Bush to veto waterboarding ban

[Visvate]

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN0737119220080308

 

Could someone please capture him and send over here. I could give him free tasting of hes own methods and good ol kick on nuts.. (with steel caps boots)

 

-ViS

[JohnnyFrog]

"controversial interrogation techniques"

 

what a pretty way to describe torture

[Vanyel]

Ultimate hypocrisy.

Can't agree more with:

President Bush's veto will be one of the most shameful acts of his presidency

[tork_unib]

Where is Lee Harvey Oswald, now that we really need him?

[sora_barzahd]

Maybe I'm just stupid, but what is wrong per say about torturing our enemies for information?

[Ateh]

Maybe I'm just stupid, but what is wrong per say about torturing our enemies for information?

 

I think the main thing that is wrong with torture is that it is fucking evil .

 

And I think you answered your own question with the first four words.

 

 

* quick edit *

 

Another thing that is just wrong, is the fact that at the same time as declaring another country has Weapons of Mass Destruction, and has used those to kill innocent civilians, the very same countrys that point the finger then go ahead and DO EXACTLY that, kill Innocent Civilians with weapons of mass destruction. Just me or does anyone else smell the hypocrisy here?

Edited March 8, 2008 by Ateh

[Shujral]

Where is Lee Harvey Oswald, now that we really need him?

 

 

thats the kind of comment that could get you in trouble...

[JohnnyFrog]

Maybe I'm just stupid, but what is wrong per say about torturing our enemies for information?

 

OUR enemies? As far as i'm aware most of these people haven't been through any sort of due process to determine any sort of criminal/terrorist activity... CIA says you are a bad guy and off you go.

 

The US signed up to the geneva convention along with most other countries outlawing this kind of treatment of other humans as you can read.

 

Apart from torture being a very nasty thing in itself, if you actually read the originally posted article, it's also reckoned to be a pretty unreliable method of getting information.

[anima]

New scientist has had a lot to say on this recently, maybe its biased and doesn't give the whole view but its the only thing ive really red on the subject.

 

nearly every attempt to evaluate the effectiveness of torture has found it to be wholly ineffective. there is often no way to tell whether the person is telling the truth and a lot of people dont come up with any information anyway. by the time the pain reaches a point where a person will become willing to discose very important information they are in no state to remember any details and the information is completely faulty.

 

so if it doesn't work, its illegal and the majority, barring people like sora_barzahd, think it is wrong to do it, why do it?!?

 

in the so called "land of the free" i dont think torturing someone without a fair trial to even prove they have done anything wrong is acceptable

 

I hope the UK government stops aiding the US in this process, even just refuelling planes used in the process is wrong.

[Vanyel]

Honestly, what's the fucking difference if it is effective or not?!

Edited March 8, 2008 by Vanyel

[Entropy]

What's wrong with it?

Well, besides for the irrelevant fact that it is evil and fucked up (and it doesn't always work), there are a few more wrong things:

1. US claims it's a force for good, freedom and democracy. Not that killing 1 million civilians in Iraq is good, but at least they were claiming those 'collateral damages' were accidents. But now it is official, US endorses torture, so it can't be a force for good, no matter how you put it.

2. Next time an American citizen (soldier or civilian) gets captured by the enemy, I would expect that person to be tortured in the same way by the enemy, because what moral authority does America that someone else doesn't have?

[tork_unib]

Where is Lee Harvey Oswald, now that we really need him?

 

thats the kind of comment that could get you in trouble...

 

Sorry, but i do feel that Bush & his administration are despicable. I'm simply speaking my mind on the subject, perhaps I should simply shut up before "something" happens to me.

[Llynara]

Have you actually read the bill he vetoed? You're assuming that he only vetoed the water boarding (which I don't think anyone is "for"), but there were a host of other things attached to that bill, in typical Congressional style. Sometimes the things they attach to a bill have nothing to do with the actual bill itself. Look at all the bloat and ridiculous pet projects they manage to sneak in on a regular basis. It's ridiculous. Since the Pres (no matter who he is), doesn't have a line item veto, he's got the reject the whole thing. I'm not defending or condemning Pres Bush's actions, just pointing out that things aren't always as simple as they seem, especially in politics. His hands may have well been tied by the other things attached to that bill.

Llyn

Edited March 8, 2008 by Llynara

[SL7yz0r]

What's wrong with it?

Well, besides for the irrelevant fact that it is evil and fucked up (and it doesn't always work), there are a few more wrong things:

1. US claims it's a force for good, freedom and democracy. Not that killing 1 million civilians in Iraq is good, but at least they were claiming those 'collateral damages' were accidents. But now it is official, US endorses torture, so it can't be a force for good, no matter how you put it.

2. Next time an American citizen (soldier or civilian) gets captured by the enemy, I would expect that person to be tortured in the same way by the enemy, because what moral authority does America that someone else doesn't have?

When Americans get captured by our terrorist enemies, they usually get tortured/killed anyway.

Tortured in ways much worse than getting water dripped on them.

 

OH NOEZ TEH WATER!!! Come on guys, this is legit!! So is cold room temperature and any other techniques used by the cia to make the terrorist's lives uncomfortable during their stay here. This is not torture.

[Infamous]

dripping water on someone is actually torture, 1 drop at a time makes you insane after a couple hours / day's.

 

anyway i see some anti-bush comments while the people who post that are against torture.. Bush is against the torture too according to the newsflash.. learn 2 read k?

[Sikaflex]

Maybe I'm just stupid, but what is wrong per say about torturing our enemies for information?

 

You make it sound quite easy.

 

How can you be exactly sure that you're trying to extract information from right person? A person who really doesn't have the information will do just the same thing as a person who doesn't want to give the information - he'll say he doesn't know. And it isn't that clear either as who are the real enemies, and who are just made to look much worse than they actually are in order to keep the weapons trade running. It's the mainstay of Western economy, dealing arms.

[peino]

Waterboarding is torture under US law, US military law, international law (to which the US is a signatory) and the Geneva Conventions (to which the US is a signatory). Under all those bodies of law, torture (including waterboarding) is illegal. This is not some based-only-on-opinion thing. Waterboarding is on the lists of acts that are torture and illegal, according to the laws, and has been for a very long time.

 

By endorsing waterboarding, Bush is endorsing torture, and violating the international laws that the US is bound to obey by its own treaties, and violating US law which Bush, as president, swore to uphold. This makes Bush, Cheney, and all the other woodland critters in his adminstration, criminals.

 

And for those who don't know, waterboarding is not the mythical "water torture" of slow drips. It involves tying the victim down, blindfolding him so he can't see what you are doing, stuffing a cloth into his mouth so he can't breathe freely, and then pouring large amounts of water over the cloth and his face (including nose). If you did it without the cloth, he would drown and die in minutes. The cloth slows down the water, but it becomes quickly soaked, and the water still drips into the victim's throat, as well as pouring freely up his nose. The victim cannot breathe because he is being slowly drowned. They call it "simulated drowning" but it's really just slow drowning, which the torturers can interrupt and restart as they please. There is a video of it (I think it's a military training video but I'm not sure who released it - the military or a watchdog group; it's been in the media about this issue for several years; it is very upsetting to watch). Also one of the head officials of the US Justice Department volunteered to undergo it, under US military supervision, to see for himself whether it is torture or not. He came back and said yes, absolutely, no question or doubt, it is torture. He said it was the most horrible and terrifying experience of his life, that his body reacted as if he was dying (with total panic) even though he knew for a fact the people doing it would not let him die. He also said there is no way it is not torture and no way it could be legal. Bush fired him.

 

Bush vetoed that bill because he wants to torture people, and he wants to torture people because he has the mental capacity of a small child, unable to grasp the reality of what he is doing. If anyone has ever seen the movie "A Christmas Story", you'll understand when I say we have little Ralphie as our president.

Edited March 8, 2008 by peino

[Entropy]

anyway i see some anti-bush comments while the people who post that are against torture.. Bush is against the torture too according to the newsflash.. learn 2 read k?

 

RTFA, k?

[The_Piper]

Well.. torture was a good thing in europe, centuries ago.

 

It was the time, when ppl started to live in houses/cities over here. They didnt live in clans anymore, everybody was somehow free to move and to life where s/he wants to.

 

And so the old clan system didnt work anymore.

 

Because here were no clans anymore.

 

So ppl were thinking how to bring back justice, coz negotiations between clans didnt work anymore, caused by the absense of clans.

 

Which was a quite fair thing. With torture, done by a given ritual, you have a way to find out the truth.

 

Liike, who is a witch, who murdered whom, and so on.

 

The torture was a good thing, because it replaced the tribal law in europe and there was a justice at least, which followed some rules and had a chance to find out the truth.

 

 

Anyways, later, in the 17th/18th century ppl found out, that the earth is not flat, and that the stories, the church was telling are nothing like bullshit and it might not to be a good idea to wave around with a bible and burn witches.

 

And that torture is not really a method to retrieve the truth. It just doesnt work.

 

So, if some americans still believe, that torture is a good way to retrieve the truth, i cant help them.

 

They just missed the last 200 or 300 years.

 

Should i say now something about why some ppl went to America and left Europe?

 

Should i say now something about why the US left their isolation and decided to fight in 2 world wars to spread the ideas of freedom and democracy?

 

And, how does that fit together with torture, spreading democracy and human rights?

 

I just have the impression, that some americans are just 2-300 years behind us with knowledge, moral and behaviour.

 

At least, the Bushies are...

 

Just my 2 euro-cents.

 

Piper

[anima]

when i said it didn't work it was not the only reason im against it but if it it did work i could at least understand why people did it.

Edited March 9, 2008 by anima

[Infamous]

anyway i see some anti-bush comments while the people who post that are against torture.. Bush is against the torture too according to the newsflash.. learn 2 read k?

 

RTFA, k?

 

no, isgud jus reeding title

 

anyway i guess i learned what veto is.

[Entropy]

http://flickr.com/photos/jarnocan/274002001/sizes/l/

[Ateh]

When Americans get captured by our terrorist enemies, they usually get tortured/killed anyway.

Tortured in ways much worse than getting water dripped on them.

 

OH NOEZ TEH WATER!!! Come on guys, this is legit!! So is cold room temperature and any other techniques used by the cia to make the terrorist's lives uncomfortable during their stay here. This is not torture.

 

 

you are such a retard , you know I hope one day when you grow up in a world run by facist ''democratic peace makers '' that when you and your family are bombed into oblivion for the crime of living in a terrorist state that you dont fucking complain about it and in fact sing your national anthem while you are being tortured. You seriously make me sick.

 

* edit * And also who the fuck are you to say anyone is a terrorist or not ? In fact, if you believe everything you hear on fox news then god bless you son you are seriously as ignorant as you come across. This whole '' terrorist '' thing is the biggest pile of bullshit the world has been forced to listen to in A LONG LONG time. Wake up little boy , if you think its OK to torture another human being , dont be surprised when 20-30 years down the line , the definition of Terrorist has become ANYONE who disagrees with the State.

 

please someone tell me its not just me that gets so sickened by slyzors posts

Edited March 9, 2008 by Ateh

[The_Piper]

I would have used other words, but i agree.

 

If you want to find out more, for example, try to find out things about Menachem Begin. Once a terrorist, later a freedom fighter. Funny, isnt it?

 

Just always measure with 2 weights, as it fits for you and be prepared of the reaction of the rest of the world.

 

Some would just call you idiots, others just will kill you.

 

Its all up to your own.

 

Piper

[ShYne]

I agree with sl7yz0r on this one, when we get captured we are usually shot,beheaded or beaten to death. Water is is a little slap on the wrist. Would you rather let the terrorist get away with some information that will risk lives, or would you waterboard him to save lives?