PvE/PvP weapons and armors multiplier

[Entropy]

Here is an idea:

How about we have a multiplier (which can be negative as well) for weapons and armors attributes, such as damage and defense, depending on who it is used against.

For example, the weapons could have a -10% 'bonus' when used in PK, and the armors a -15% 'bonus' for PK, but when fighting the monsters the damage/protection would be the same as it is now (no multiplier).

 

This multiplier could be set per weapon (for example a bronze sword could do -20% damage when used in PvP), while an orc Slayer could have a -5% multiplier.

Or it can be set globally, as in all the weapons do -10% less damage for PvP, and all the armors do -15% protection on PvP.

 

Let us discuss this idea, and if there are positive comments we might have a poll about implementing it.

[asgnny]

Is it possible to modify the break chances for PvP vs. PvE? e.g. for PvP, bronze sword break rate goes back to its revised "original" 1/25 chance?

[korrode]

[radu @ 6]: so far, you didn't give me a satisfactory solution for nerfing the bronze sword and the armors

[Korrode @ 6]: there was one thing suggested not long ago, that is along the lines of your post in gen chat Radu..

[Korrode @ 6]: that you might find satisfactory..

[Korrode @ 6]: it was along the lines of lowering the drag armor armor bonus to be more like Ti, but giving it +X <type> bonues, and replacing some of the damage high level

[Korrode @ 6]: mobs do with that type of damage

[radu @ 6]: find the post

What i described as how i thought it was is not exactly right, and more complex than it needs to be.

 

I'm sure this concept was touched on somewhere else too, but i only found this:

Good point kadlub, mabye +dmg on all opponents wearing atleast 1 part of dragon armor, and no diffirence against other opponents. Mabye there will be programming issues to implent this tho...

That shouldn't be a problem. It can be handled like fire/ice damage against metal armors. Dragon damage versus dragon armors, but don't add that name to the info

 

To finalise this concept into a suggestion:

 

Implement a new type of damage (like heat/cold/magic), for the purpose of this example i'll call it "Human Damage".

 

Give all the Great Swords +1 Human damage (or alternatively they could be an enhanced/PK version of the Great Swords that have this '+1 human dmg', so long as it's not dear to imbue the original great sword and the break rate is low).

 

Give each dragon armor piece a small Human Damage neg, probably -1 on all pieces, except torso, -2 on that.

(That's based on the assumption that a weapon with +1 Human dmg hitting someone with armor that has -1 human damage would result in 2 'extra' (human type) damage received.)

 

This way the dragon armors remain the same for PvE, but not OP VS great swords in PvP.

Since those drag armors still have all kinds of other protections (heat/cold/mag_prot/mag_resist), and the PvE value would be the same, their overall value shouldn't be affected much.

Also, this way the Great Swords dont become OP for PvE, which you said was a concern.

 

Sorry if you'd have preferred i started a new topic than post this here, but i figured it was on-topic.

 

EDIT:

The above is a solution for the armors, as for the bronze sword... all i can suggest is change it's damage to be like 40-50 (instead of 50-70).. other than that all i'd suggest is to remove them from the game, which i think is the better solution, but obviously you dont like.

 

EDIT2:

Another benefit of this is that it would mkae the Bronze Armor much more desirable for PK'ing... i was almost going to argue that the Bronze Armor would then be OP for PK, but ofc, there's always the thermal serp which rapes bronze armor... so if people start using bronze in PK to replace the drag armor, owning a thermal serp would become essential for a competitive PK'er... which is US$90 in your pocket for each therm serp sale this might create ^^

Edited September 10, 2009 by Korrode

[SenZon]

That actually sounds very good, very good indeed.

[Lorck]

I think its a very nice idea, because it fixes the "competitive pk" problems without messing around with monsters and the other skills.

[Raz]

Superb idea

[elg3neral]

[Dilly]

I think its a very nice idea, because it fixes the "competitive pk" problems without messing around with monsters and the other skills.

 

agree

[Entropy]

Are you guys talking about my idea or Korrode's idea? They are somewhat similar, except that mine is more flexible and generic.

[Lorck]

Both ideas are ok, but i think the multiplier one is best.

[Chosen]

It's a nice idea, but just reducing the damage/damage taken, isn't going to do a whole lot IMO.. People will still use bronze swords, and they will be almost the same.

 

I recently tested a fight with 2 top10 accounts (test server.) both of 140s A/D, and 40+ P/C/R/I, and +30 Vit.. Using ice sets + great swords.. And, all that happened was the person with the most HE/SRs won the fight. (Other dissed and tele, or so.) Which is boring.. Then switched to both using bronze swords, and with in about 2 restores, one died due to mirror + crit hit. (~150hp gone in about 2 seconds.) making it to short.

 

Anyways, I guess testing out some new idea's on how to improve/fix the situation, is only a good thing.

 

(Maybe some tests should be done on test server, for more information.)

 

#Edit - Maybe increasing the caps, would have some effect on the PK.. With removing bronze swords (Or changing them.) people will have increased Might, making the Great Swords more affective in PK... Just something else to think about..

Edited September 10, 2009 by Liquid

[Lorck]

People will still use bronze swords, and they will be almost the same.

But the difference between the swords in pk would be lower.

making the Great Swords more affective in PK...

And that is not the whole point of the idea?

 

I recently tested a fight with 2 top10 accounts (test server.) both of 140s A/D, and 40+ P/C/R/I, and +30 Vit.. Using ice sets + great swords.. And, all that happened was the person with the most HE/SRs won the fight

Yeah, yeah, the drag armors are pr0...

 

Btw, the game is about pk, but not ONLY about pk. It would be insane to increase the PKers fun decreasing the fun of everyone else by messing with the economy or the trader skill system.

Edited September 10, 2009 by Lorck

[robotbob]

I love the idea (Entropy's Original).

The idea that some weapons could have bonuses or negatives based on

what it is facing, makes perfect sense, great for PvE (PvP). When I started playing, I thought

(before I bought one) that an Orc Slayer would have bonuses to kill Orcs faster. This is obviously

wrong but with a system like this, this could be true.

 

In another game, now long gone, but being D&D like, slashing weapons failed against plate armor, but

piercing weapons would tear through it, and so on. It created a wonderful tactical planning about what weapon

you should use against what armor\defense.

 

Obviously to make the >> Dragon Blade << the weapon it should be, it should have bonuses against Dragon based Armors.

And so on, sounds like a wonderful idea, I'm glad it got a '2nd chance'.

 

(Hell even a bonus against dragons themselves, cut a diamond with diamonds kinda thing.)

[hussam]

As long as armor and weapons have the same effect on monsters as it is now, it's a good idea.

[Starlite]

I prefer the idea of implementing this per weapon. It would be easier then to tweak the OP and reduce any so-called unfair advantages. (At the moment the bronze sword is powerful but breaks easily, therefore, the players with less gold coin at lower levels do not buy them) One other thing is will this be level dependant? The weaker you are the harder this will affect you, but the the stronger you are the effect of the loss would be less noticiable. If you lose 10%-15% at 80 or 90's a/d it would affect you much harder than losing the same amount at 130-140's a/d. These ideas of mine are just to add more to this discussion and are something to think about.

[korrode]

On Radu's original idea, if we're going to go that route:

This multiplier could be set per weapon (for example a bronze sword could do -20% damage when used in PvP), while an orc Slayer could have a -5% multiplier.

Or it can be set globally, as in all the weapons do -10% less damage for PvP, and all the armors do -15% protection on PvP.

I definitely think that it needs to be per item, not just one percentage for all weapons, and one percentage for all armor.

 

Initially, i'd start with just:

 

-18% to all 3 types of dragon armor.

-100% to the bronze sword.

-25% to the bronze sword

 

I'd actually like to see a bigger reduction on the bronze sword (like 40%), making it pretty well useless for PK... but i'm guessing Radu wouldn't go for it...

 

EDIT:

I'd also like to add that i'd expect Radu's idea would make it easier for him, once the system is implemented, to make additional changes down the road (rather than having to modify the stats of many items, he'd just have to modify the percentage multiplier of fewer items), so probably best to go with his method... as either way, the same goal is achieved.

 

The only downfall with it i can see is that new players won't realise the PvP equipment multiplier is in effect until they are told, where as with mine looking at the stats of equipment would make it clear why their dragon armor and Ti plate armors provide similar protection against melee damage in PK... and mine is perhaps a bit more role-play friendly.

 

(this has already been illustrated by some people not understanding Radu's idea off the bat, but understanding mine.)

Edited September 11, 2009 by Korrode

[Inglor]

Multiplier Idea would be good

AttilaTheHun

[Entropy]

The only downfall with it i can see is that new players won't realise the PvP equipment multiplier is in effect until they are told, where as with mine looking at the stats of equipment would make it clear why their dragon armor and Ti plate armors provide similar protection against melee damage in PK... and mine is perhaps a bit more role-play friendly.

 

I am sure that once they get to the a/d levels required for PvP (even for arenas) they will get it.

[conavar]

This multiplier could be set per weapon (for example a bronze sword could do -20% damage when used in PvP), while an orc Slayer could have a -5% multiplier.

Or it can be set globally, as in all the weapons do -10% less damage for PvP, and all the armors do -15% protection on PvP.

 

Would summons get the same minus % dmg modifier, since if you reduce all armour protection by -15% for example, wouldnt high end summons become to OPed ?

[ProHibited]

Weapons and Armor having different stats on mobs/human enemies sounds weird... It just doesn't make much sense to me. Messing around with armor bonuses/penalties (Korrodes idea) makes more sense to me.

Both ideas will probably improve PvE/PvP wherever is needed.

 

A completely different idea, to address PvP (& PvE...) is to increase the damage inflicted as the fight progresses.

This can be done two ways;

-Increase the damage dealt (+0.5?) every ROUND or HIT op to some maximum value.

-Decrease the armor modifier (-0.5?) every ROUND or HIT until zero armor bonus is left or a maximum value has been subtracted.

The first option will be desired for someone/something being attacked in multi-combat.

The second option will be desired for the attackers engaging someone/something in multi-combat.

 

Increasing damage dealt every time you inflict damage stimulates the use of low damage/high accuracy weapons in the beginning of a fight.

Decreasing armor every time you get hit does the same... Also makes multi-combat more effective.

 

When you disengage/flee/die the modifiers are set to zero of course.

Still keeps you from dying in the first ~10 seconds but makes sure the fights do not last 5 minutes (unless you dis/flee like in training).

 

Role Playing: As you get more tired in combat you loose focus and receive more damage from your opponents. Keep in mind that your opponents also receive more damage from you as the fight progresses!

[XenaMT]

Expecting to get flamed here, but...

 

Not even sure if this is programmable or not, but possibly making books for each great sword, 2-handed weaps as a whole, fire/mag/etc swords, steel/tit/etc armours (not unlike the fighting books). If your opponent has not read the Orc Slayer book, for example, it would work with current stats, if s/he has then the 'bonus' multipliers kick-in. Makes it advantageous to read the books or you will get owned. They would have to be reasonably inexpensive (like 2kgc or w/e each) - nothing silly like 10k-100k. Could even have 1 or 2 as a yet-to-be-created quest reward (Pk quest?). But, a minor gc-sink none-the-less.

 

Roleplay Having studied various weapons and armour, you know how better to defend against (weapons) or use better (armour)

[hussam]

Expecting to get flamed here, but...

 

Not even sure if this is programmable or not, but possibly making books for each great sword, 2-handed weaps as a whole, fire/mag/etc swords, steel/tit/etc armours (not unlike the fighting books). If your opponent has not read the Orc Slayer book, for example, it would work with current stats, if s/he has then the 'bonus' multipliers kick-in. Makes it advantageous to read the books or you will get owned. They would have to be reasonably inexpensive (like 2kgc or w/e each) - nothing silly like 10k-100k. Could even have 1 or 2 as a yet-to-be-created quest reward (Pk quest?). But, a minor gc-sink none-the-less.

 

Roleplay Having studied various weapons and armour, you know how better to defend against (weapons) or use better (armour)

 

That's actually a brilliant idea. It adds yet another variable to combat. But I'd day make the books monster drops that are valued at ~4k each so that not everyone has the books instantly.

[MasterZen]

Can't help to think that this whole idea is gonna make the diff armors and weapons become more equal to eachother..

If for example:

 

The titanium armor helps u to absorb 20% of the damage

The dragon armor helps u to absorb 40% of the damage..

 

If u take the dragon armor 15% down the 2 armors are getting close to equal of eachother..

 

If u put in some extra new damage into the greatswords, korrode named it "human damage" then this weapons will get closer towards the thermal, magic etc weapons..

 

Not that they are becoming equal, but the dragon armor and the therm serp will become less "EBUL", so the money already spent on these armors will be a waste, since this changes would make them cheaper?

 

in the end it would not matter anymore, since all weapons and armor has it advantages (which is nice) but the gap towards actually competing in PK will become greater, since there is no armor nor weapon anymore which gives u a little advantage compaired to ur opponent..

 

I know that almost all pk'ers already possess most of the armors, so as a 80/90 a/d person will still get asskicked, but if u keep on reducing armors and weapons that used to make u compete more, it will be just suicidal to go into pk if ur not 120+ a/d..

While with the armor/weapon advances u could have a possibility to compete with just 100 a/d..

 

 

But like i said this is just a feeling i get when im reading the posts, it just gives me the feeling the gap to go into pk will only grow bigger?

[korrode]

It wont grow bigger, it will get smaller.

The idea is you will be able to go PK in cheaper gear (like Ti armors and great sword) and be reasonably competitive, reducing both the initial and on-going cost, and allowing a larger portion of the playerbase to partake in a more fun PK experience.

 

@Books idea

I don't like it, there's no point.

It'll be something every single PK'er has to do, it'd just be another tedious task.

 

Lets just put in Ent's or my idea so we can get on with the more fun PK

Edited September 11, 2009 by Korrode

[groomsh]

You could change the damage dealt and the ability to dodge on your current health status.

 

Something like:

 

damage_dealt = damage_dealt * MIN ( 1, ( current_health / (max_health * 2 / 3)) )

(so if your health drops below 2/3 of your total health you'll start dealing lower damage)

 

Same formula for the chance to dodge.

 

Edit: fixed the formula and some typos

Edited September 11, 2009 by groomsh