LoGG and your hyperbags

[Tarnbriar]

If I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. I created a new poll to find out.

[Addienne]

As posted today on our forums:

 

First of all guys, I am so very sorry for all that has happened, maybe I have made a mistake of judgment and am not suitable to be a guild leader and should resign. It was never my intention to damage any of your reputation. I have tried my best to explain my vision and reasons why and what regarding hyperbags and treasure hunts, which I still feel as being part of the game as intended, and is played by many players, but its like talking to a waterfall. I was unaware that treasure hunts were considered to breaking the law, something I still have found no proof for, but allas. I can understand that perhaps some of you now have a difficult time online because of this, so as you wish I shall step down and leave LoGG to prevent any more damage to any of you.

 

Nardo

 

 

I think Nardo, as guild leader, and our inner community(guild) rules as they are, represent perfectly our individual politics and views about this game. We all agree on the fact that "treasure hunting" is not a crime, so our rules stand for our opinion and our acts.

I dont think therefore that we should change our minds, or our rules, because of others. If everybody would ACT as that part of community which condemns treasure hunting TENDS TO ACT LIKE, maybe then this could be considered a crime, but this will never ever happen.

So, if hb-s couldnt be taken, this would cause a major split between high-level and small players, because high lvl ppls can access much more maps, they can explore more places, and they have more resources, and hb-s would become cheap storages. Extra slots, extra time for mixing and experience, not having to walk to sto and back again...just think about it! If they have this extra possibility, they at least should have to be forced to calculate with the risk that they could loose that treasure, this way equity comes back and this is correct.

I got bored with this whole thing, and i dont think we should get involved anymore in fights, we are like this, it is not neceary that everybody loves us. Who doesnt like it, it's their own trouble, u cant always please everyone.

 

I am proud of being LoGG.

Addienne, member of LoGG

[sadarar]

As posted today on our forums:

 

First of all guys, I am so very sorry for all that has happened, maybe I have made a mistake of judgment and am not suitable to be a guild leader and should resign. It was never my intention to damage any of your reputation. I have tried my best to explain my vision and reasons why and what regarding hyperbags and treasure hunts, which I still feel as being part of the game as intended, and is played by many players, but its like talking to a waterfall. I was unaware that treasure hunts were considered to breaking the law, something I still have found no proof for, but allas. I can understand that perhaps some of you now have a difficult time online because of this, so as you wish I shall step down and leave LoGG to prevent any more damage to any of you.

 

Nardo

 

 

The way I see it.

 

Game rules - closest thing to RL is the physical laws of the universe. Hacking, using autonomous software, "slave" alts etc would all not be able to happen in real life, so are banned by game rules. Unfortunately game software is not programmed so well as the natural universe, so such rules are needed. Other game rules are needed to keep completely obnoxious idiots out for all our beneift, but generally the game rules keep people playing within the game design.

 

Community Rules - The law and order aspect of the game. As in real life, you can choose to obey or not these rules. Absolutely free choice for you. Just the same, it is the community's free choice to see your behaviour and punish you in what way it sees fit. Maybe some would PK, some would not trade, some would bagjump, whatever.

 

It's all about right from wrong. In RL, you can physically walk into a shop, pick up a $10,000 watch and run without paying. Some poor guy has to pay for the watch, but if it is not you, who cares if it is the shop owner, the insurance company or whatever? Legal on a physical level, but morally wrong for sure, and *society* would punish you if you are caught.

 

 

A hyperbag with hours of somebody's work in is similar. If someone thinks that it is fine to just pick up someones work and take it for yourself just because it is OK within the game rules, then I would, personally, question the integrity of that individual. If a guild has an open policy of allowing (even admiring) the active seeking and taking of these bags, then for my money, that guild is not t o be trusted in any way. Just as you would not expect to receive punishment for the theft, so I would not expect any repurcusions should I decline a trade with one of your guildies based upon his tag, or decline help in ay other way. That is how community law works.

[Nardo Lala]

If I would like to hold a contest where I would hide some treasures in hyper bags, would I be held responsible for the ones searching for it for being considered criminals?

 

To get one thing straight I am against theft as much as anyone. When the skeleton and skull keys were created they were intended to be as they are: as soon as you sent your bag into hyperspace you loose the ownership of it. This is not running into a store and robbing people. This is about playing a game, and part of the game as intended.

 

Treasure hunts, to my standards, and how many play this, are like this: you pick a random selected map, lets say today with the letter X, pick a random selected cave, pick a random location or what you think is best and start digging with the keys you could afford. Just like being on the beach, sometimes you dig up a seashell, sometimes a boot, most of the times nothing, and sometimes, only sometimes, something that you never expected. For the ones who have never tried it, beware it is possible addictive.

 

When you do so, and that is what I also state on our house rules since the beginning of the creation of the keys, is that you are free to do so with your ‘treasure’ as you like: you cover it up again, throw it in the sea or put in your pocket. Never does it say that the bag should be taken. Our members are grown up people with a sense of decency and a bit of brains. But if this member do want to play this part of the game, as was intended, and grab what they found they are again free to decide this option if they want to do so, without being classified being unlawful, and a clear conscious. Just like being on the beach.: hyper bags have no owners.

[Tarnbriar]

To get one thing straight I am against theft as much as anyone. When the skeleton and skull keys were created they were intended to be as they are: as soon as you sent your bag into hyperspace you loose the ownership of it. This is not running into a store and robbing people. This is about playing a game, and part of the game as intended.

I don't see how that is any different than regular bagjumping. The ability to steal is intentionally coded into the game and is an important part of the game. For example, one of the harvest events is teleportation, which is designed to give thieves a chance to steal any bags harvesters may have dropped. Likewise death would be meaningless if there weren't any players who stole deathbags.

 

Even though theft is allowed, and part of the game, players can still try to prevent it. That's part of the game as well. To protect ourselves from theft, we need to know who we can trust not to take our things and who we can't trust. That's the purpose of the Outlaws forum. Outlaws shouldn't be disliked as people. We should just know that those are the people we can't trust.

 

LoGG has a policy that allows its members to steal hyperbags. That means that if any of our other guilds is working on a guild project, and sees a LoGG member around, then we need to be wary, because we can't trust your guild not to steal the ingredients in the hyperbag that we've spent hours gathering. That means people need to be warned about LoGG, and it makes a post in Outlaws highly appropriate. No matter what justifications you offer for what you do, we still need to be warned about you.

 

My new poll is running about even, with a small majority of respondents saying that intentionally opening other people's hyperbags is bagjumping. I'm surprised by the complexity and diversity of the opinions on the subject. For me, this is a simple application of the Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do onto you." I certainly don't want anyone to steal a hyperbag that my guild has invested hours into making; so I think its wrong for me to steal hyperbags from others.

[jamincollins]

To get one thing straight I am against theft as much as anyone.

Then you'll probably get a kick out of this:

 

[23:51:30] [PM from Sylvester: insidious just grued out. Wanna poof his hyper? =P]

[23:51:34] [PM to Sylvester: kk]

[23:51:58] [PM from Sylvester: the ladder down the ground at the fluff spawn]

[23:54:48] [PM from Sylvester: bring like 5 keys, just incase I dont have the exact coords]

[23:55:24] Sylvester: hey

[23:55:28] BleedingSoul: ;p

[23:55:29] Sylvester was notified, now wait to see if s/he wants to trade with you.

[23:55:32] Sylvester: not that one =)

[23:56:03] Sylvester: lol

[23:56:42] [PM from Sylvester: =D]

[23:57:40] [PM to Sylvester: easily 20k+ stuff]

[00:01:59] [PM from Sylvester: Its a junk bag]

 

That's right, Sylvester solicited help in poofing -AR-'s bag.

 

Edit: just to clarify, the bag was in fact poofed, all contents lost.

Edited September 10, 2007 by jamincollins

[kailomonkey]

It was brought to my attention that some people have claimed that Sylvester watched for coordinates of big hyperbags and stole them. I am here not only as a character witness, but with some testimonial evidence also, in Sylvester of LoGG's defence.

 

I have known him for over a year and I know people even closer to him than I, and none of us consider Sylvester to be a liar. When he joined LoGG he was open and honest with his friends that he would sometimes search for hyperbags in keeping with his new guild's rule (quoted aboce). He never stalked hyperbags of people around him, however, and merely used it as a 'treasure hunt'.

 

I myself believe that if he found a bag (which incidentally he almost never had until now) it was still stealing, and I continuously tried to counsel him away from it. But it is true that this is a game, and Radu wished there to be consequence to leaving things unattended, by death or whatever means, so I could not convince him that it was wrong.

 

However, whether he is wrong or not in taking hyperbags, which ofcourse the outlaws is an appropriate place to post about it, I and those who know him do not believe he stalked any bag and lied about it. He may have worked along-side you in the iron/coal cave, but he did not enter the FE cave until most recently. I know this because he asked me where people make FEs in that maps between these dates [Aug 9 to Aug 24].

 

It was after these dates that he found various bags, including the large one, by 'treasure hunting'.

 

In my opinion, treasure hunting is utterly wrong. But that is what he did, he did not stalk and plot for a prticular bag, and did not steal from people he had just been working with. It does not matter to me which is which, but to those that it does, this is the truth.

 

I am sorry for not coming forward sooner, I was told about the situation but wanted nothing to do with it. If someone chooses to break the community rules it is their mess to deal with. But since I had evidence that signifier that Sylvester is not a liar, just a now outlawed treasure hunter, I had to come forward with this truth.

 

 

In closing, as I have said, I never wanted to be involved in this issue from the moment I heard of it. After this post I will not be revisiting. I hope all following it can find the information they need here.

 

EDIT: I copied and pasted the wrong dates, trying to be accurate ^^ The dates shown are now correct.

Edited September 11, 2007 by kailomonkey

[sylvester]

You guys blacklisted me and redtagged my guild.

In fact, I just left another of your bags alone this morning, though this was only because I didn't know it belonged to you until you returned to it.

As you can see, we play on equal rules.

 

I once told insidious that Im not taking bags that I know who created them, except if that person is someone that I dislike.

 

I have nothing more to say. I think that my guild will not complain about me playing your rules in this game. Im ready to take any consequences if they do not agree with me.

[jamincollins]

You guys blacklisted me and redtagged my guild.

Yes, for your previous actions. We also tried to discuss this with your guild to come to some kind of resolution, at the persistence of Suncie. However, you disrupted those talks and brought them to an end. We are now simply seeing your true colors.

 

There were a few different players that saw me with opportunity to take bags you'd created since this thread began. All of them were left untouched.

[Suncie]

You guys blacklisted me and redtagged my guild.

Yes, for your previous actions. We also tried to discuss this with your guild to come to some kind of resolution, at the persistence of Suncie. However, you disrupted those talks and brought them to an end. We are now simply seeing your true colors.

 

There were a few different players that saw me with opportunity to take bags you'd created since this thread began. All of them were left untouched.

 

 

This is now a personal vendetta and of no interest to anyone else anymore.

Please close this thread.

 

Thank you

 

Suncie

LoGG is grooooovyyyyy

[2coolfool]

The original author of a post or thread can request deletion. Everyone else cannot demand threads or others' posts be closed or deleted at their whim.

 

http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.p...37030&st=80 post #86

 

Just posting what seems relevant.

[Vanyel]

I would suggest we do not stray from topic anymore. Private wars --> take to PMs.

[WiseGemmerKat]

WiseGemmerKat did you read ttlanhils post? Everyone as has been stated from the beginning of this thread everyone knows that Entropy thinks there is nothing wrong with taking Hbags. That fact is completely and totally irrelevant on the outlaw forum. The outlaw forum has nothing to do with the game rules or what Entropy thinks is okay or is not okay. The outlaw forum was specifically created to give the community, not Entropy, a voice in what is acceptable and what is not. That is why this was posted in outlaws and has nothing to do with bans which is where people who break Entropy's rules go.

 

If you agree with Entropy that is great. You are free to do so. The majority of the community however disagrees with you and that is why this is an important thing to post on outlaws. Please lets drop the Entropy says it is okay stuff which does not belong here.

 

TirunCollimdus

CoGM of PATH

Perseverance And Tolerance Honored

 

 

I do apologize and just want to add that I don't always agree with what Entopy says. I only wanted to state the fact that the hyperbags are seen as "treasure"! There is no nametag on that bag and if you leave stuff in there of vallue to you when you hyper a bag that you worked on for hours, days or months even, you should know that it's "loot" for someone that finds it!!!!

 

Lesson: NEVER EVER LEAVE STUFF OF VALLUE THAT SOMEONE MIGHT TAKE WHAT YOU WORKED HARD ON!! Just leave the ings but take the HE's, FE's, Bars ect out and put it in storage!!!

 

I did that and lost a hyper because of my own stupidity!! I am responsible for my own actions when i clicked the skull key to "lock" it! Just want to say as a last thought: If someone knew about a hyper that's been worked on for hours that in itself is regarded as theft and not a hyper that's been found by accident! If I myself would find a hyperbag I would ask around who's it is and give it back or lock it again.

 

Hope I made myself clear and don't want to make enemies here!!!

 

[Troger]

Maybe i will be bit offtopic, but i would like to see a pined topic withe communty rules in here at the outlaws forum, ofcourse if that is possible!!!!

 

Troger

League of Groovy Gentlemen

[Scratch]

Treasure hunting for hyper bags is nothing more than a glorified term for bagjumping & is a reprehensible act. This kind of thing makes it difficult for people to help each other.

 

case in point:

Someone asked me to watch thier bag while they ran back to storage to get something. I step on the bag & it is loaded with FP, FE, bars, swords & gc. He gets back, takes his bag back & I go my merry way thinking I did my good deed for the day. Next time I log in, I get an angry PM from him accusing me of stealing his hyper bag.

 

It would seem that a treasure hunter popped his bag & I get the grief. Maybe it was the Logg treasure hunters?

 

In Sylvester's defense, he was probably just trying to move up in his guild & thought perhaps a bloated hyper bag would help. Have you seen how much Logg charges to move up in thier guild? Holy Frijoles!

 

http://www.paradoxius.speedlinq.nl/page8.html

[Troger]

Scratch ... if you think that those charges are a must in my guild then your wrong...

It is only for fun, if you want you may make it if you dont then leave it ... And you absolulty dont know where those "charges" are going!!!!

And yes i know that this will happen...from now and those bags that dissapeared before will be put in our debt...

 

One question, do you know a member of LoGG ?? have you talked with one of them?? have you met one?? I doubt!

 

Troger

League of Groovy Gentlemen

 

Edit: And you know that nobody is forced to be in a guild or to join a guild...and we are an invite only guild!

Edited September 12, 2007 by Troger

[Vanyel]

Maybe i will be bit offtopic, but i would like to see a pined topic withe communty rules in here at the outlaws forum, ofcourse if that is possible!!!!

 

Troger

League of Groovy Gentlemen

 

 

There is no such possibility.

There are game rules and forums rules pinned here.

There is at least one argument against pinning any community rules. That is, who would write them and what who would legitimate them. Moreover, pinning those rules would give them an illusion of being official, while they're not.

All in all, I don't think it is possible at all.

[Troger]

Maybe i will be bit offtopic, but i would like to see a pined topic withe communty rules in here at the outlaws forum, ofcourse if that is possible!!!!

 

Troger

League of Groovy Gentlemen

 

 

There is no such possibility.

There are game rules and forums rules pinned here.

There is at least one argument against pinning any community rules. That is, who would write them and what who would legitimate them. Moreover, pinning those rules would give them an illusion of being official, while they're not.

All in all, I don't think it is possible at all.

thanks! pls delete that post in wich i requested this pined topic with the rules

 

Troger

Edited September 12, 2007 by Troger

[Scratch]

 

One question, do you know a member of LoGG ?? have you talked with one of them?? have you met one?? I doubt!

 

Troger

League of Groovy Gentlemen

 

Edit: And you know that nobody is forced to be in a guild or to join a guild...and we are an invite only guild!

 

Yes, as a matter of fact I do know a member of Logg. They were invited to join Logg while still a member of my guild, which makes Logg a preditory guild.

 

And to head off the sad excuse that she wasn't happy in my guild:

As I told Nardo, I have had several people approach me to join while still in another guild & I have always told them to have a talk with their GM & try to work it out. The fact that she didn't express her unhappy feelings to me before or after leaving my guild suggests the invite was nefarious.

[sylvester]

And to head off the sad excuse that she wasn't happy in my guild:

Of course she wasnt. Thats what we have been told too.

 

About our internal affairs, they are absolutely non of your concerns. We are open to questions from ppl that we are interested in. If you had been one of them you would have known.

 

If you want to insult our guild because you didnt manage your own, go ahead in PM.

[Vanyel]

I'm slowly getting tired with the topic permemently derailed. Keep it on topic or the thread is getting locked.

[Devani]

I was trying to stay out of this but some things have really been bothering me.

 

 

Our guild recently (9/2) had the pleasure of having a rather large hyperbag stolen by someone we thought we could trust (Sylvester of LoGG). We had worked around this player for quite some time, even helping him on occasion.

The only modification in the following logs is the removal of the actual map name where this occurred.

 

IM's between myself and a guildy

To: just saw sylvester going toward the **** cave

To: heading in to check it out

From: hehehe

From: sure I'll see him here soonish then

To: just peeking in to see if our bag is ok

 

Why be concerned about someone heading to a cave when you say they have been there working beside you?

 

I was there the first time you guys arived and no one said anything. Do you really think if we knew it was yours we would have taken it with you on the scene? Why did you keep quiet at the time?

This is so silly, it is a game we all enjoy.

 

The statement below does not answer the question above.

 

 

The only bag open at the time I arrived was the bag that you had moved our bag into. It wasn't until after your guild left and we checked our bag that we discovered ours had been taken. Then, searching the surrounding area square by square (because we didn't want to believe that LoGG had taken it) did we arrive at the location you had occupied with your bag. This is why I didn't confront you at the time. However, as soon as we were sure that you had taken it, I contact LoGG (via Visvate) about the matter.

 

 

[16:29:23] [PM to Nardo: he worked in the **** beside me at that VERY location several times]

 

 

Again why not open your bag to work on it if you trusted them and Sylv has been working there in that cave beside you as you say? If you were suspicious even, why not speak up then?

 

I know Sylvester very well, probably better them most in this game, and although I am against the treasure hunting, which he is well aware of, your own words are contradictory.

Yet you call him a liar.

I do know he has worked in another cave on a daily basic and Incidious was there often because I have been there with him at times. I know he has not made FEs in a long time, (since the spring atleast), he use to make them with me, but never where you were at. If he can afford keys to treasure hunt he can afford to buy FEs and he has had ppl making FEs for him.

 

Yes Sylvester is a treasure hunter but he is not a liar. I do not believe he ever stalked your bag, nor worked beside you in the cave where he found the FEs

 

He did give the stuff back without any arguments and he did not have to. How many bag jumpers do that?

Yet you still keep complaining... which is beginning to resembles harassment.

 

As I stated he knows I see his treasure hunting as bag jumping, but it is a part of the game. I know many of the LoGG members and I trust them all, They will not take stuff from their friend if they know who's it is.

Edited September 14, 2007 by Devani

[fyrrflyy]

So it was personal.

No, I'm not sure where the disconnect in communicating this is. It would have been personal, and this posting against an individual, if only Sylvester had been involved. However, multiple members of your guild were involved, so this is not personal.

 

I believe your guild's actions were dishonorable and the behavior of outlaws.

 

Our guild is in the clear. You have not approached us at all but for the postings on the forum. Visvate is not here, and not a GM.

 

You got your bag back, right? What if a PKguild have discovered it?

I'm curious, what is it that makes you think just because it's a pk guild, it's gonna steal an h-bag?

PK'ing and outlaw are two different things, trying to generalize one into the other is ridiculous.

[Infamous]

if you don't want to get your hyperbag bagjumped then don't make one...

[Scratch]

I don't think anyone in Logg actually understands why their "treasure hunting" policy has upset many people. It is not the policy of bagjumping that is wrong but the attitude towards it. You can't claim to be good honest members of EL & then rob people blind when their backs are turned. If you want to "treasure hunt", then own it & when you get red tagged for it, wear it with pride.

 

As for the issue I brought up:

I couldn't give a flying rats ass that Logg recruited 1 of my guild members. It was the attitude toward the recruitment policy. Logg is an invite only guild & an honest invite only guild would only invite guildless players. Form claimed it was not Logg policy to recruit players from other guilds but Nardo did just that.