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Holar

Manufacturing strike!

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The real problem I think is the price of special swords/armors. Some manuers are just producing stuff in bulk to try to get a special armor/sword. Even if you lose like 3-5k on some item when selling, you can easily earn that back when you make something special and sell it for 250-300kgc. With those proces you can easily produce 50 items at a loss and still make a profit in the long run.

Edited by Cycloonx

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The real problem I think is the price of special swords/armors. Some manuers are just producing stuff in bulk to try to get a special armor/sword. Even if you lose like 3-5k on some item when selling, you can easily earn that back when you make something special and sell it for 250-300kgc. With those proces you can easily produce 50 items at a loss and still make a profit in the long run.

And that mass production is increasing the cost of the rare ingredients, driving up the cost of other items as well.

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The real problem I think is the price of special swords/armors. Some manuers are just producing stuff in bulk to try to get a special armor/sword. Even if you lose like 3-5k on some item when selling, you can easily earn that back when you make something special and sell it for 250-300kgc. With those proces you can easily produce 50 items at a loss and still make a profit in the long run.

 

Holar stated that he produced 1 special from 178 swords. Using articape and mixing mainly on special day of increased rare chance. That is way off 1/50 chance unfortunately.

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The real problem I think is the price of special swords/armors. Some manuers are just producing stuff in bulk to try to get a special armor/sword. Even if you lose like 3-5k on some item when selling, you can easily earn that back when you make something special and sell it for 250-300kgc. With those proces you can easily produce 50 items at a loss and still make a profit in the long run.

And that mass production is increasing the cost of the rare ingredients, driving up the cost of other items as well.

 

 

That was what i was trying to say, people makes armors/weapons just coz of an order or just make a special one, and thats pretty high chance to make 1 special item out of 30 with arti cape, increased rare manu day and good astro (thats not so hard with the special day rate is now %15-20) And when they make a special one, they just sell the regular ones for cheap

 

Pretty simple

 

EDIT#

The real problem I think is the price of special swords/armors. Some manuers are just producing stuff in bulk to try to get a special armor/sword. Even if you lose like 3-5k on some item when selling, you can easily earn that back when you make something special and sell it for 250-300kgc. With those proces you can easily produce 50 items at a loss and still make a profit in the long run.

 

Holar stated that he produced 1 special from 178 swords. Using articape and mixing mainly on special day of increased rare chance. That is way off 1/50 chance unfortunately.

 

Thats his un-luckyness, i saw Sheitan's manu counters myself, that was actually ALOT more than 178/1 :)

Edited by Kaddy

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Thats his un-luckyness, i saw Sheitan's manu counters myself, that was actually ALOT more than 178/1 :)

 

Indeed :icon13:

 

Only way to really counter this kind of mass production is to lower the chance for special swords/armors A LOT (so you only get one by luck and not by producing tons of them).

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Thats his un-luckyness, i saw Sheitan's manu counters myself, that was actually ALOT more than 178/1 :icon13:

 

Indeed :)

 

Only way to really counter this kind of mass production is to lower the chance for special swords/armors A LOT (so you only get one by luck and not by producing tons of them).

 

 

Nope, higher their chance to produce but lower their strenght :) so they will make more special but will sell for slightly more than regular one, and they will make the profit they need, and they wont complain more

 

*Hopes to be broded again for making the $$$ guys weaker*

 

-Kaddy

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It is the increase in population. There are at lest 200 more regular players then there were 6 months ago.

 

I wonder how you come to this conclusion. Do you have any facts proving this?

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It is the increase in population. There are at lest 200 more regular players then there were 6 months ago.

 

I wonder how you come to this conclusion. Do you have any facts proving this?

Only if you add the bots to players.

When it's morning Europe, have I seen less players than bots online.

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pfft, there is like how many steel greaves ingame? and you wonder why you can't sell them? bah -,-

 

you can train almost anything in game with augs, i never really say the need for anything above iron armor, other then the fact for keeping the spawn longer.

 

manu augs, iirc they are profitable and won't matter if you mass produce them, atleast you will sell them for your "costs".

 

-bigk

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If I smelt a hydro bar from the ore I've mined and the s2es ive made, my cost is basically 0gc.

Actually your cost is not 0. You may have spent 0 gc but that is not the cost for making the hydro bar. What you have spent is not your cost - a common mistake for those not knowing economics.

 

Here something called opportunity cost comes in - you basically have two options:

- sell the ingredients

- make the item.

 

By not selling the ingredients - the hidden cost you have to make the item is the income you would have gotten by selling the ingredients.

 

You can read more about the concept here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

 

Note that Opportunity cost is basically what this thread is about - people don't know about concept and thinks items they make cost nothing while items actually cost a lot so they sell items for a loss.

Edited by Silvatica

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fact is with manu items that need hydro / wolfram / binding / serp / efe --- the prices dont reflect ing' costs and the games top manuer finally got pissed with it

there are some crafting items like COL & COM , that also need re pricing most likely

 

but simple truth is end product prices need re thinking due to ing costs these days

 

it makes NO sense whatsoever to keep mixing things that sell at a loss because EL community wont accept that base ings have risen in cost

 

end product prices should at least be in line with cost, that goes for all items , to have it any other way is silly

 

you make a great sword and sell it for 24k which is STILL a 4-5k loss , imagine if you make 100 great swords youve just gone and lost yourself half a million EL GC , thats ALOT of fucking hours at the lupine bush and it NEARLY ever so nearly makes me want to make a pie chart to show you how frustrating it is

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I have to fully agree with the strike.

 

I did manu for about 7 months to get to the point of making my own tit/steel armor.

but when I realized how MUCH it costs to make the armor compared to how much I make, it's ridiculous.

 

I ended up purely making armor for me to use.

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fact is with manu items that need hydro / wolfram / binding / serp / efe --- the prices dont reflect ing' costs and the games top manuer finally got pissed with it

there are some crafting items like COL & COM , that also need re pricing most likely

 

but simple truth is end product prices need re thinking due to ing costs these days

 

it makes NO sense whatsoever to keep mixing things that sell at a loss because EL community wont accept that base ings have risen in cost

 

end product prices should at least be in line with cost, that goes for all items , to have it any other way is silly

 

you make a great sword and sell it for 24k which is STILL a 4-5k loss , imagine if you make 100 great swords youve just gone and lost yourself half a million EL GC , thats ALOT of fucking hours at the lupine bush and it NEARLY ever so nearly makes me want to make a pie chart to show you how frustrating it is

100 JS"s? your bound to get more then 1 JSOC, which in terms is your 1mgc+ with profit.

 

btw, plx make leather boots of fast regen, aug pants of body piercing and aug torso of conjurer.

edit: btw there is much better fetishes then pie charts :]

Edited by bigkav

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If I smelt a hydro bar from the ore I've mined and the s2es ive made, my cost is basically 0gc.

Actually your cost is not 0. You may have spent 0 gc but that is not the cost for making the hydro bar. What you have spent is not your cost - a common mistake for those not knowing economics.

 

Here something called opportunity cost comes in - you basically have two options:

- sell the ingredients

- make the item.

 

By not selling the ingredients - the hidden cost you have to make the item is the income you would have gotten by selling the ingredients.

 

 

That might be all very well in the RL but doesnt factor in a "games" components.

 

Granted you might be able to sell X items ings for 29K and the item for only 20K , but if you collect the ings yourself that is 20K + Xp + the fun of doing something you want to do .

 

 

, imagine if you make 100 great swords youve just gone and lost yourself half a million EL GC , thats ALOT of fucking hours at the lupine bush and it NEARLY ever so nearly makes me want to make a pie chart to show you how frustrating it is

 

Why make 100 JS's (for example) when you know there isnt a market for that many ? all manuers are doing is saturating the market and forcing prices down.... Shooting yaself in the foot ftw :icon13:

Edited by conavar

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If I smelt a hydro bar from the ore I've mined and the s2es ive made, my cost is basically 0gc.

Actually your cost is not 0. You may have spent 0 gc but that is not the cost for making the hydro bar. What you have spent is not your cost - a common mistake for those not knowing economics.

 

Here something called opportunity cost comes in - you basically have two options:

- sell the ingredients

- make the item.

 

By not selling the ingredients - the hidden cost you have to make the item is the income you would have gotten by selling the ingredients.

 

You can read more about the concept here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

 

Note that Opportunity cost is basically what this thread is about - people don't know about concept and thinks items they make cost nothing while items actually cost a lot so they sell items for a loss.

 

You've got to be kidding...my laugh for the day :icon13:

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Lol, this wont make any difference anymore, maybe before because there was a lack of Manufacturers, lots of people have +50 Manu now, this wont work. But I wish you the best with it. ^^

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If I smelt a hydro bar from the ore I've mined and the s2es ive made, my cost is basically 0gc.

Actually your cost is not 0. You may have spent 0 gc but that is not the cost for making the hydro bar. What you have spent is not your cost - a common mistake for those not knowing economics.

 

Here something called opportunity cost comes in - you basically have two options:

- sell the ingredients

- make the item.

 

By not selling the ingredients - the hidden cost you have to make the item is the income you would have gotten by selling the ingredients.

 

 

That might be all very well in the RL but doesnt factor in a "games" components.

 

Granted you might be able to sell X items ings for 29K and the item for only 20K , but if you collect the ings yourself that is 20K + Xp + the fun of doing something you want to do .

 

The old make items because they are fun thinking manufacturer should be happy that they can make items and not complain that they make the items at a loss ?

 

Yeah I've heard that a lot - mostly from those that want to buy items cheap.

Personally I agree with the threadmaker and will refuse to sell any items

- manufacturing/alching/crafting for less that basic ingredience costs.

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The old make items because they are fun thinking manufacturer should be happy that they can make items and not complain that they make the items at a loss ?

 

Yeah I've heard that a lot - mostly from those that want to buy items cheap.

 

No .. FUN is the fundemental part of a Game, loads of players lose money by doing things they find fun (ask any pker), if people are only playing a game to make profit, then something is wrong imo

 

(Im not saying they shouldnt make a profit, but chucking rl economics about is pointless since it doesnt include all factors)

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The old make items because they are fun thinking manufacturer should be happy that they can make items and not complain that they make the items at a loss ?

 

Yeah I've heard that a lot - mostly from those that want to buy items cheap.

 

No .. FUN is the fundemental part of a Game, loads of players lose money by doing things they find fun (ask any pker), if people are only playing a game to make profit, then something is wrong imo

 

(Im not saying they shouldnt make a profit, but chucking rl economics about is pointless since it doesnt include all factors)

You think PK is fun, maybe other think manuing without loss is fun.

I play games to have luck.

After we get less stones and make less rare now,do I not play as much as I used to.

And I stopped manuing long time ago.

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Good job, Holar!

 

I remember years ago, when my King (Crannog) was #1 manuer here, he stood up just like you..and most supported him then too, same reason. There must be a topic somewhere, if I find it, Ill post the link.

 

For now, stand your ground, Holar, and the rest will folow!

 

Jez

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You think PK is fun, maybe other think manuing without loss is fun.

 

So you cant make anything under the manu skill that makes a profit ?

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About my counters:

 

with some items i was very lucky recently indeed, but before that "run" started, i havent made ANY special for over 10 months.

 

About chances:

Once had 2 SGoUD in a row, once had 2 OSoMNs in 5 tries. But for example had only 1 JSOC in about 1k JS (most of them made when ings were cheaper, so there was no big loss on each), and never had special version of some other items.

 

I do not make 5,10,20 of same items at once, i only make what i need to restock bot and to have 1-2 spare sets in storage

 

About exp:

I do not get my exp with those items, I level with s2es (probably more than 80% of my manu exp)

 

When someone was arguing about high prices (low, but higher than some sellers), i offered possibility to trade for ings. Less than 10% people is willing to do that... So now - pay fair price, or buy elsewhere. Or make your own :icon13:

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it honors you both, that you defend your guildie here, but i dont have anything against Holar nor against that he will sell his stuff no longer for too cheap a price, in fact i dont care too much for anyones prices, because i know that it will not matter much to the market.

 

Lightlan is absolutely correct in that, manuers are the ones who are to blame, noone else. In every skill you pay for exp (or rare products), we covered that extensively in all the long economy threads.

 

You have no idea, really. Basicly, you are saying, that 1000xp points for great sword (grossly approximated) is worth 8kgc a loss? Hell, you can make 20 leather helms for more xp and with loss of a 100gc. And the price of rare products DO NOT COVER EVEN PARTIALLY, the huge loss here.

No i dont say that at all. You seem to understand wrong what i'm saying.

Your example describes a completely different problem btw, one where i could agree with your point.

 

2) Gilrain did you even stop to think about what you wrote? did you read all that posts? because it looks like if you saw that the swords aren't going to be cheap and started whining...

yes in fact i have read many posts and this whole thread. I dont care for the price of a great sword, i've bought 2 so far and dont even remember the price of them. If they cost 22k i buy them for 22k, if they cost 30k i buy them for 30k.

And in contrast to some people here, i dont postulate a price, and postulating a price is what i think is ridiculous.

If someone sells large swords for 20k it is his right to do so. Everyone of us plays with different goals and strategies here, so blaming someone who sells cheap is just lame.

 

The particular thing that i meant with being #1 is the following: if i would decide for myself today, that i want to be #1 in manufacturing by end of 2009, then i maybe invest all my spare goldcoins for this goal.

I would bet with you, that i will have a higher manu level at the designated time, if i sell my products for prices below ingredient sum. If i insist on selling for a price that is not below ingredients sum, then i will simply have a lower manu level in the end.

Is there anyone who really doubts this ?

 

regards

Edited by Gilrain

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Hello all,

 

Selling stuff at a loss is not fun. I'm only level 27 manufacturing so my decisions don't affect much; I only manu stuff for myself. Holar has made a very sensible decision. Just a couple nights ago, I heard another high level manufacturer say that he will no longer mix things regularly because he loses too much gc on the ings, or too much time harvesting the ings.

 

The problem with a market is supply and demand. If things sell below cost of production, either the supply must decrease or the demand must increase.

 

In EL we have infinite resources and limited demand. This isn't necessarily the case with high level items because they depend on rare drops (serpent, binding, enrichment stones, EFEs, EMEs, etc.). However, these can be bought from the EL shop, so for the purpose of my post, I'm going to treat these as if they were infinite resources.

 

What limits the supply of high level items, is the number of people mixing them. Not everyone has uber levels to mix things with. If the loss due to market price becomes too extreme, people will quit mixing: Holar and the other high level manu-er. This decreases supply and eventually the price will rise some. Will it rise enough? I have no idea.

 

What about demand? Radu said that he is going to double the break chance for great swords. Currently about one breaks per day. Will breaking two a day significantly increase demand? I have no idea.

 

If neither of these two results are enough, there is another option. We have infinite supply, radu could create infinite demand: an NPC who buys the surplus. If people are mass producing these things and they don't CARE whether they take a loss, then having an NPC who buys at a lower than cost price might be an option that they would consider (same as Trik). It's an always online demand, it doesn't fill up like bots do, and the items don't wind up sitting in the manu-ers storage. Would this be a viable solution? I have no idea.

 

Feel free to pick apart my input. As I said, I don't know whether these ideas are correct or not. I'm just an Elf who likes to mine.

 

The_Saxman (Jayim_Duinara)

Member of Ozú!

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