Kusamura Jungle

[Michic0_oL]

no more mother****** harvester noobs there now then, we can put back the cockatrices then

[Burn]

These responses of picking on tiny details without reading the full message, or telling me "not to despair" are at best telling me "hey, don't state your opinion".

 

 

That is all I'm doing, stating my opinion as I see things happening lately. I'm not "in despair" or crying or whatever the hell else people are thinking. I'm stating my opinion as I see it, based on SEVERAL changes of late, not just this one.

 

 

You'd think as a player you'd want changes that are made after careful consideration and planning (the big "balance" mentioned by Roja) rather than random whim changes that are changed before any consideration is done. None of these changes of late was really necessary, and could well have been left alone until the time was taken to do this full balance. And we'd feel a bit less screwed with one big balance rather than the random-but-regular negative changes of late. (Yeah, suddenly now that I've stated my opinion the responses are against me, but the complaining on channels 4/6 when this was discovered tells me these responses aren't being honest, and I'm not alone in this opinion.)

 

 

 

I have an opinion, and the willingness to speak it despite it being opposing the "powers that be", solely because I like and enjoy the game, and want to see it expand and improve in the best way possible. In this case I just happen to feel that such random changes, done without a "big picture balance" aren't improving the game in any way and get annoying when they happen regularly. Gameplay would be much better if these changes were saved for the "big picture balance" mentioned, limiting them to real bug fixes until then.

Edited December 9, 2008 by GoodDay2Die

[DinkyDee]

I wonder if anyone has made any measurements regarding how easy or difficult it is to use particular resource (by measuring times of trips between resource and storage) ? Do that and you will see that Kusa silver was no better than Glac/Trass route. And due to Lenny it was more risky to use. I do not complain, I just moved to Trassian for silver and to EVTR for iron, I just do not see objective reasons for such change.

 

You're right, KJ wasn't really much quicker, but all the clicking to get to glac/trass and EVTR annoys me. Also, EVTR just has one little thing of iron and gets too crowded too fast.

[DinkyDee]

Cruella, if another very easy access route such as pv-kj boat exists, well then it too should be changed. Problem is I don't know about them all(and you guys won't tell me because obviously you want to keep the game EZ)

That is a big reason why all the maps will be fixed up.

 

Small things matter a lot, RP won't be taken out but more put in. Like I said, you really don't have anything to worry about. We don't plan on making the game worse, but if we do see a real short cut cheat that was never meant to be, we will indeed take it out.

 

I understand your point, but sometimes those shortcuts really help cut through the tedium of harving. Having to wait a long time while your char map walks to sto doesn't really make the game harder, it's just boring. If the goal is to make a better game, please keep in mind that these things do make people enjoy the game more.

[DinkyDee]

no more mother****** harvester noobs there now then, we can put back the cockatrices then

 

If that does happen, please add more trice rather than removing them from WV. okthxbye

[DHT]

the route from Trassian mine to Iscal sto is exactly the same as the Kusa/PV route was, you just need to bring a bone. Secret revealed, you can kill me know, hope this gets removed too

[conavar]

Having to wait a long time while your char map walks to sto doesn't really make the game harder, it's just boring.

 

maybe the slow map walking problem will be solved in the update with the inclusions of the #speed hax and horses

 

Note: From trying the horses on the test server, the speed they move makes some of the maps seem alot smaller, so IMO I wouldnt be surprised if in the future more harv spots/ npcs etc are moved further away from storages to compensate for this, and to artificially make the maps seem larger again

[DinkyDee]

Having to wait a long time while your char map walks to sto doesn't really make the game harder, it's just boring.

 

maybe the slow map walking problem will be solved in the update with the inclusions of the #speed hax and horses

 

Note: From trying the horses on the test server, the speed they move makes some of the maps seem alot smaller, so IMO I wouldnt be surprised if in the future more harv spots/ npcs etc are moved further away from storages to compensate for this, and to artificially make the maps seem larger again

 

And what are the odds that the horses won't be cost prohibitive?

[conavar]

And what are the odds that the horses won't be cost prohibitive?

 

No bet

 

We will have to wait and see what you can and cant do from horseback and the cost

[Roja]

Howsabout, rather than these unannounced on-a-whim changes that keep happening that screw harvers over, we get things left as-is until this "balance" is actually done? "Things like this" don't need to be happening at all.

 

It's not on a whim, it's more like.. "omg wtf is this doing here?!" So the problem is corrected asap. You are not meant to be able to create a ton of things a couple steps from the storage.

This is the first game I, and mostly everyone on this team, has ever worked on. We're bound to make mistakes, but we also learn from them and fix them. Which is why we'll be fixing everything up. But until then we don't want to leave "cheats" in the game that were never meant to be there either. So we think it's better to remove them.

[Gilrain]

(and you guys won't tell me because obviously you want to keep the game EZ)

i dont think that this is true.

I would certainly share the few secrets i know of, if it helps developing this game further as a challenging one, and probably others would do so as well. (wont post secrects in public forum though)

Even more, if its that much work to check all the resources on all maps, i dare to propose that you could use the information from experienced players about such things. Many players know exactly the differences in time and convenience of the different possibilites to harvest things and the like.

 

Ofcourse many people are hesitant with changes (thats in the human nature) but that shouldnt be a reason to stop improving the game (which is already very good!).

 

best regards (and pls dont kill me for this)

Gilrain

 

PS: Kusa silver/iron was in fact not faster than Trassian or EVTR, but more convenient, i totally agree with DinkyDee in this point

[DinkyDee]

Howsabout, rather than these unannounced on-a-whim changes that keep happening that screw harvers over, we get things left as-is until this "balance" is actually done? "Things like this" don't need to be happening at all.

 

It's not on a whim, it's more like.. "omg wtf is this doing here?!" So the problem is corrected asap. You are not meant to be able to create a ton of things a couple steps from the storage.

This is the first game I, and mostly everyone on this team, has ever worked on. We're bound to make mistakes, but we also learn from them and fix them. Which is why we'll be fixing everything up. But until then we don't want to leave "cheats" in the game that were never meant to be there either. So we think it's better to remove them.

 

Harvest speed and mixing time limit production way more than the distance from storage, unless it's way out of the way like hydro; there's only so much you can harv and mix in an hour... Taking out the shortcuts can slow things down a little, but mostly it'll just make it more tedious - having to map walk for a few minutes really doesn't add anything to the game play.

[Sonic]

(and you guys won't tell me because obviously you want to keep the game EZ)

i dont think that this is true.

I would certainly share the few secrets i know of, if it helps developing this game further as a challenging one, and probably others would do so as well. (wont post secrects in public forum though)

Even more, if its that much work to check all the resources on all maps, i dare to propose that you could use the information from experienced players about such things. Many players know exactly the differences in time and convenience of the different possibilites to harvest things and the like.

 

Ofcourse many people are hesitant with changes (thats in the human nature) but that shouldnt be a reason to stop improving the game (which is already very good!).

 

best regards (and pls dont kill me for this)

Gilrain

 

PS: Kusa silver/iron was in fact not faster than Trassian or EVTR, but more convenient, i totally agree with DinkyDee in this point

 

@ the bolded part, then surely trass silver must go too...i mean, its not logical to have these inconsistancies ^^..oh then we must look at MM silver(knowing the 'right' way), i bet thats even closer....my point? where does one stop....

[Roja]

True but it still should not be THAT close to the storage. I mean we should just put all resources available right AT the storage if we're going to allow stuff like that. Why walk at all?

[DinkyDee]

True but it still should not be THAT close to the storage. I mean we should just put all resources available right AT the storage if we're going to allow stuff like that. Why walk at all?

 

The flip side to that is why not take out everything and stick it all in the hydro cave?

 

I agree that it wouldn't make sense to make everything too close to sto - would you guys be willing to compromise by returning the boats while sticking the silver a little farther out, like over where the iron is?

 

Also I wanted to add that if all these things are taken out, it's going to remove all incentive for a lot of players to go to C2 at all.

[conavar]

I agree that it wouldn't make sense to make everything too close to sto - would you guys be willing to compromise by returning the boats while sticking the silver a little farther out, like over where the iron is?

 

I would say even then the PV boat is to close to storage, maybe moving that further away from sto could be an option, like to near the bridge ?

[Roja]

No, there will be no boat/shorcut going directly to the storage-that's out of the question.

 

Like I said there will be a lot of changes in the future to balance things out. but we still can't let really cheat like shortcuts exist in the meantime.

[Aislinn]

I agree that it wouldn't make sense to make everything too close to sto - would you guys be willing to compromise by returning the boats while sticking the silver a little farther out, like over where the iron is?

moving the silver a little bit down the map doens't change or fix the problem. Autowalk to boat, click boat, voila storage. I gotta say, now it makes sense why everybody was screaming so loud about the cockatrice. Not to mention all the other way too convenient resources right nearby (essie-flowers coal iron etc). Insta-essie, insta-storage. Nice.

 

Also I wanted to add that if all these things are taken out, it's going to remove all incentive for a lot of players to go to C2 at all.

I think you misunderstand. Resources are going to be redistributed on all maps. Not removed, relocated. C1 too btw. As roja pointed out earlier, most of the resources were placed with no plan, or thought of where other related resources and storages were located. Look at the mapmaker list on the main site: Lots of people with their fingers in the pot, thngs get put in that were not approved, and sometimes when maps got edited after the fact, other things got snuck in that were not approved. It is very easy for things to slip in when Roja is thinking Mapmaker X is fixing the bridge but he adds 5 other little cute things he/she forgot to mention. There are only so many hours in a day to inspect every detail on a def file. Roja and Ent are absolutely well within their rights to immediately remove something that was never supposed to go in.

[Vanyel]

This thread is ridiculous. Honestly, it doesn't matter whether it was put there on purpose or not. It doesn't matter whether Roja missed this route while approving map. What matters is Roja and Radu decided it should be removed. What's the purpose of all this whining, then? This game has been started and is developped by Roja, Radu and few other people. Any changes in the game are only up to them and if they decide to consult these changes with anybody else it's just out of courtesy.

C'mon folks, stop bitching.

[DinkyDee]

moving the silver a little bit down the map doens't change or fix the problem. Autowalk to boat, click boat, voila storage. I gotta say, now it makes sense why everybody was screaming so loud about the cockatrice. Not to mention all the other way too convenient resources right nearby (essie-flowers coal iron etc). Insta-essie, insta-storage. Nice.

 

Well, yeah, it was a good spot.

 

Anyway, as to what constitutes a challenge as opposed to a nuisance, or a convenience vs. a cheat, I already stated my case.

 

As far as it being a good spot for on site mixing, that convenience is balanced out with a risk of losing the bag. Also, my experience has been that it's not all that much faster in most cases to work that way, but it is kinda fun, so I hope the plan isn't to remove all the good essie mixing spots.

 

I think you misunderstand. Resources are going to be redistributed on all maps. Not removed, relocated. C1 too btw. As roja pointed out earlier, most of the resources were placed with no plan, or thought of where other related resources and storages were located. Look at the mapmaker list on the main site: Lots of people with their fingers in the pot, thngs get put in that were not approved, and sometimes when maps got edited after the fact, other things got snuck in that were not approved. It is very easy for things to slip in when Roja is thinking Mapmaker X is fixing the bridge but he adds 5 other little cute things he/she forgot to mention. There are only so many hours in a day to inspect every detail on a def file.

 

I hope the relocation plan includes some nice harving spots, then - that harving is too quick and easy and not tiresome enough isn't really a common complaint.

 

and Ent are absolutely well within their rights to immediately remove something that was never supposed to go in.

 

No one is questioning that.

[Aphistolas]

moving the silver a little bit down the map doens't change or fix the problem. Autowalk to boat, click boat, voila storage. I gotta say, now it makes sense why everybody was screaming so loud about the cockatrice. Not to mention all the other way too convenient resources right nearby (essie-flowers coal iron etc). Insta-essie, insta-storage. Nice.

 

Evil quote wars time .

 

I do not see how moving the silver further away (though still on the KJ map) would not fix this problem. Please point out the difference between clicking the silver at Morcraven, then exiting the cave, then walking to storage has with this particular shortcut. As I understood it, the problem was specifically confined to the boat leading directly to Palon Vertas storage. Conovar already suggested moving the boat away, and I also don't see why that isn't a viable solution. For example, take the Trassian-Iscalrith shortcut (which I use myself, doh...), is this only permitted because it requires a specific item? Couldn't the same restriction be applied to the KJ-PV boat? Say, you need to "use with" an iron hammer, or something, to get to the Palon Vertas map.

 

On a side note, why is there such a negative reaction (from the moderators) whenever a useful feature is altered or changed in such a way that makes it either less useful, or completely useless, to all players? All of us know that not everyone in game is going to be accepting of such changes, but I don't think that even begins to justify some of the "omfg, n00b, accept it!~!" reactions moderators seem to exhibit. I've never been offended personally, though it's more than a little obvious that the people who are supposed to be setting an example for the players regard those very subjects with contempt.

 

edit: Whoot, evidence and I didn't even need to search.

 

This thread is ridiculous. Honestly, it doesn't matter whether it was put there on purpose or not. It doesn't matter whether Roja missed this route while approving map. What matters is Roja and Radu decided it should be removed. What's the purpose of all this whining, then? This game has been started and is developped by Roja, Radu and few other people. Any changes in the game are only up to them and if they decide to consult these changes with anybody else it's just out of courtesy.

C'mon folks, stop bitching.

 

 

I think you misunderstand. Resources are going to be redistributed on all maps. Not removed, relocated. C1 too btw. As roja pointed out earlier, most of the resources were placed with no plan, or thought of where other related resources and storages were located. Look at the mapmaker list on the main site: Lots of people with their fingers in the pot, thngs get put in that were not approved, and sometimes when maps got edited after the fact, other things got snuck in that were not approved. It is very easy for things to slip in when Roja is thinking Mapmaker X is fixing the bridge but he adds 5 other little cute things he/she forgot to mention. There are only so many hours in a day to inspect every detail on a def file. Roja and Ent are absolutely well within their rights to immediately remove something that was never supposed to go in.

 

I agree with the first part, and I do not think if various shortcuts are removed C2 will suddenly become barren overnight.

 

Though, I do think removing the useful shortcuts would serve to make the game considerably more frustrating. Of course, in this case, perhaps it is justified. In future nobody can be certain, though. I thought the idea behind shortcuts was the fact they were secret, and finding them (i.e. spending time looking for them) rewarded you by alleviating some of the difficulty of a particular task. I'd be very disappointed if most of the useful resources were redistributed into futile places. For example, the Trassian harvesters cave seems fairly deserted last time I was there, despite the fact it contains a huge variety of ores and minerals, yet places like Trassian cave (maybe four harvestables in total?) are almost always packed.

 

 

The last sentence of yours I agree with, though I would throw caution to the wind by reminding the developers that there is hardly going to be no negative feedback when useful shortcuts are removed. Especially when they've been ingrained in the playerbase for so long. Removing them almost seems like an act of cruelty, as an attempt to make the game more frustrating for players. While this notion is ludicrous, it is the most simple and easiest to get angry over.

Edited December 9, 2008 by Aphistolas

[chr0nik]

This thread is ridiculous. Honestly, it doesn't matter whether it was put there on purpose or not. It doesn't matter whether Roja missed this route while approving map. What matters is Roja and Radu decided it should be removed. What's the purpose of all this whining, then? This game has been started and is developped by Roja, Radu and few other people. Any changes in the game are only up to them and if they decide to consult these changes with anybody else it's just out of courtesy.

C'mon folks, stop bitching.

 

Yeah, it's ridiculous to state your opinion on a forum about a game. Completely. Thanks for adding your ridiculous opinion to my ridiculous post.

 

This change is inconvenient, but I'll get over it as I'm sure everyone else will. It just seemed odd and unexpected.

 

And even though you're correct in stating that the game owners/designers have no obligation to explain/announce anything to anyone, it is nice and appreciated when they do. To that end, thanks to those who have posted. Good day.

[Cruella]

I believe what people are trying to say is not that they are against the change but that a reasoning given is flawed (not that owners are obliged to give one, however if they do, it should be understandable at least, otherwise such posts appear).

 

The numbers are :

 

* a trip KJ Silver - PV Storage - 60 seconds (walk 56 seconds, I assume 2 seconds for map change, and 2 seconds get to sto and open it)

* a trip Trass Silver - Glacmor Storage - 64 seconds (measured a minute ago)

 

So 4 seconds is THAT important that causes this shortcut to be considered a cheat?

 

GoodDay2Die and others as well were simply asking that before making future decision it would be good to base them on eather measurements or opinions of people who actually use resources. Whether such request will be taken into account or not, it is entirely to owners and developers.

[Aislinn]

@Aphistolas: again, everything is going to be redone because these other shortcuts you are referring to were not known by us either! You aren't getting that. We are going through now looking for what was put in that we didn't know. And to use your MM example, we will probably be revisiting that one too. As I said, both continents are being redone. This is the point. You can't compare "this" to "that" because odds are "that" isn't wanted either.

Also the problem with secrets is once discovered, they aren't secret anymore, and most people who use these tricks/routes didn't discover them on their own to "earn" the right to them. (Other than the devs of course, seems we're the last to know everything around here ) There will be secrets and shortcuts put in, but they won't be like this.

Also I am not sure how I was negative here , I was trying to explain what is going on now and what will happen in the future.

 

@ Cruella: It's not just about the numbers, or the stopclock: It's about the convenience, play-for-me button, the total lack of even knowing this existed and was not approved or wanted or asked for by ent and roja. As was pointed out, something can be further from storage but just too conveninet. Convenience is not always about time.

 

@lordchron, goodday2die, etc: I don't recall a dev asking for opinions, or an official poll put up. I can guarantee you all that repeating yourselves, yelling, yelling louder and longer each time you do repeat yourselves, does not make your opinion that you know better what's good for the game than ent or roja a valid point. You know what would make the gave better for you in your opinion, but if insta-essie insta-storage is not what ent/roja want, that is not what EL is going to give.

[Aphistolas]

Where's that smiley..... Ah yes, Bon voyage months (if not years) of good harvesting tricks. Out with the old, I suppose, though.

 

I don't think I conveyed my point correctly. I'm accepting that things are going to be redone, however I am worried that they will be executed in such a way that blows harvesting completely out of proportion - by removing the harvestables nearly everyone uses and replacing them with lower-quality items (i.e. further from storage, on hazardous maps, etc.) it could inspire a lot of spite amongst the playerbase. Nonetheless, I trust the developers will take appropriate measures to guard against this, thank you for your time.

 

(-goes off to finally complete homework-)

 

edit: And I wasn't specifically referring to you as one such moderator, I added that because you have authority over the other moderators.

Edited December 9, 2008 by Aphistolas