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LoGG and your hyperbags

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The bag was made by -AR- members and it was purposely found and raided by LoGG members. Only one person stealing from the bag would have been a personal issue with -AR- and that one person. One of the thieves in question was the LoGG guild master. This made Blackthorne go to his friend Visvate to try for a positive resolution. He got what he was after. His stuff and gold used to find the stolen stuff were removed from that area.

 

The reason for this thread is because LoGG condones the theft in the first place even if Visvate did convince LoGG to give back the stuff that was stolen. Radu supports hbag hunting. He also supports branching and any other activity that keeps money going out of the game or deters any type of mass production. Your policy is against the community rules and that is what the outlaw forum is for it isn't for breaking game rules. That is the ban section.

 

TirunCollimdus

CoGM of PATH

Perseverance And Tolerance Honored

 

*edit*

Had not read Blackthorne's new post. That chat log specifically goes to prove that everything being said about LoGG is absolutely correct. If LoGG wants to be trusted then they need to conform to community rules.

Edited by TirunCollimdus

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As an add to my former post, this whole topic is getting on my nerves.

 

BT, you had your stuff returned and should be very glad. If Sylvester really wanted to steal this whole crap and cause trouble to you, you'd never had those FEs returned. IMO, LoGG is free to take any bag they want and claim as theirs. It's a risk you take and that other are allowed to suck their profit from. I don't have a problem with it.

 

Also, you should thank Sylvester for returning it all. There are other people (e.g.: myself) who are evil enough to let a bag like that go p00f into a black hole. He only took it since he didn't know who it belonged to. As soon as you told him it was yours, he returned it. I'd say he was rather kind.

 

I don't see why you're making all this fuss about it.

 

-Blee

 

EDIT: If I know a hbag belongs to a friend of mine, I will of course not p00f it. But if I find it at random, byebye.

Edited by BleedingSoul

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As an add to my former post, this whole topic is getting on my nerves.

No one is forcing you to read it.

 

IMO, LoGG is free to take any bag they want and claim as theirs. It's a risk you take and that other are allowed to suck their profit from. I don't have a problem with it.

You may not have a problem with it, and yes they are free to do as they like within the rules of the game. However, I (and others) see their behavior as that of an outlaw.

 

Also, you should thank Sylvester for returning it all. There are other people (e.g.: myself) who are evil enough to let a bag like that go p00f into a black hole. He only took it since he didn't know who it belonged to. As soon as you told him it was yours, he returned it. I'd say he was rather kind.

Here we disagree. Destroying others work is (in my view) the behavior of an outlaw. Unless of course the work belongs to a declared enemy.

 

Sylvester did not return the bag due to us informing him it was ours. He knew who the bag belonged to before he took it. He's worked along side several guilds in that mine and I doubt any of them were at the time declared enemies of LoGG. The only thing he returned upon being confronted about the bag was the 10k FE and GC cost for the keys for us to recover it.

 

I don't see why you're making all this fuss about it.

I feel their behavior was deserving of an outlaw post. I would think I've made that clear by now.

 

edit: grammar

Edited by jamincollins

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Holy Mackerel on a stick! I have been one day out of town to come back and see that we are being covered with tar and feathers based on what? I honestly do not believe it. Flabbergasted does not even come close.

 

For those who are reading this and have not yet read our vision on hyper bags I strongly advise you to do so before you continue. You can find the link on top of the first page of this post. I also suggest you take a look on our house rules, where one can see that we have one of the toughest ones around. (The link for that is also on the first page) (apologies I am not very good in making these fancy links)

 

Yes, LoGG is an honorable guild, and so are each of our members, in the five years almost that I have been around here I, and the last two years that LoGG has existed, I think we have already proven that. There has not been one occurrence that could blemish our standard of playing. Each of our members rather gives their possessions or time to help or assist someone (be it a stranger or a friend) rather then to gain their own. Everyone who knows us cannot say otherwise. We are a bunch of curious, courteous and polite people.

 

Maybe we are different yes, we prefer to play this game I ALL its facets that his has to offer, and I strongly believe that the game is intended this way. Not for nothing our credo is “cooperation and friendship, exploring all skills and beyond”.

 

Thank heavens I have grown up and live my life with the values that one is innocent until proven guilty, which as can be read in some of the posts here before, is different from some players, who rather throw the first stone or burn the witch based on merely assumptions and prejudgment.

 

I am also very much opposed censorship of gameplay, where “the community” makes their own rules and decides where what can be done and how this game according to them can be played. Those players who think that this game is only made for themselves only. And if it does not suit their purpose…it’s…. and I am not talking about violating ANY of the game rules.

 

What’s next and where does that stop? Spawns are “owned” for 22 minutes max ? If I have a member who when he is ready wants to use a BroD should I stop him? Or even kick him from our guild? Hell no! Rosto’s should no longer be used in pk maps? Hell no. No dwarves allowed in snow covered maps? Hell No! No more then 3 players allowed to sit around a storage because wesayso inc. decides ? Hell No!

 

All skills and items developed for this game are meant to be used, in the spirit that the developers have intended. This includes in my vision, and where this is all about, the use of skeleton and skulls keys or hyper bags and with that the introduction of the possibility of having treasure hunts where intended to be used by the developers.

 

Funny enough everyone forgets what this is about. It is not about the actual digging up the treasure, but just the thrill or the kick of them finding. Most bags we find we leave alone, in fact more then 95%. Just like fishing some you throw back, some end up in the pan. It is NOT about the find, but the excitement of the possibility and of what could be there.

 

Once again, it does not mean that each and every bag is taken which is found. I have tried some of the suggestions based on the calculations he has revealed and in a square of 8 by 8 steps I found 3 bags, yes, they are still there. Yes I also make hyper bags and some of them disappeared, did I “Cry Wolf”? Grow up! Since then I just make sure that they will not be found.

 

I believe this part to the game is an exiting way to play, just like the lottery, and done in the spirit of the developers, its is also certainly not actively played by any of our members on a day to day basis (when its full moon?) and certainly not in guild form, but like every other way we play this game, I would like our members to have that possibility and freedom if they choose to.

 

I also believe in what I stand for and that reason I posted on our forums our guild’s vision, we are absolutely not a scam guild or outlaw guild and truly do not deserve to be mentioned here as such or even compared with. To all who leave their hyper bags in silly places and might find it gone one day I have nothing left to say.

 

Also truly disgusted by the way that Blackthorn has handled this, for he had not the courtesy to warn me that our discussion that evening (see first post) could be disclosed with the intention to put our guild to scrutiny publicly based on assumptions. (I would have improved my typing a bit, English is not my mother language and am sometimes not a very good “live” typer.) And I thank my guild members for their back up while I was away.

 

I think however enough has been said and kindly request this soap opera post to be locked, to everyone who thinks differently, don’t judge us without actually knowing us.

 

It is quests, adventures, contests and challenges what we do and what we are good in, today we were going to have an event to introduce our storebot Lumberjack to be of assistance to the public, but as you might can imagine I am cancelling this event for I am not in a party mood because all of this.

 

Nardo

 

The League of Groovy Gentlemen

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Normally I avoid issues like this, but I think it's about time I said something again...

I am also very much opposed censorship of gameplay, where “the community” makes their own rules and decides where what can be done and how this game according to them can be played. Those players who think that this game is only made for themselves only. And if it does not suit their purpose…it’s…. and I am not talking about violating ANY of the game rules.
First, as we all should know, bans is for game rules, and outlaws is for community rules. Now that's out of the way...

You wish to censor the playerbase to prevent them from having rules and standards of behaviour they expect people to follow?

You want to be able to play the game however you like, but other players aren't allowed to have a community and community standards? I hope the problem here is self-evident now.

What’s next and where does that stop?
To you: what's next, abolishing the police and laws IRL since they stop you doing whatever you feel like? (community rules are closer to RL laws than game rules, really).

 

You can agree with the community rules or not.

You can follow them; or not.

If you don't want to follow them, then what are you doing even reading this forum? Outlaws is here solely for people who break community rules.

If you don't want to follow them, then you accept the consequences. Like it or not, that's how it works, and you cannot change it (no matter what; at the basic level, you can either help/sell/buy/whatever with a person or not depending on if you like them. If there's a person on either end, which there is, then there's a social aspect. If you don't like that, then single-player games are for you).

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:mace: hi guys/girls

 

I've been watching this post and want to add my condolences(sry for mistakes in my typing) to the guilds involved...

 

I want to quote something i've read: Entropy quote:

 

My personal oppinion is that if you find one you should take it (unless if it belongs to a friend and you know from him about it).

 

Well, if you work so much and put it in a hyperspace bag, then you better make sure it's in a good hidden) place. Since finding the bags is so hard (and expensive), I think that those who find them should keep them. Of course, if they want to return them, then sure, it's nice of them, although I wouldn't hold them morally responsible if they don't.

 

Moral of the story through my eyes as i've lost a bag in said cave as well:

 

NEVER EVER keep that much vallue in a hyperbag!!! There's :) out there to take what you've been working on so hard for months :) ah..too late to :happy: your head on it!!! It's like burried treasure that you have found!!! If it was me who found the treasure i might've given the bag back if i knew who's it is.

 

Hope the lesson on this was well learned????

 

Hey...

Don't get me wrong here! Not taking any sides on this, i would've been mad as hell loosing that much but I think it's ones own fault if it gets hijacked with that much loot in a bag.

 

I would be mad at myself, it should be in storage where it's safe!!! :blush:

 

<edit>

Hey...

Don't get me wrong here! Learn editing your posts.

~Anshar

Edited by Anshar

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As you told ttlan the community rules are closer to rl rules then the game rules. lets take a look...

 

robbing a dead man(db stealing in game) yes crime

scamming somebody in rl (ingame scamming ) yes crime

but digging in a forest or in a cave or where ever you have the right to do so...for the sake of god that is not a crime(hbag searching ingame)

 

 

I was talking ingame with Blackthorne and yes i told him that i am sorry for this ... but that doesent mean that i dont agree with my guild rules and my guild politics.

 

you told that the community rules are made by the major part of the player base in this game...there was a poll made about the hbags and here is link and go and see the results...

and decide what is the community...the part that is whining all the forums over this or who has voted here and made this poll to stay this way.

 

 

Hyperspacebag poll

 

Troger

League of Groovy Gentlemen

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WiseGemmerKat did you read ttlanhils post? Everyone as has been stated from the beginning of this thread everyone knows that Entropy thinks there is nothing wrong with taking Hbags. That fact is completely and totally irrelevant on the outlaw forum. The outlaw forum has nothing to do with the game rules or what Entropy thinks is okay or is not okay. The outlaw forum was specifically created to give the community, not Entropy, a voice in what is acceptable and what is not. That is why this was posted in outlaws and has nothing to do with bans which is where people who break Entropy's rules go.

 

If you agree with Entropy that is great. You are free to do so. The majority of the community however disagrees with you and that is why this is an important thing to post on outlaws. Please lets drop the Entropy says it is okay stuff which does not belong here.

 

TirunCollimdus

CoGM of PATH

Perseverance And Tolerance Honored

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The majority of the community however disagrees with you and that is why this is an important thing to post on outlaws.

Actually, the silent majority (Me included) disagrees with you as pointed out by Troger. Now, the noisy minority keeps trying to make its way through it but it's still minority :)

 

Edit : Oh, there was only 1 g in Troger :icon13:

Edited by Itzalan

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you told that the community rules are made by the major part of the player base in this game...there was a poll made about the hbags and here is link and go and see the results...

and decide what is the community...the part that is whining all the forums over this or who has voted here and made this poll to stay this way.

 

 

Hyperspacebag poll

That poll deals with a completely different situation from what happened here. That poll asks what your responsibilities are if you accidentally open someone else's hyperbag. In that situation, most people don't think they have any responsibility to pay their money to close the bag or to spend time hunting down the owner. That's only common sense. Personally, I would get a key and close the bag, but its not reasonable to expect everyone to do that for you.

 

This situation is completely different. In this situation, someone intentionally opened, raided and moved someone else's hyperbag. That's just theft. It's allowed by the rules of the game, but there's nothing honorable about it.

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Also, you should thank Sylvester for returning it all. There are other people (e.g.: myself) who are evil enough to let a bag like that go p00f into a black hole. He only took it since he didn't know who it belonged to. As soon as you told him it was yours, he returned it. I'd say he was rather kind.

 

I don't see why you're making all this fuss about it.

 

-Blee

 

EDIT: If I know a hbag belongs to a friend of mine, I will of course not p00f it. But if I find it at random, byebye.

 

BleedingSoul, You would REALLY let a H-bag with 130,000 FE (worth 468,000gc) go POOF? This pretty much discredits anything you've said in this thread as INSANE. I give LoGG way more credit, their stance on H-bags has always been plain to see.

 

 

The ONLY problem I have with LoGG *is* their H-Bag policy. What did they expect to come of this policy in a social/community environment?? Sylvester probably would not have taken this bag, had he seen *ME* sitting on that bag (I would hope). We seem to get along well.

 

The one thing I would have done different in Sylvester's and LoGG's shoes, upon accidentally finding a massive bag, is SIT on it until someone came to claim it. To verify if it belonged to a friend or foe; then make my decision on keeping it. (A bag with that much FE is worth sitting on for quite a while; and mixing more FE to keep busy, in the mean-time.) Socially, I do not agree with H-bag hunts at all; and when I start bags, I key the spot to verify it is unclaimed.

 

Most actions against EL/Entropy/Developer rules are enforced by the software, thus their stance on H-Bags is OBVIOUS, and I agree with their stance fully. Yay for freedom! When it comes to existing in a community of other miners/mixers, your actions with H-bags determine your credibility and alignment; friend/foe. This thread is our community notification against H-bag hunting guilds. You have all been warned.

 

So, until LoGG has changed their policy on H-Bag hunts; I fully agree with my guild's (-AR-) red-tag status, and this thread. This red-tag is great; it let's me know my bags are generally not safe around them. If their policy on H-bags is changed, obviously our guilds have nothing more to argue about. Others players will also be more inclined to trust and help LoGG members as well.

 

To check LoGG's current bag-hunt policy, keep an eye on this URL: http://www.paradoxius.speedlinq.nl/page2.html Section: "Lost and Found"; I hope some sanity comes of this, since most guilds view H-bags and DBs as the same.

 

And I'd like to know the guilds voting in this famous H-bag hunt Poll; so I can red-tag them too.

 

Regards to all, (sorry I rarely read forums) :icon13:

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Bah, if they have fun doing those treasure hunts, so be it. What's the point in leaving a bag with 130k FEs anyway ? :icon13:

 

And I'd like to know the guilds voting in this famous H-bag hunt Poll; so I can red-tag them too.

You can start with Wing, thanks :)

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BleedingSoul, You would REALLY let a H-bag with 130,000 FE (worth 468,000gc) go POOF? This pretty much discredits anything you've said in this thread as INSANE. I give LoGG way more credit, their stance on H-bags has always been plain to see.

 

Sure. I'd let it go poof.

Am I insane? No, let's just say I would serve the community with prevention of overproduction? :icon13:

 

No, really. I would let it poof, because if I did so, I'd just be feeling evil at that very moment. And hey, it's the best way to learn things for those who lose it. The hard way. I don't make use of hyperbags and I know darn well why I don't use them.

 

See it like this, you lost 5 dollars on the street and I find it. Instead of buying myself some sweets, I rip the paper. Because I don't want what is not mine, but don't wanna bother finding out who's it is either. And suppose I should just make it impossible for that person to retrieve what is lost. Should look out for your stuff more closely. If you don't, do not cry when losing it.

 

I'd say my stance is quite clear too. This does, of course, not mean I spend my Sunday evenings looking for HBags or something. I'm just saying, if I would actually find a bag like that, this is what I'll do. But I don't actively look for em with this purpose.

 

-Blee

 

 

EDIT:

And I'd like to know the guilds voting in this famous H-bag hunt Poll; so I can red-tag them too.

 

Just noticed that. Reply to it, even tho it is offtopic:

I'm a one man guild, I guess you can w/e you want. LDW.

Edited by BleedingSoul

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Guys, no matter how entertaining posting here is for you. Please, do not stray from topic too much :icon13:

Edited by Anshar

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This situation is completely different. In this situation, someone intentionally opened, raided and moved someone else's hyperbag. That's just theft. It's allowed by the rules of the game, but there's nothing honorable about it.

In this case it is no difference at all. No one in LoGG had any idea of the location of that bag before it was found. Not either did I have the slightest idea of who was the one who made the FEs in the bag before Insidious told me it was him and I returned it all to him, including the money for the 44.66666(6) keys that had been spent finding the location of the bag that I had created.

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See it like this, you lost 5 dollars on the street and I find it. Instead of buying myself some sweets, I rip the paper. Because I don't want what is not mine, but don't wanna bother finding out who's it is either. And suppose I should just make it impossible for that person to retrieve what is lost. Should look out for your stuff more closely. If you don't, do not cry when losing it.

 

I'd say my stance is quite clear too. This does, of course, not mean I spend my Sunday evenings looking for HBags or something. I'm just saying, if I would actually find a bag like that, this is what I'll do. But I don't actively look for em with this purpose.

 

-Blee

 

Blee, While your view is quite entertaining, and fun. I still think you'd be insane to not keep 130,000 FE's without having to work 3-4 weeks for it. Lord know's I'd *BE* evil rather than feel evil for poofing it. :icon13: (only after making sure it was my enemy's bag; or somebody that I didn't mind becoming my enemy; but never keeping a freind's bag.) hehehe

 

We're not crying (especially since we found the bag). :) If I didn't find our H-bag I'd have only cried over a nice and cold beer; not in a public forum.

 

Through determination, I was able to discover the bag's new location. While keeping that much material in a bag is not well-advised, it's massive-size is the only reason the bag *was* recovered. It was impossible to conceal it's movement, or even it's 6 step short-relocation. Moving a bag of that size gets noticed by many people.

 

This topic is only a public campaign against actions we don't like in our neighborhood. Actions by people claiming they are the best-of neighbors, and can be trusted by all. Neighbors who claim they are completely "Honorable, Trustful, Respectful, and Groovy." We disagree with our neighbor's policy, and want to be sure our VALUED-neighbors act accordingly, by locking their doors, now that we have discovered this gossip-worthy information.

 

If LoGG was a WARing guild, stating publicly they "hunt fer yer-treasure, and screw ye all", we (-AR-) would have zero issue. I really like that there are guilds with THIS view. Some day, when I'm PK god (Muahaha); I may change my value system. But I will never fly my guild's friendly-flag, when I actually operate under the jolly-roger's principles. Arrrrr matey.

 

Regards

 

Edit stating that I'd never keep a friend's bag either; of which I consider Sylvester to be among.

Edited by insidious01

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This situation is completely different. In this situation, someone intentionally opened, raided and moved someone else's hyperbag. That's just theft. It's allowed by the rules of the game, but there's nothing honorable about it.

In this case it is no difference at all. No one in LoGG had any idea of the location of that bag before it was found. Not either did I have the slightest idea of who was the one who made the FEs in the bag before Insidious told me it was him and I returned it all to him, including the money for the 44.66666(6) keys that had been spent finding the location of the bag that I had created.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm glad to learn that you only accidentally happened upon the bag and that you weren't actively searching for a hyperbag to steal. I hope that means we agree that actively searching for hyperbags to open, raid and move would be outlaw behavior.

 

Another reason I'm glad you clarified is that I doubt that I am the only one who believed, after reading the logs in this thread, that you were actively searching for a hyperbag to steal. Some of the statements certainly lead to that erroneous impression. For instance, you stated that you don't have any hyperbags. What an amazing coincidence; the one time that you decided to create a hyperbag, you accidentally created it immediately on top of the bag that -AR- used for their guild project. Coincidences, of course, do happen. When, however, that coincidence is coupled with -AR- frequently observing you in the area while they were working on their project, the combination leads directly to an unfortunate conclusion. So, once again, I am glad that you clarified.

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No. I think you got it wrong Tarnbriar. I dont in any way get the impression from that poll that its about finding something by accident. If it does say so, correct me please.

 

EDIT: btw, please remind me about when I said that I never hide things in hyperspace, if thats what you mean by saying that I have no hyperbags. I wonder if your post isnt quite poorly relevant.

Edited by sylvester

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No. I think you got it wrong Tarnbriar. I dont in any way get the impression from that poll that its about finding something by accident. If it does say so, correct me please.

The answers clearly suggest that the poll is about hyperbags found by accident. The answers assume that “there is no way to know who it belongs to.” That assumption doesn't hold when you hunt for a bag that you saw someone else creating.

 

If you read the responses to the poll, you'll see a discussion started about intentionally hunting for hyperbags. The overwhelming majority of people who responded said it was wrong to intentionally hunt for them. One notable exception was Entropy, but his opinion was in the decided minority of respondents.

 

EDIT: btw, please remind me about when I said that I never hide things in hyperspace, if thats what you mean by saying that I have no hyperbags. I wonder if your post isnt quite poorly relevant.

 

I took that from Blackthorne quoting you here:

 

[13:41:20] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] he also claims not to use hyperbags or more specifically "Since I have no bags, I have no idea what imaginary bags you could have helped me with BT."

 

Regardless, this topic is about LoGG's policy that appears to allow its members to intentionally hunt for hyperbags created by other people. Here is a quote from Nardo about hyperbags on the LoGG forums: “We recently have a member who is quite skilled in this, by clever reasoning, calculation and deduction, levels way above my capabilities, he can determine when in the mood the best possible location where bags could possibly be discovered.” Statement from Nardo concerning h-bags. That statement clearly indicates to me that LoGG allows its members to use “clever reasoning, calculation and deduction” to steal hyperbags created by other people. If that doesn't accurately reflect LoGG policy, please clarify.

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EDIT: btw, please remind me about when I said that I never hide things in hyperspace, if thats what you mean by saying that I have no hyperbags. I wonder if your post isnt quite poorly relevant.

 

I took that from Blackthorne quoting you here:

 

[13:41:20] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] he also claims not to use hyperbags or more specifically "Since I have no bags, I have no idea what imaginary bags you could have helped me with BT."

 

By the way, that quote comes directly from your post earlier on this very same thread.

Since I have no bags, I have no idea what imaginary bags you could have helped me with BT.

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What strikes me strong is finding a hyper bag by accident. It's kind of impossible. Finding a hyperbad requires looking for it.

<edit>

What I mean, is that people claiming the poll concerned bag found by accident aren't right, in my opinion. The only situation I could think of finding a hyberspace bag 'by accident' is looking for own bag in some area, but hey, in this case, every hyperspace bag is found by accident.

Edited by Anshar

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That I have no bags I said as an answear for BTs post before. Read it to see the connection and that it has nothing to do with hyperbags. However, I dont have any hyperbags either.

 

It happens that I hide things in hyperspace, but I dont claim them as my hyperbags. Im aware that it is a gamble and I hide them as well as I can not to make them too easy to find. I think it was clear enough from the beginning.

 

And no, the answears to the poll doesn not change my impression that the poll doesnt in any way talk about accident.

 

Lets see if there is more to say without repeating ourselves.

 

btw, the title of that poll is "Hyperbags free for all or owned". Its about finding a hyperbag by luck, not accident.

Edited by sylvester

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As posted today on our forums:

 

First of all guys, I am so very sorry for all that has happened, maybe I have made a mistake of judgment and am not suitable to be a guild leader and should resign. It was never my intention to damage any of your reputation. I have tried my best to explain my vision and reasons why and what regarding hyperbags and treasure hunts, which I still feel as being part of the game as intended, and is played by many players, but its like talking to a waterfall. I was unaware that treasure hunts were considered to breaking the law, something I still have found no proof for, but allas. I can understand that perhaps some of you now have a difficult time online because of this, so as you wish I shall step down and leave LoGG to prevent any more damage to any of you.

 

Nardo

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As posted today on our forums:

 

First of all guys, I am so very sorry for all that has happened, maybe I have made a mistake of judgment and am not suitable to be a guild leader and should resign. It was never my intention to damage any of your reputation. I have tried my best to explain my vision and reasons why and what regarding hyperbags and treasure hunts, which I still feel as being part of the game as intended, and is played by many players, but its like talking to a waterfall. I was unaware that treasure hunts were considered to breaking the law, something I still have found no proof for, but allas. I can understand that perhaps some of you now have a difficult time online because of this, so as you wish I shall step down and leave LoGG to prevent any more damage to any of you.

 

Nardo

 

 

No ways, Nardo. We will not let you go. You are a groovy GM. :) LoGG rocks :devlish:

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