Ambrosius Report post Posted February 7, 2009 As everybody knows dragon helms aren't used much. Most likely due to the fact that a CoL gives a much higher health bonus. Sure, dragon helms give a mana and armour bonus aswell but not enough for players to pick them over a CoL. And they are right: a 150 Health bonus is worth more then a 20-25 health and mana bonus. It would make sence if they were at least comparable to a CoL as their ingredient cost is higher aswell. Suggestion: Red dragon helm: Armor: +4, +2 heat protection, +1 radiation and magic protection, +1 magic resistance, +90 life and +20 mana Black dragon helm: Armor: +4, +2 heat protection, +1 radiation and magic protection, +2 magic resistance, +100 life and +25 mana Ice dragon helm: Armor +4, +2 heat and cold protection, +1 radiation and magic protection, +2 magic resistance, +100 life and +25 mana This way they still give (considerable) less health then a CoL but to make up for that they have some other nice bonusses like extra mana, armour, heat and or cold protection. Gives players a bit more choice and strategy decisions. Ofcourse above the dragon helms and CoL would still be the Titanium helm of life with it's +3 armour and +150 health and the ubber Red dragon helm of life and mana with +4 armour, +170 health and +40 mana. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kalix Report post Posted February 7, 2009 Well then after this would be put in what use would col's have? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khalai Report post Posted February 7, 2009 Well then after this would be put in what use would col's have? Good point. It needs to be balanced, so neither CoL nor dragon helms will be left in storages as dustcatchers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ambrosius Report post Posted February 7, 2009 They would have enough use...this would just give ppl a choice depending on char build and/or strategy what they would use. Go full health, or sacrifice health for other bonusses like armour and extra mana. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cyprom Report post Posted February 7, 2009 Mixers using toadstools as food may easily prefer CoL over any helm (except for the Red Dragon Helm of Life and Mana..) There are plenty of non-fighters using CoL Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SenZon Report post Posted February 7, 2009 Dont think ppl would train with these so CoL would always have there use But no more uber items pl0x ... its hard enought hitting Dragon armor with os.js as it is :s Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Talixim Report post Posted February 8, 2009 This would just add to the armor that dragon armors have already but using helms more would be sweet. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
korrode Report post Posted February 8, 2009 (edited) This would just add to the armor that dragon armors have already but using helms more would be sweet. Yeah... making it so people can have even more armor bonus is not good. Already a group of low levels that need to use cutty to hit a single high level cant hardly do any damage... all this will do is add to all the other OP gear that turns people into 1 man armies. We got enough orange spam stuff, we got pp buying, we REALLY dont need more highly powerful equipment. A single 140's a/d'er shouldn't be able to kill 4+ 120's a/d'ers -,- ...of which they can already do, mainly cause of drag armor, dont make it worse pl0x. Edited February 8, 2009 by Korrode Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ambrosius Report post Posted February 8, 2009 (edited) I agree on the armour bonus, but thats why the armour (and mana) bonus comes with a considerable pay off in health. Instead of the ~280 health that most PKers have with CoL, it would be ~230 with dragon helm. In a normal fight with 4-6 restores thats a 200-300 health penalty, and the penalty will only get bigger as the fight lasts longer. On a different note: It's not just the dragon armours that cause the problem. It's also the low might (= low damage) players have now because of the attribute caps. People take and have more PP's available for vitality because op the caps aswell. There are chars out there with tank like thougness. All in all...the weapons (or armours) in EL could use some tweaking to adjust them to the new after-cap situation. and a bit offtopic: It depends on the build and oa of those 4 120 a/ders attacking the 140 one. The "problem" i see arround me is a lot of ppl with nice a/d but not the attributes (oa) to back it up. I've said it many times: a/d is nothing if you dont have the oa to back it up. I've never had a problem killing (much) higher a/d players when attacking in a group, but i've never compromised attributes in favour of training. Instead i've always looked for ways to get best xp with the stats i had. Edited February 8, 2009 by Ambrosius Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
korrode Report post Posted February 8, 2009 (edited) On a different note: It's not just the dragon armours that cause the problem. It's also the low might (= low damage) players have now because of the attribute caps. Yes but the low might wouldn't be such an issue if armors with such high bonus didn't exist. This is very clearly evident when i fight a stronger person in Ti armor VS Dragon armor. (i.e. See Jaclaw quickly throw his Ti set back in storage and swap to IDA after dying to a few Warlords in KF yesterday) (EDIT: and then see me who died to Jac and Incubus in my Ti plate be lent Black drag set by a guildie and then last some minutes solo with both of them on me... drag armor is such OP ) People take and have more PP's available for vitality because op the caps aswell. There are chars out there with tank like thougness. True, but anyone choosing a vitality path should (imo) be sacrificing the ability to hit and/or dodge (i.e. they'd have less pp's on reas/inst), and there'd be downfalls to their tank build that would make such builds still 'balanced'. Of course, the reason this doesn't always work in practice, and will get worse as the years go on, is because of pickpoint buying. These vitality tanks shouldn't have lots of pickpoints available for reas/inst... but some already do, and as time goes on, even more will. Eventually the 'par' for PK will be at least 5 attribs maxxed, and competitive PK with "EL's best" will be reserved only for people who've been playing for years and years and years. All in all...the weapons (or armours) in EL could use some tweaking to adjust them to the new after-cap situation. If Dragon armors are not going to be removed or have their armor bonus lowered to around that of Titanium armor, then i agree... an extra 5 or so damage on each great sword is a must... but doing this will have other undesirable side effects, lowering the armor bonus or dragon armor is a much better option. Edited February 8, 2009 by Korrode Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jaclaw Report post Posted February 8, 2009 (i.e. See Jaclaw quickly throw his Ti set back in storage and swap to IDA after dying to a few Warlords in KF yesterday)(EDIT: and then see me who died to Jac and Incubus in my Ti plate be lent Black drag set by a guildie and then last some minutes solo with both of them on me... drag armor is such OP ) I know it's offtopic but could you correct your post? It's missing the truth a 'bit'. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ambrosius Report post Posted February 8, 2009 Yes but the low might wouldn't be such an issue if armors with such high bonus didn't exist.This is very clearly evident when i fight a stronger person in Ti armor VS Dragon armor. I agree, hence my suggestion to give dragon helms a considerable health penalty compared to CoL: more armour, but comes with less health to balance that out: gives players more options and brings more diversity in the game. Imo it's a shame that a potential nice item doesn't get used. True, but anyone choosing a vitality path should (imo) be sacrificing the ability to hit and/or dodge (i.e. they'd have less pp's on reas/inst), and there'd be downfalls to their tank build that would make such builds still 'balanced'. Not neccesarily: The problem is that most Pkers already have a more or less tank build compared with before the caps. Before the caps taking vitality wasn't very populair. It's a lot more interesting to take it after the caps. In comparison: before caps taking ~10 damage of a hit wasnt very helpfull because ppl could hit a lot harder, now after caps with the capped might its a lot more interesting to try and reduce the already much lower damage: you can reduce a much higher % of the hit now. Anybody with 20 vit (situation after caps) is already a lot more "tank" like then somebody with 20 will (situation before caps). The "tankers" that take even more vit in an attempt to try and reduce even more (or all) damage will have to sacrifice some PP's for instinct or reasoning...thats true, but they get a much better trade off now in comparison to the situation before the caps. All in all i see 3 causes for the low PK dmg: -low might -higher thougness (as a result from caps) -dragon armours Solution would be : tweak the damage of the swords, or indeed, tweak the armour rating of the drag armours. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
korrode Report post Posted February 8, 2009 (edited) I know it's offtopic but could you correct your post? It's missing the truth a 'bit'. Um... you were harvesting in very weak armors, HoS'd to KF, fleed off us all and got out (pr0 flees btw), then u came back in Ti plate, that proved unsucessful, then you came back in Ice drag armor... iirc anyways. (EDIT: Then you came with Ambro+Sia+Shaolin and still had Incubus helping you, so we, not actually having deathwishes, left :>) @Ambro Well, i've fought Vit tanks around my levels and they last a good while, sure, but they cant hit me well and i can hit them with OS+stars, so they still take reasonable damage... usually i win. I see where you're coming from though, and for the most part, we agree. Edited February 8, 2009 by Korrode Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathanstenzel Report post Posted February 11, 2009 (edited) Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a person's "tank" stats mean squat for break rates if they can't dodge a hit? High vitality is one way of reducing damage. Armor is another. If the person gets hit though, they can lose their armor. Insinct and coordination are what reduce break rates per block attempt, by my understanding. Hitting hard and hitting more frequently reduce break rates on the whole by reducing the amount of time the opponent is alive and capable of breaking your armor. Personally, I am a misfit and actually use my plain old red dragon helm. I use it for fighting and I use it and a MoL for mixing on toads. Alot of these people wear CoL because they Plan on getting hit alot and having to restore. I would rather prevent it, so I use the red dragon helm's armor bonus. I think alot of the choice of moon medallion+CoL vs unicorn medallion+helm boils down to if the person prefers the quick kill and gobble up the spawns or the slow kill and share the spawns aproach. Which are you? Fast killer or slow killer? I prefer slow myself. Edited February 11, 2009 by nathanstenzel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
korrode Report post Posted February 12, 2009 (edited) Using a helm instead of a CoL in training is a huge waste of HE/SRS for most char builds so long as your restore is half decent. If a person is a 'phys-ball' with no reas, and their restore is a fair bit less than their total health without CoL, then yeah sure; helm is better for training. Edited February 12, 2009 by Korrode Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
