Hoarding poll

[nathanstenzel]

I have had 0-250K gc lately, most of which I invest in ingredients for bars and FE (to train my guild in alchemy) and it helps to have money to buy the rare essences and stones for armor when people request them despite my prices. If it was not for accepting items as well as gc during my sales, I would never be able to sell anything else than swords. I may also use the money to buy ingredients for manu training.

 

I have 2 serp stones, 1 removal stone, 1 rosto (so I can dare to wear my fancy gear that I make), 2 saving stones (only mixed and never found, I think....and hope) and 4 EFE. I would have voted a different amount of rare items, but the poll wording specified stones. I have modable swords too, which I will save till I have an order for them or I get to make one that I have not made before. I have a few enchanted (made from a modable) swords that I made myself.

 

And yes, my money does fluctuate that much. You need alot in order to supply the guild with stuff to do. I wish I could get a harvester into the guild so I wouldn't have to buy from outside the guild. lol Keep the money in the guild...the ultimate goal of a guildmaster....besides making the guild great.

[Gen_Axis]

I think I have the solution for this

 

Would it be possible to base the odds of making rare items based on the number of that item you have in storage+inventory? So, a person 'hoarding' would have very little chance of making a rare, but the average joe, who can't find one, would have the best chance of making one.

 

I think this would solve this issue at its core.

 

Please don't flame me over this, just think it over and post your thoughts thanks....

 

It might have a formula like this: if the standard odds were 1/10000, the modified odds would be 1/(number you have x 10000).

 

Some cons :

 

1. While going to harvest I'll give all of them to friend who isn't harving anything atm. (most freq.)

2. I'll hoard them @ alt char.

3. Give them to a bot (only for those who have one)

 

Conclusion: work for nothing But INTENTIONS for this idea were good

[DogBreath]

I think I have the solution for this

 

Would it be possible to base the odds of making rare items based on the number of that item you have in storage+inventory? So, a person 'hoarding' would have very little chance of making a rare, but the average joe, who can't find one, would have the best chance of making one.

 

I think this would solve this issue at its core.

 

Please don't flame me over this, just think it over and post your thoughts thanks....

 

It might have a formula like this: if the standard odds were 1/10000, the modified odds would be 1/(number you have x 10000).

 

Some cons :

 

1. While going to harvest I'll give all of them to friend who isn't harving anything atm. (most freq.)

2. I'll hoard them @ alt char.

3. Give them to a bot (only for those who have one)

 

Conclusion: work for nothing But INTENTIONS for this idea were good

 

I see your point, but wouldn't giving them to a alt be breaking the rules and result in you losing them all if you got caught? I don't see how this affects this solution I do see your point about say, a storage bot.... hrm, not sure how to get around that... ugh...

Edited January 30, 2009 by DogBreath

[marack]

I have a few rare-ish items in sto (stones/enriched essies).

 

I save mine for;

 

- When I can make higher level items.

- Give away as gifts.

- Help guildies make things.

- Trade for other items.

 

My intent is not to sit on them, waiting for prices to rise, then selling them as a method to acquire GCs. I have other ways to make GCs.

 

Hope this helps...

[DogBreath]

I think I have the solution for this

 

Would it be possible to base the odds of making rare items based on the number of that item you have in storage+inventory? So, a person 'hoarding' would have very little chance of making a rare, but the average joe, who can't find one, would have the best chance of making one.

 

I think this would solve this issue at its core.

 

Please don't flame me over this, just think it over and post your thoughts thanks....

 

It might have a formula like this: if the standard odds were 1/10000, the modified odds would be 1/(number you have x 10000).

 

Some cons :

 

1. While going to harvest I'll give all of them to friend who isn't harving anything atm. (most freq.)

2. I'll hoard them @ alt char.

3. Give them to a bot (only for those who have one)

 

Conclusion: work for nothing But INTENTIONS for this idea were good

 

I see your point, but wouldn't giving them to a alt be breaking the rules and result in you losing them all if you got caught? I don't see how this affects this solution I do see your point about say, a storage bot.... hrm, not sure how to get around that... ugh...

Perhaps, as an addition to this, bots should be limited on the number of rare items they can hold. That'd fix up the loose ends...

[Cruella]

I think I have the solution for this

 

Would it be possible to base the odds of making rare items based on the number of that item you have in storage+inventory? So, a person 'hoarding' would have very little chance of making a rare, but the average joe, who can't find one, would have the best chance of making one.

 

I think this would solve this issue at its core.

 

Please don't flame me over this, just think it over and post your thoughts thanks....

 

It might have a formula like this: if the standard odds were 1/10000, the modified odds would be 1/(number you have x 10000).

 

It doesn't make sense to me for a very simple reason - no one who seriously produces anything that uses rare ingredients can rely on getting them without purchasing. Due to low chances of making EME & EFE or harving enrichment stones and binding stones probably all serious manuers and crafters need to buy these on the market. Also they need to gather quite a large amounts which are being considered hoarding by many, but for them are just minimum required for a small project to excel in their skill. Read ads on channel 3 where people ask to buy 20 bindings, 30 EFE's and 20k steel bars in one batch. And this is just for one "small project", in a few days they are be back trying to buy the same amount again. Not only that they struggle to get what they need to progress in their skill, shall they be additionally punished by lowering their chances to get anything rare by themselves?

 

Disussion about hoarding in EL is like endless problem of lack of toilet paper in the former Soviet Block countries during communism era. Instead of creating circumstances that would allow to produce more and meet market needs, governments and the party were focusing on evil profiteers hoarding it ...

 

Edit: spelling

Edited January 30, 2009 by Cruella

[DogBreath]

I think I have the solution for this

 

Would it be possible to base the odds of making rare items based on the number of that item you have in storage+inventory? So, a person 'hoarding' would have very little chance of making a rare, but the average joe, who can't find one, would have the best chance of making one.

 

I think this would solve this issue at its core.

 

Please don't flame me over this, just think it over and post your thoughts thanks....

 

It might have a formula like this: if the standard odds were 1/10000, the modified odds would be 1/(number you have x 10000).

 

It doesn't make sense to me for a very simple reason - no one who seriously produces anything that uses rare ingredients can rely on getting them without purchasing. Due to low chances of making EME & EFE or harving enrichment stones and binding stones probably all serious manuers and crafters need to buy these on the market. Also they need to gather quite a large amounts which are being considered hoarding by many, but for them are just minimum required for a small project to excel in their skill. Read ads on channel 3 where people ask to buy 20 bindings, 30 EFE's and 20k steel bars in one batch. And this is just for one "small project", in a few days they are be back trying to buy the same amount again. Not only that they struggle to get what they need to progress in their skill, shall they be additionally punished by lowering their chances to get anything rare by themselves?

 

Disussion about hoarding in EL is like endless problem of lack of toilet paper in the former Soviet Block countries during communism era. Instead of creating circumstances that would allow to produce more and meet market needs, governments and the party were focusing on evil profiteers hoarding it ...

 

Edit: spelling

But this would make the person who uses them up have a better chance of making them than the person that 'hoards' them. I think that was what we're after here

[Cruella]

I think I have the solution for this

 

Would it be possible to base the odds of making rare items based on the number of that item you have in storage+inventory? So, a person 'hoarding' would have very little chance of making a rare, but the average joe, who can't find one, would have the best chance of making one.

 

I think this would solve this issue at its core.

 

Please don't flame me over this, just think it over and post your thoughts thanks....

 

It might have a formula like this: if the standard odds were 1/10000, the modified odds would be 1/(number you have x 10000).

 

It doesn't make sense to me for a very simple reason - no one who seriously produces anything that uses rare ingredients can rely on getting them without purchasing. Due to low chances of making EME & EFE or harving enrichment stones and binding stones probably all serious manuers and crafters need to buy these on the market. Also they need to gather quite a large amounts which are being considered hoarding by many, but for them are just minimum required for a small project to excel in their skill. Read ads on channel 3 where people ask to buy 20 bindings, 30 EFE's and 20k steel bars in one batch. And this is just for one "small project", in a few days they are be back trying to buy the same amount again. Not only that they struggle to get what they need to progress in their skill, shall they be additionally punished by lowering their chances to get anything rare by themselves?

 

Disussion about hoarding in EL is like endless problem of lack of toilet paper in the former Soviet Block countries during communism era. Instead of creating circumstances that would allow to produce more and meet market needs, governments and the party were focusing on evil profiteers hoarding it ...

 

Edit: spelling

But this would make the person who uses them up have a better chance of making them than the person that 'hoards' them. I think that was what we're after here

 

No, because before making just one dragon armor set for instance he'd have to gather 10 bindings and 4 EME's in sto, while others will have zero. So chances of skilled manuer will be decreasing with each rare item put in sto and will almost always be lower than that of a random non-manuer. What if he's stuck with 9 and unable to get 10th ? Shall he mix with 9 bindings taken away from sto and put in a bag ?

Edited January 30, 2009 by Cruella

[DogBreath]

I think I have the solution for this

 

Would it be possible to base the odds of making rare items based on the number of that item you have in storage+inventory? So, a person 'hoarding' would have very little chance of making a rare, but the average joe, who can't find one, would have the best chance of making one.

 

I think this would solve this issue at its core.

 

Please don't flame me over this, just think it over and post your thoughts thanks....

 

It might have a formula like this: if the standard odds were 1/10000, the modified odds would be 1/(number you have x 10000).

 

It doesn't make sense to me for a very simple reason - no one who seriously produces anything that uses rare ingredients can rely on getting them without purchasing. Due to low chances of making EME & EFE or harving enrichment stones and binding stones probably all serious manuers and crafters need to buy these on the market. Also they need to gather quite a large amounts which are being considered hoarding by many, but for them are just minimum required for a small project to excel in their skill. Read ads on channel 3 where people ask to buy 20 bindings, 30 EFE's and 20k steel bars in one batch. And this is just for one "small project", in a few days they are be back trying to buy the same amount again. Not only that they struggle to get what they need to progress in their skill, shall they be additionally punished by lowering their chances to get anything rare by themselves?

 

Disussion about hoarding in EL is like endless problem of lack of toilet paper in the former Soviet Block countries during communism era. Instead of creating circumstances that would allow to produce more and meet market needs, governments and the party were focusing on evil profiteers hoarding it ...

 

Edit: spelling

But this would make the person who uses them up have a better chance of making them than the person that 'hoards' them. I think that was what we're after here

 

No, because before making just one dragon armor set for instance he'd have to gather 10 bindings and 4 EME's in sto, while others will have zero. So chances of skilled manuer will be decreasing with each rare item put in sto and will almost always be lower than that of a random non-manuer. What if he's stuck with 9 and unable to get 10th ? Shall he mix with 9 bindings taken away from sto annd put in a bag ?

Agreed, but that's the point. This would give them incentive to sell their stuff before making more. And would force them to buy more rare items hence stimulating the market more. As well as making hoarding for 'use' still make sense, but hoarding for 'profit' not make sense.

 

To avoid hoarding RARE items on bots, they could be limited to the number of RARE items they could hold (not normal items....)

Edited January 30, 2009 by DogBreath

[Gen_Axis]

Anyway 2 of 3 points was negged from what i said about this suggestion:

 

- It is illegal to interact with alt char (which i knew, just gave an example for people 'no risk, no fun' philosophy) so can't keep them there...

- Bots are not available for everybody to keep thair stuff.

 

But how about 3rd option ?

Just give all of them to a friend before go to harvest ? So you will have 0 (and always best chance to get one) while harvesting, or more extremly you take all of them to harvest area, and drop to a bag or hyperbag = still you are seen by script that you have 0

[Cruella]

Well, I believe we miss the main point - what is a root cause of hoarding.

 

A root cause of hoarding is always scarcity, never abundance.

 

So no matter what type of restriction you come up with, as long as there will be a shortage of rare items, people will be "hoarding" them, as much as they can afford.

 

In order to stop hoarding you need to reach a balance of availability and demand. When people realize that they can get what they need any time at reasonable price, they will automatically stop hoarding.

Edited January 30, 2009 by Cruella

[DogBreath]

Anyway 2 of 3 points was negged from what i said about this suggestion:

 

- It is illegal to interact with alt char (which i knew, just gave an example for people 'no risk, no fun' philosophy) so can't keep them there...

- Bots are not available for everybody to keep thair stuff.

 

But how about 3rd option ?

Just give all of them to a friend before go to harvest ? So you will have 0 (and always best chance to get one) while harvesting, or more extremly you take all of them to harvest area, and drop to a bag or hyperbag = still you are seen by script that you have 0

I you did that it might be considered illegal 3rd party to skirt the rules (at least that's what I'm thinking) also against the rules

 

Well, I believe we miss the main point - what is a root cause of hoarding.

 

A root cause of hoarding is always scarity, never abundance.

 

So no matter what type of restriction you come up with, as long as there will be a shortage of rare items, people will be "hoarding" them, as much as they can afford.

 

In order to stop hoarding you need to reach a balance of availability and demand. When people realize that they can get what they need any time at reasonable price, they will automatically stop hoarding.

Aye, my hope was that this would make people want to sell them, to increase their chance of making more. Hence making them easier to get for everyone. But, for those that keep them for personal use 'later' they would have to buy them as they'd have little chance of making them

[LabRat]

How would giving stuff to a third party be illegal multiplay? Should the artificer cape/perk be removed because that increases your chances too?

[Myrea]

Atm I have over 200k gc.. But that changes all the time (I do try to keep it 100k+ in case of nice deals).

 

I have a few enriched essies, at least one of each (except EDE, since I have no use for those) and at least 1 of each stone as well (not the removal ones). But I don't have more than 5 of any of the rare items.

 

I tend to keep the items that might come in handy in the future and sell all other things. My own levels aren't high enough to make high level items myself, but it is easier to have a friend make them for me with the ings I have than having to search for the stones or Enriched essies when I need them.

 

So you might call me a hoarder.. Though I do plan on using the items I have, or selling them if I decide not to use them.

[Gen_Axis]

In order to stop hoarding you need to reach a balance of availability and demand. When people realize that they can get what they need any time at reasonable price, they will automatically stop hoarding.

Indeed, like NPC selling them

 

I you did that it might be considered illegal 3rd party to skirt the rules (at least that's what I'm thinking) also against the rules

Well, I didn't say I want my FRIEND to TRADE with my alt, I want my friend to KEEP them for me while I'll go harvest..

I can't see how giving stuff to a friend is illegal...

[DogBreath]

How would giving stuff to a third party be illegal multiplay? Should the artificer cape/perk be removed because that increases your chances too?

Yeah I guess having a friend hold them does poke a hole in this, oh well, I tried... As far as the comment about the cape, like, wtf? I don't know what part of left field that came from but whatever...

[Aislinn]

I suspect that if anything new is coded based on number of items in inventory, something would be changed in the illegal multi rules to accomodate manipulating your storage to have 0 so you have better odds to get something good. Otherwise it defeats the whole purpose of coding it in the first place. Rules are always subject to change because new things get added ingame, people find new ways to manipulate them to get around them, etc etc etc. Never ever ever assume the rules are in stone especially when you are talking about coding new things that would make new major loopholes.

 

Edit: That said, I also doubt something that easily manipulated would be ever coded. As mentioned, it isn't like we are going to say you can't trade with your friends now too, not to mention hyperspace bags...bots...I would doubt anything depending on what you have at any given time in inventory or storage would be a good option. Way too hard to control.

[majestyk]

In order to stop hoarding you need to reach a balance of availability and demand. When people realize that they can get what they need any time at reasonable price, they will automatically stop hoarding.

Indeed, like NPC selling them

 

Please tell me one good reason why hoarders should sell their rare stones now. Even if it is sure that they can buy them back at a reasonable price when they need them, why should they bother? It's more work to sell and re-buy than just to keep them.

 

IMO for most hoarders this is not related with financial reasons or the intention to make a profit. It's about "I have what I have" and "too lazy to bother".

[Wizzy]

In order to stop hoarding you need to reach a balance of availability and demand. When people realize that they can get what they need any time at reasonable price, they will automatically stop hoarding.

Indeed, like NPC selling them

 

Please tell me one good reason why hoarders should sell their rare stones now. Even if it is sure that they can buy them back at a reasonable price when they need them, why should they bother? It's more work to sell and re-buy than just to keep them.

 

IMO for most hoarders this is not related with financial reasons or the intention to make a profit. It's about "I have what I have" and "too lazy to bother".

I dont think that is the case

 

What I would find intresting is how many rare items are in storages of inactive players?

 

People that havent played for say 1 year or longer? I bet there are a few nmt's and rostos kicking around

[DogBreath]

I suspect that if anything new is coded based on number of items in inventory, something would be changed in the illegal multi rules to accomodate manipulating your storage to have 0 so you have better odds to get something good. Otherwise it defeats the whole purpose of coding it in the first place. Rules are always subject to change because new things get added ingame, people find new ways to manipulate them to get around them, etc etc etc. Never ever ever assume the rules are in stone especially when you are talking about coding new things that would make new major loopholes.

 

Edit: That said, I also doubt something that easily manipulated would be ever coded. As mentioned, it isn't like we are going to say you can't trade with your friends now too, not to mention hyperspace bags...bots...I would doubt anything depending on what you have at any given time in inventory or storage would be a good option. Way too hard to control.

Arg, never thought about hyper bags either, lol, good point

[Cruella]

What I would find intresting is how many rare items are in storages of inactive players?

 

People that havent played for say 1 year or longer? I bet there are a few nmt's and rostos kicking around

 

Goods of inactive players have no impact on game economy since they are not being sold nor used.

[Wizzy]

What I would find intresting is how many rare items are in storages of inactive players?

 

People that havent played for say 1 year or longer? I bet there are a few nmt's and rostos kicking around

 

Goods of inactive players have no impact on game economy since they are not being sold nor used.

Really?

 

Then why do I hear things that % rates of rare items are changed do to the amount in game?

[majestyk]

What I would find intresting is how many rare items are in storages of inactive players?

 

People that havent played for say 1 year or longer? I bet there are a few nmt's and rostos kicking around

 

Goods of inactive players have no impact on game economy since they are not being sold nor used.

 

And that's exactly my point too. Goods being hoarded are not sold nor used, so they have no impact on game economy. Why is the sheer number of anything in game relevant at all?

[Krrick]

I keep a few stones and enriched essies in storage so that I have them when I want to make or have something made. It takes quite a few for some items. Also many of my enriched essies are EWEs that I've bought from younglings to help them out, though I really have little to no use for them.

 

I did put that I save them for future items, however, I don't really consider myself a hoarder as I use them freely, either for myself or to give to guildies to help them replace items they've broken.

[conavar]

What I would find intresting is how many rare items are in storages of inactive players?

 

People that havent played for say 1 year or longer? I bet there are a few nmt's and rostos kicking around

 

Goods of inactive players have no impact on game economy since they are not being sold nor used.

Really?

 

Then why do I hear things that % rates of rare items are changed do to the amount in game?

 

Im not sure how Radu collects his figures for how many rare items are ingame, but I would guess it would include those in inactive accounts (only Radu can answer that 100%), so yes in theory it could affect the market, since the items in inactive accounts make the % chance to make a rare lower, which equals a higher market price.

Cant tbh see anything that can be done about it though.

Edited January 30, 2009 by conavar