/reasoning a mage....how could he be with such a relatively low magic level?

It's a piece of cake to pump will/rationality...but getting a high magic lvl...training the skill... is much harder, time consuming and costly.

 

Imo the potency of your magic skills should be much more dependant of your actual magic lvl.

 

When i quit i had 88 magic lvl, full reasoning and some will. I harmed for 80-90.

In comparison: some "newb" with 60 magic and full reasoning/will harms for 150-160...

I always found this a weird concept...

 

My p2p just expired, so it has been about 1.5 years since I started Wizzy

 

Wizzy is not my first charater, and I have been roaming these EL for over 3 years, maybe close to 4 now.

 

Since I started Wizzy, I have invested more time/gc's for my 62 magic level then when I started jumpy charater who made 110 defense in about 1 year from creation. Making gc's is not that easy when you need HoS, Anti, etc just to pump up that emu to a cool 500. As for a max ration with good astro, and w/r/m pots, I still cant harm players for 150.

 

As for someone starting a new char and in a month terrorizing kf? Not possible, unless, serious EL shop investment takes place.

 

And it is not our fault that people maybe too slow, I pked people when I could only harm for 50 points, And I know Dugur/Magpielee have done the same.

To be honest, for some people, all the magic protection in the world wont help some people, Some people just lack the pk skills or the foresight to use items avaible in game to protect them.

 

I remember long ago, people hanging out at merc spawn would often get attacked with Brod's from an invisable pker.

 

another oldtimer used to summon fluffy from invisable/attack. The point is the element of surprise.

 

Conavars point about facebook map is a good one, What do you expect if your sitting unprepared in a map. It would be no different then someone showing up with attack bless/ boost potted and dealing loads of damage with a bronze swrod/bp combo.

[Dugur]

Yes of course, or havent you heard Yetio and Yasacrus and others saying all the drops they scored in channel 6.

TD is alive and well I think

*edit* also nca has been popular lately

Wtf? O.o Miracle has happened then while I was away from game

 

Not really. Alive and well would mean when you go in TD you'd meet someone at least after an hour of wait. It's different to tell of loot on @6 to get someone interested to come there to be looted than actually experiencing a real l00tgasm there. It's dead.

[Chosen]

Mages don't matter in KF, it's ND.. And people who train PK maps, just keep mini map open, and have MI essies..

 

It's not rocket science