Level dependent summoning

[TirunCollimdus]

Okay. Didn't know it was 200% already. That means that lower than level 100 and the summons have to make up for what they are missing on attack with the new defense. Seems like you will have to get very high before the defense is going to cover the missing attack power. This is just giving people with 100 summoning normal attack power plus defense too. I really fail how to see that is going to motivate any large number of players to start summoning. It just isn't worth it since summons die so fast already.

 

My idea for reducing the damage rate and changing it so that the summons start out at 150% of their normal attack values is really the only way I see to make this change motivate anyone to start summoning. Well, you could change the defense bonus to 1% per level just like the attack and that might work too. I agree with Tempest about it not being able to motivate people to summon the way it is suggested.

 

Giving the same att and def bonus would lead to the summons getting back to the kind of power that they had when they started out at 200% normal attack a lot faster. Removing some of the damage based on summon level would bring the summons back up to where they were and give them a little edge too. If the idea is put into the game as suggested it simply benefits players who already have massively high summon levels. It wouldn't benefit the skill as a whole because it would be even harder to level summoning with such a low defense bonus and such a huge att penalty compared to the norm.

 

This is a great idea if it benefits all summoners instead of just the uber high ones. IMO as it is written there will be even fewer players summoning though there will be some who work harder at it for PK reasons.

 

Tirun

[Kaddy]

We tested some of new summons in test server...

 

Blodoks summoned some giants, i was getting 48 atk exp from them with 106 atk level and 29 rationality. Couldnt block so i have no idea about their attack level. But they were hitting a little high

 

and Kagen & Felessan summoned some giants, they were more easy, like i could kill one in 2 restores (i have 370 hp and 264 restore there). I could hit easy with OS and i was hitting around 50's (48/48 p/c)

 

I tried my best to test some

-Kad

[TirunCollimdus]

So what are your comparisons to fighting summoned giants on the real server? Are the test giants much weaker? Are they still strong enough that someone would take the weaker giants for the pay off they get around 85 and higher summoning? I can't imagine the defense being much help below that level if it helps even then. I think if some comparisons are made doing the same summons on both servers we could see if the payoff in the end at 100 summoning would even be worth trying for at all.

 

Tirun

[Wizzy]

Could the formula be based on charm and summon level? It would be nice to see the cross attribute of charm also increase the summoners abilitys a bit more then it currently does.

 

Just a thought.

[TirunCollimdus]

If charm was given bonus percentages similar to but higher than the ones for level then you could bring the summons back up to the same levels they were at before the reduction this idea offers. The additional bonus percentages from charm could at maximum(with 48 charm) give a summons that had 200% attack as the current summons do but also with the defense added in this idea. The defense could max out at the creatures natural defense level or 50% higher than that depending on how much Entropy wanted to reward summoners who went all out for the 48 charm.

 

Great suggestion Wizzy. This would make the suggestion perfect IMO.

 

Tirun

[Entropy]

sorry, meant lower than 100, e.g. 99,98,97 etc.

also noticed that my calcs were a lil wrong lolz.

 

EDIT: and tirun, with the first sentence he meant the normal attack of a monster. summoned monsters always have 2x attack so 290 for summoned giant. therefor it has 9 def. the bonus will be added onto the normal attack level 145 in this case.

 

Actually, right now, the defense is added to attack then the defense is 0.

With the current system, those under level 50 summoning will be penalized to some extent, but at the level 50 you have:

150% attack, 25% defense.

While for the 'small' creatures that won't make a huge difference, for a dragon or giant it will be a big deal, because, while the attack is 'smaller' than it was before, the defense will buffer some of the hits damage, so the monster will live for longer, and in the end will do more damage.

 

Anyway, like I said, the nuber can be adjusted here and there, it's not like they are carved in stone.

[TirunCollimdus]

Thanks for the real information on summons Entropy. It is really nice when we get to know how things actually do work in game. The way things are giving a penalty to players under 50 summoning is okay by me but I think that penalty should be able to be compensated for by the charm cross attribute. Giving charm just the same bonus as levels have right now(in your suggestion) seems like a great way to give more incentive for players to use their pick points on it. That would minimize the penalty for under level 50 players if they chose to use the points in charm.

 

Yes it would make summons even tougher when the player gets high enough with high enough charm but then shouldn't players who use their pick points for charm get something they can depend on for their choice? The double summons is great but it isn't exactly something you can depend on and has a lot to do with luck which could lead to not seeing a double summons very often too. If you are really trying to get diversity and strategy as important parts of EL then something has to be done to give people a reason to participate in them. Asking people to disadvantage themselves for the purpose of exploring other character styles than the standard ones obviously does not work.

 

Yes there are players in game who choose not to min/max their attributes for role play purposes and a few others who are not really interested in strategy and character builds but most players I think are here for the challenge. IMO most of EL's committed players want to use the best strategies available and so their has to be a reason to use attributes before people will do it. Ranging, the change in magic and the attribute cap have helped but we need more to really diversify. Give people the opportunity to make summoning a viable alternative to actual melee fighting and we can really see a new and fresh mix in game. My suggestion for mage class by attributes is based on this same reasoning.

 

Tirun

[Quesar]

While for the 'small' creatures that won't make a huge difference, for a dragon or giant it will be a big deal, because, while the attack is 'smaller' than it was before, the defense will buffer some of the hits damage, so the monster will live for longer, and in the end will do more damage.

Would this still be true if the summon was fighting a creature more powerful than itself?

[Entropy]

Yes, but there are more variables to consider, so sometimes it is better, sometimes not.

[TirunCollimdus]

Yes, but there are more variables to consider, so sometimes it is better, sometimes not.

 

 

If the idea is to get more people summoning and making different character builds then why not use my suggestion for giving charm additional percentages too so that summoning will just simply be better than it was? It still would take over level 50 summoning to get back to the same attack level as summons have now. How many players would put charm at 48 to do that? Even if they did you suddenly have some very different builds, yes? High level summoners would still not be that much more powerful than with the suggestion as it is. An extra 48% on attack and an extra 24% on defense would make a very big difference on high level summons but if someone wants to use 88 pick points to get that benefit then let them.

 

Different character builds means more diversity in game. I think more diversity in game means it is more interesting and more enjoyable so we would not only have a better game but more players too.

 

Tirun

[Snosrap]

Let me just as after all the post that radus suggestion is the best thing that ever happened to the summoning skill.....PLEASE DO AS YOU SUGGESTED BOSS.

 

Snos out.

[Entropy]

Done already

[Blodoks]

Tested some puma vs puma with L33t.

At the end, the comment was: "pretty even".

 

Stats: sum 103 (charm 12) vs sum 25 (charm 6).

 

[Entropy]

Yes, but try with high end monsters, and not summon vs summon (that doesn't work well due to the low def).

 

Try this:

Go on the test server with 2 friends.

Summon a dragon to attack your friend.

Then let the other friend summon a dragon (to attack the same friend).

See how it works.

[TirunCollimdus]

Entropy I was just wondering. Is charm going to have any extra bonus percentage at all or just give double summons when your luck is good as usual? I know the new system as you suggested matches up pretty evenly with the old but having more reason to increase charm seems like a good idea to me. Giving extra percentage through charm would not super power the summons so I don't think it would hurt and it might help. Diversity is the spice of gaming after all.

 

Tirun

[Tempest]

so no real advantage except on high lvl monster vs players...

now make dragon 50% cheaper and i luv u

EDIT: seriously.. 120k + saving stone is a bit expensiv if you compare 6 giants to it. even the 3k health doesn't make it up.

Edited June 8, 2008 by Tempest