RC Tele-Nex Mine

[Ghrae]

Problem: Group or guild projects in a mine or at some harvestable. Bag(s) are used to hold stuff as it's being muled or mixed. Oops! A tele-nex later... or switching who has access to the bag and someone invisible or just quick jumps on the bag

 

Problem: Communities grow and establish laws and a method to enforce them. In this virtual community it is nearly impossible to enforce a law like "Don't bag jump" other than trade bans or threats of PK, both of which have easy work arounds. While the below suggestion isn't a true form of enforcement, it does allow for the ability to counter a negative action.

 

Solution: A mine is placed in the bag (or at the spot where the bag is to be located, i.e. USED so it exists at that spot). The owner has a RC device. Someone jumps on the bag, activate the remote and they are tele-nex'd off of it.

 

Issues: Not all tele-nex moves you. If there isn't an available spot, the RC could work and the person would remain on the bag

 

Issues: A bag jumper could line a crowded resource with several such mines and hope that someone would bag at the spot a significant amount of st00fz before the mine expired

 

Issues: The costs of the mine, RC or both would have to be somewhere between 1000-5000 to make. It would be like a saving stone and since it could potentially save you a lot of time and st00fz, it should have value. But not so expensive no one would want to use it.

[annatira]

I have always liked the idea of there being consequences for actions. A method of payback, if you will.

 

Another idea is if the contents of the bagjumper's inventory were transferred to the bag when the bagjumper was tele'd.

 

Or if the RC activation simply made all the items in the bag disappear. No one wins then, but somehow satisfying.

 

There will always be Outlaws (and should be, would be dull without the risks) but a bit of retribution is an interesting additon, I think. 8)

[bkc56]

Could you do that now with normal RC mines? That is, can a mine and a bag co-exist on the same spot? Although, since an RC mine can't kill a strong player (or one with a CoL) it may not be much use even if it works.

[Ghrae]

RC mines are good in what situations? PK maps and people with The One? Not sure that would do much good in areas where people use bags

[Kalix]

Like a anti rayla? i like it

[The_Piper]

Ghrae, do you plan to make bags now more or less official a place where you could store stuff and dont lose ownership? Or are we still on the good 'ole idea "drop something on the ground and expect to lose it"?

 

I suggest to be conesequent, drop stuff on the ground and you lose ownership, yes or no, but nothing in between or you will open a can of worms which size you can't even imagine.

 

But to follow such an idea, i would more suggest a guild tag depending mine, since you were talking about guild projects.

 

Put that mine in a bag and when anybody without your guild tag jumps on that bag, it explodes.

 

That should be quite easy to implement, quite easy to understand by players (hopefully)

 

But, imagine this, 2 teleport nexus. The first one teleports you off from your bag, the 2nd one teleports an unlucky harvester off his bag and on your bag and *BANG*.

 

I see more trouble coming from such an idea than just enforcing the strict common sense: Don't ever put stuff in a bag and expect that it's still yours.

 

Piper

[Ghrae]

This idea is NOT to make bags official. In fact, I even mentioned that not all tele nexus ends with actual movement. It's not cure all.

 

A single mine isn't guaranteed to kill someone. Nor is it billed as a method of killing, just harming. It's a strategy to know how and when to use it for maximum effectiveness.

 

This idea is the same thing

[The_Piper]

This idea is NOT to make bags official. In fact, I even mentioned that not all tele nexus ends with actual movement. It's not cure all.

 

A single mine isn't guaranteed to kill someone. Nor is it billed as a method of killing, just harming. It's a strategy to know how and when to use it for maximum effectiveness.

 

This idea is the same thing

 

But you are trying to soften the strict idea of not dropping stuff on the ground in bags, arent you?

 

You suggest to use official stuff, like mines, to punish bag jumpers, so it is somehow an official solution. You might drop stuff on the ground and have now a tool (mine) to protect your ownership somehow, or, at least, a chance to protect *your* stuff on the ground.

 

As much as i hate to lose stuff, i still just say, keep it simple: Don't drop stuff on the ground and expect to keep ownership in any way. No mine, no stone, no other device/spell/whatever. If you drop it, its gone.

 

Otherways i see a lot of trouble being stirred up.

 

Another thing, which might come up is, if the price of that mine/device/whatever is high, only the ebul rich ppl in game can use it, and some ppl might call that unfair. But well, ppl complain about everything

 

Well, just my 2 cents

 

Piper

[Ghrae]

And if you read post 1, you'll see that a bag jumper could use this same "protection" as a tool to make bag jumping easier.

 

And if we used your logic, going in to PK can get you killed, so don't go in there unless you're prepared to die - right? But then the game adds summoning stones, better armor, invisibility, etc etc. You could say that all of those mean that going in to PK means you should live. Yet they don't.

 

This idea doesn't mean that having a bag = right of ownership. Nor does it mean automatic protection if you get jumped.

 

But alas, if you don't like the idea (and that is well within your rights), please, make a suggestion that has a similar effect against those in the community that attempt to ruin the fun of others without involving bags. I *seriously* would like to see such ideas. I understand this may not be the best idea. But if it can generate ideas that are good, I *want* to hear it. But start a new thread (no point having a good idea nixed because it derailed a thread).

[The_Piper]

And if you read post 1, you'll see that a bag jumper could use this same "protection" as a tool to make bag jumping easier.

 

Umm.. that sounds to me that you want to like to put items on a ground *like* a skill, something with strategy. My single point is, keep it simple like i its. Drop something on the ground and you lose it. Full stop. Thats it. Nothing more. I warn you to bring strategy to dropping stuff on the ground, that will cause a lot of trouble IMO.

 

Right now its like this:

 

o Drop stuff on the ground -> expect to lose it (bag, death bag).

o Have stuff in inventory -> expect to lose it when you die

o Have stuff in storage -> its safe

o Put stuff in a hyper bag -> someone with a whatever key can find and take the stuff

 

This is easy to understand and to enforce.

 

It's just simple. But adding more options, like mines/whatever makes it more complicated, thats my point.

 

And if we used your logic, going in to PK can get you killed, so don't go in there unless you're prepared to die - right? But then the game adds summoning stones, better armor, invisibility, etc etc. You could say that all of those mean that going in to PK means you should live. Yet they don't.

Nobody forces you to go on a PK map, and nobody forces you to drop stuff into a bag. Quite simple.

 

This idea doesn't mean that having a bag = right of ownership. Nor does it mean automatic protection if you get jumped.

 

But alas, if you don't like the idea (and that is well within your rights), please, make a suggestion that has a similar effect against those in the community that attempt to ruin the fun of others without involving bags. I *seriously* would like to see such ideas. I understand this may not be the best idea. But if it can generate ideas that are good, I *want* to hear it. But start a new thread (no point having a good idea nixed because it derailed a thread).

 

The suggestion is quite simple: The community should just accept the fact, that a bag on the ground is not safe. Stuff on the ground in a bag is not yours anymore.

 

That was the rule of common sense since years, and i dont see why that should be changed, that is my simple point.

 

(Not that i have anything to say here, but i just felt like to drop some words in this thread)

 

Piper

[korrode]

I have no opinion on this suggestion, just thought i'd comment that much of your concern, Piper, appears to be in relation to the way moderators deal with the situation when someone complains to them about being bagjumped. (Correct me if i'm wrong.)

I don't see how Ghrae's suggestion has any bearing on that.

Bagjumping will still be as legal ever. I dont see how players having some kind of defence against bagjumping would make it any less legal.

 

I have a defence against BRoD (CotU), but that doesn't make BRoD'ing a semi-illegal act, no?

[bkc56]

RC mines are good in what situations? PK maps and people with The One? Not sure that would do much good in areas where people use bags

Ahh, ok, I understand. I didn't get the idea that these new teleport mines would be different than other maps and work on ANY maps/locations.

[Usl]

Actually, I'm not sure I want to diminish the risk of using bags for large projects. Any countermeasure would effectively make bags more secure, and the scenario where the bagjumper covers a place with mines (at ~5Kgc each) and then just hopes that someone will get to that place later on, and harvest a big bag of stuff right there before the mine expires, is really not that convincing. There is a significant unbalance between the usage of these mines to protect bags (you just need to use one) and their usage to attack bags (need to use a high number of them, most of which will just be wasted).

 

Albeit I hate being bagjumped, making such "portable storages" more secure would just encourage people to use them more, increase the global output of the economy, and in turn cause inflation, so that Ent would then need to add more money sinks... and, afk-harvesting will become even less exciting.

 

And finally, if you just want to make bagjumping due to teleport nexus less frequent, it would be just easier to decrease the chance of teleport nexuses, and that's it (ok, I know your proposal has an element of strategy in it - I'm just looking in terms of GNP here ).

[korrode]

it would be just easier to decrease the chance of teleport nexuses, and that's it

and HoS perk removed, i assume...?

[Affliction]

I like the idea. I am against bag mixing or harving for a mule. so i would never use it anyways. but its good.

 

I definatly dont see a bag jumpers using it to try and get people off bags.. too risky for the gc's it would take to buy it.

 

but i DO see a guild or group using it if they were planning on having a large bag to mix and harvest with.

 

I do not see anything negative about this idea. any potintial "problem" would ammount to a few people complaining about some aspect of it like cost.. and people ALWAYS complain about stuff.. there is never anything implemented or changed that satisfies 100% of the people.

 

I think this idea would help the largest amount of people in the game.. b/c everyone harvests and a TON of people use bags to mix out of...

 

The common sense rule that once you drop it its no longer yours still applies.. this just gives you a better chance of reclaiming what you have dropped .. it does NOT give you ownership of it.

 

Bagjumpers are using strategy against harvesters. utilizing invisibility and tele nexus. to get bags.

 

why cant the harvesters use a little strategy against the bagjumpers?

 

*but seriously.. i am against bag mixing and harvesting in the 1st place.. i think your much better off hauling it to storage and mixing there *

[Kalix]

Well i did a hyper bag project with a friend that had about 150k gc worth of stuff in it and if someone bjed it while we were gathering the ings and putting them in the bag i would have liked to have that.

 

And i can see how people say bjing isnt against the rules but I think of it as stealing. And if you say that if its a bag it dosnt belong to u and any one can take it, then think if you dropped your wallet on the ground and some hobo picked it up and ran away with it right in front of you?

Edited September 14, 2008 by time4u2die

[Aislinn]

And i can see how people say bjing isnt against the rules but I think of it as stealing. And if you say that if its a bag it dosnt belong to u and any one can take it, then think if you dropped your wallet on the ground and some hobo picked it up and ran away with it right in front of you?

Do you intentionally drop your wallet on the ground? People are intentionally using bags which were not meant to be safe and were not meant to be protected.. Using bags is like sharing your password, you know it's risky at best and you do so at your own peril. Intentionally by game design.

I agree with Pip here, if you put stuff in a bag for ANY reason, it's fair game for anyone else.

[Vanyel]

I was against any suggestion like marking bags, putting mines in bags and the like. I don't like this suggestion for the very same reason. The moment you put something into bag to make your life easier you have to face a possibility of losing it.

I fully agree with Piper on this matter.

[Mar(c)]

It's a pity (although I know it was unevitable) that a suggestion like this, about game mechanics, gets shot off with arguments about game rules and "community rules", while it doesn't change anything in either of those.

• I don't get this "more or less official a place where you could store stuff and dont lose ownership" (Piper<{POST_SNAPBACK}>), "strict idea of not dropping stuff" (Piper<{POST_SNAPBACK}>).
  Bags are part of the game mechanics, that's as "official" as they are.
  Nothing to do with game rules. (More to do with "community rules", but those are not official, and the suggestion doesn't affect those either.)
  
• How would this suggestion be causing trouble? (Piper<{POST_SNAPBACK}>)
  Like Korrode<{POST_SNAPBACK}>, I also have the feeling that you're talking about trouble on the moderating level?
  Really, try to put some more distinction between game mechanics, game rules, and "community rules". (And that's something that should be done more in general, on many other issues things get complicated because these three get messed up.)
  
• "Using bags is like sharing your password" (Aislinn<{POST_SNAPBACK}>) is a really far stretch, all the way into game rules.
  

 

Anyway, bottom-line of the suggestion is this:

I have always liked the idea of there being consequences for actions.

A bag that's left is fair game (by game mechanics and game rules) indeed, but the way it is now, getting bag jumped also means "game over" (by game mechanics and game rules) for that bag.

I'd like at least some active means against bag jumpers -- they have gotten it easier since the introduction of tele nexus and invisibility, the only means against them are preventive (true sight, and of course "don't make a bag").

 

A few thoughts:

• Making a bag still has the risk that you lose it to bad connection or "bad individuals", this suggestion doesn't change that.
  It would introduce the possibility to make bags just a bit more secure (not even much), against a price.
  
• Note that this suggestion is not a punishment (Piper<{POST_SNAPBACK}>) for bag jumpers, since with this suggestion there's nothing to lose for them ("Someone jumps on the bag, activate the remote and they are tele-nex'd off of it.", Ghrae<{POST_SNAPBACK}>).
  

A few possible tweaks to the suggestion:

• Restrict the ability to place such a device to only the creator of the bag (would solve issue #2).
  
• Connecting it to the guild tag doesn't sound like a good idea, since projects aren't restricted to guilds.
  

[Aislinn]

[*]"Using bags is like sharing your password" (Aislinn<{POST_SNAPBACK}>) is a really far stretch, all the way into game rules.

I don't see it as a stretch at all. I don't think you understood my point. Passwords were made for a reason, and that reason is to keep your account safe and private. You share it, you run into a high level of risk that you will lose your character.

A bag was never meant to be used to safely mix/store/transfer stuff, hence the high level of risk involved when you try to do so. I am not mixing game rules with game mechanics or community rules, just giving examples of how if you go against intention, there is great risk.

 

 

A bag that's left is fair game (by game mechanics and game rules) indeed, but the way it is now, getting bag jumped also means "game over" (by game mechanics and game rules) for that bag.

I'd like at least some active means against bag jumpers -- they have gotten it easier since the introduction of tele nexus and invisibility, the only means against them are preventive (true sight, and of course "don't make a bag").

I just do not understand why everybody thinks it's their "right" to use a bag safely and it's only the ebul bag jumpers who are at fault? Every single person who has attempted to use a bag in a manner in which it was not intended is bucking the system and now wants to ensure they can even more easily do it. It's no accident that nothing was done about harvest teleports popping you off your mixing bag. Again, if you are willing to take the risk of harvesting while sitting on a bag of stuff, you should be willing to accept that you could fly off it at any time. You all know that there are people hanging around waiting to grab your bags, yet everyone still uses them KNOWING both that bags were not meant for this purpose(and the events that are likely to happen) AND these guys are likely to try to grab the bag...and yet end up outraged when it happens. I just don't get it!

 

I do not think game mechanics should be altered to accomodate "community rules" which in this case are going against the intent of bag use in the first place. Usage of bags in this manner has been "allowed" to continue and the ability to do so not removed totally because there is a sufficiently high enough level of risk associated with it. Suggesting ways to reduce this, or at least pay back those who provide that risk, probably won't make it ingame since it goes against the intent in the first place.

[Michic0_oL]

Just my 2 cent :

 

Making stuff in the mine is easier because you don't have to haul the ore to sto which is the heaviest, final product is lighter than the ingreds so less hauling which means more time to alch etc, which means / hour more alched stuff.

 

So : alching in a mine is easier, therefore there should be some kind of counterpart : if you mine and alch int he mine, you should have a bigger chance to be jumped :]

 

edit : and this idea could be easily changed to pk purposes : put it in front of the arena, once someone steps on it, BOOM, tele in nca or whatever and pwnt :]

Edited September 15, 2008 by Michic0_oL

[tork_unib]

Good idea Ghrae!

[boognish]

Please implement this!

 

I will have fun flinging people around at storage.