LoGG and your hyperbags

[jamincollins]

Statement from Nardo concerning h-bags

 

LoGG Guild Rules

 

Of particular note in the LoGG guild rules (under Lost & Found):

 

If you stumble upon a hidden hyperbag you can consider it a hidden treasure and yours.

 

Our guild recently (9/2) had the pleasure of having a rather large hyperbag stolen by someone we thought we could trust (Sylvester of LoGG). We had worked around this player for quite some time, even helping him on occasion. Sylvester did not act alone. Two of his guildmates (Form and Suncie) assisted with taking the bag.

 

The only modification in the following logs is the removal of the actual map name where this occurred.

 

IM's between myself and a guildy

To: just saw sylvester going toward the **** cave

To: heading in to check it out

From: hehehe

From: sure I'll see him here soonish then

To: just peeking in to see if our bag is ok

 

chat between an -AR- guild member and Sylvester

[16:36:50] [PM from Sylvester: hello. Im finally alive]

[16:37:52] [PM to Sylvester: that really big FE bag you found in ****, is mine.]

[16:38:38] [PM from Sylvester: ic. You spent some time on it I see =)]

[16:39:21] [PM to Sylvester: Very, very much. Anyhow it took me 6,700gc in keys to find it; and it was missing 10k FE]

[16:39:47] [PM from Sylvester: yep. I took about that much from it]

[16:41:34] [PM to Sylvester: So do I meet you at a STO for the FE, and GC for the keys? Oddly your guild rules don't agree with bag hunts; and sadly Form was helping.]

[16:43:13] [PM from Sylvester: Im in SRI. come and Ill give you some FEs and keys =)]

[16:44:39] [PM from Sylvester: oops. Hold on]

[16:45:04] [PM from Sylvester: I can see you at storage in 5-10 minutes, ok?]

[16:45:12] [PM to Sylvester: tis fine]

[16:47:18] [PM from Sylvester: I dont have the keys. Is it ok if I give you the gc that you spent on them instead?]

[16:47:42] [PM to Sylvester: yes plz.]

[16:47:53] [PM from Sylvester: pv or SRI?]

[16:48:08] [PM to Sylvester: pv's a little easier]

[16:48:22] [PM from Sylvester: Im in portalroom]

[16:48:37] [PM to Sylvester: I'm just 2 mins behind ya]

[16:51:17] Sylvester wants to trade with you. Use the trade icon then click on him/her in order to accept the trade.

[16:52:02] [PM to Sylvester: ty]

[16:52:33] [PM from Sylvester: ty for the excitement]

[16:53:02] [PM to Sylvester: hehehe It was a BIG bag. Better than any monster drop in the game by far.]

[16:53:10] [PM from Sylvester: yes =)]

[16:53:15] [PM to Sylvester: even more valuable than a nex removal]

[16:53:30] [PM from Sylvester: yes, but harder to carry ]

[16:53:41] [PM to Sylvester: Took mannnny hours last night]

[16:53:48] [PM to Sylvester: me AND a guildie]

[16:54:02] [PM from Sylvester: =)]

[16:54:18] [PM from Sylvester: took me 20 minutes just moving the bag a few steps]

[16:55:21] [PM to Sylvester: I think a small black hole exists where that bag sat. So there's a lot of people in those two mines that are kinda freaked out about the bag hunt.]

[16:55:43] [PM to Sylvester: Those are two mines where people usually enjoy not having to worry about bag theft.]

[16:56:12] [PM to Sylvester: Lots of people are kinda freaked cause they keep bags in those mines too.. So try to keep that place safe.]

[16:57:28] [PM from Sylvester: I dont know what I should answear on that =)]

[16:58:10] [PM to Sylvester: Well I know game rules are ok with it; and I know the risk. But several guilds aren't too happy with LoGG about the bags..]

[16:58:37] [PM to Sylvester: So, I'm not pissed; you've been very cool. But it just goes to reputation]

[16:59:55] [PM from Sylvester: Its just a game. Ppl tend to forget that]

[17:00:23] [PM from Sylvester: I have no problem returning your esses because they have no real value]

[17:00:28] [PM to Sylvester: Don't forget a bag of that size took 4 IRL weeks of two people lives.]

[17:00:55] [PM to Sylvester: and making essies isn't exactly fun; but helps for future projects and goals.]

[17:00:58] [PM from Sylvester: yes, but I hope you enjoyed that time playing a game]

[17:02:14] [PM from Sylvester: lets not find things to argue about]

[17:02:31] [PM from Sylvester: Im going to bed, so have a good night]

[17:02:34] [PM to Sylvester: let's not try to find other's hard work. g'night]

 

Recent discussion between myself and Nardo

[15:46:32] [PM from Nardo: greetings, please have a look at this: http://www.createforum.com/logg/viewtopic....mforum=logg#623]

[15:47:05] [PM to Nardo: checking]

[15:50:56] [PM to Nardo: I'm sorry but we'll have to disagree on this... using your own logic DB's do not belong to their owner and should not be returned]

[15:51:09] [PM to Nardo: but your guild rules clearly state that they should be...]

[15:51:22] [PM from Nardo: ah if killed by animal opr creature]

[15:51:35] [PM from Nardo: not on pk maps or anything]

[15:51:48] [PM to Nardo: doesn't matter... you claim that the developers back your "no one owns it"... it's exactly what they state about DB's]

[15:52:12] [PM to Nardo: yet your guild states to return them... and takes a different stance on h-bags...]

[15:52:29] [PM from Nardo: they are completely different]

[15:52:31] [PM to Nardo: and your member didn't "guess" the location of the bag]

[15:52:42] [PM to Nardo: *that* is where we will have to disagree]

[15:53:10] [PM to Nardo: we know the risks of using the h-bag... we trusted sylvester around us... we now know that was wrong]

[15:53:29] [PM to Nardo: our guild does not condone taking h-bags except from enemies]

[15:53:59] [PM from Nardo: a pity, a part of the game that was well intended to be in it]

[15:54:02] [PM to Nardo: this was not a single guild member taking our h-bag, but three members of your guild, including your GM]

[15:54:17] [PM from Nardo: yes, he found it]

[15:54:37] [PM to Nardo: the devels clearly state you have zero ownership of any DB, yet most of the community states people do]

[15:54:58] [PM to Nardo: no he knew were it was... he watched me work it... didn't "guess" anything]

[15:55:28] [PM to Nardo: as I said... we made the mistake of trusting him... and in more than a few cases helping him... won't happen again]

[15:56:12] [PM to Nardo: at least two other guilds (besides -AR-) have changed their stance toward LoGG as a result of this]

[15:56:25] [PM to Nardo: perhaps others I'm not aware of]

[15:56:35] [PM from Nardo: so be it its a part of the game]

[15:57:00] [PM from Nardo: i also make hyperbags, some got found, since then i make sure theydont]

[15:57:03] [PM to Nardo: aye... I've taken the action I see fit... unfortunately that has made the lives of a few friends in your guild harder]

[15:57:26] [PM to Nardo: like I said we know the risks... the problem here was a betrayal of trust...]

[15:58:38] [PM from Nardo: perhaps i know sylvester of trustworthy player ]

[15:59:14] [PM to Nardo: taking a bag that you know belongs to a guild that has helped you isn't trustworthy]

[15:59:34] [PM to Nardo: I've opened a number of h-bags on accident and returned them to where they came]

[15:59:47] [PM from Nardo: thats up to you only]

[15:59:57] [PM from Nardo: you can not expect every player to be like you]

[16:00:21] [PM to Nardo: as are the actions I take against someone our guild feels has betrayed our trust]

[16:00:51] [PM to Nardo: nor can you... as I said, we'll have to disagree on this point... I accept that you see things differently... you don't see to though]

[16:01:07] [PM from Nardo: oh yes i do ]

[16:05:27] [PM from Nardo: i am a man of peace and dislike any tension between guilds, unless intended, i stand behind our visions and will defend any member, i do this for ]

[16:05:40] [PM from Nardo: those who has nothing to do with the whole matter]

[16:07:21] [PM to Nardo: I can respect that you're standing behind your members, but I don't agree with your guild members actions]

[16:07:28] [PM from Nardo: if you want to punish sylvester then do so, for what reason you have, but dont damage the pleasure for other members, that is what i am trying to ]

[16:07:30] [PM from Nardo: say]

[16:08:07] [PM to Nardo: it's not just sylvester that did this... three members were involved: Sylvester, Form, and Suncie... based on this chat you condone their actions]

[16:08:27] [PM from Nardo: yes, and they have every right to be there]

[16:08:45] [PM from Nardo: like it sais if you find one its yours]

[16:08:52] [PM from Nardo: you can decide what to do it]

[16:09:19] [PM to Nardo: like I said we'll have to disagree... since Form is AFAIK GM of LoGG that means actions against the entire guild]

[16:10:01] [PM to Nardo: I have, we have red tagged LoGG, I've been more polite than necessary to members of LoGG since]

[16:10:16] [PM to Nardo: as I believe Troger can tell you]

[16:10:32] [PM from Nardo: yes he is one upset about it]

[16:10:56] [PM to Nardo: as I believe is Visvate]

[16:11:17] [PM from Nardo: not about the bag but about your actions yes]

[16:12:13] [PM to Nardo: as you yourself said, you can't expect everyone to believe the same as you... we don't take bags we didn't create unless they are bags from enemies]

[16:16:35] [PM from Nardo: whatever you decide, thats up to you, at least you know our vision too, but i find it strange, if tonight? tomorrow? someone finds ur bag again ]

[16:16:46] [PM from Nardo: you point yr finger at us again?]

[16:17:07] [PM to Nardo: perhaps... but I didn't point any finger without proof]

[16:17:32] [PM to Nardo: we've lost other bags around Sylvester and discounted him as possible because we trusted him]

[16:17:51] [PM to Nardo: I now suspect he took those too, but have not accused as I have no proof...]

[16:18:34] [PM from Nardo: we will never know this game in on 24v hrs a day]

[16:18:52] [PM to Nardo: is that a threat?]

[16:18:59] [PM from Nardo: no ofcourse not]

[16:19:06] [PM from Nardo: just a fact]

[16:19:21] [PM to Nardo: then why bother stating it? I'm on a lot too... so are my guildies...]

[16:19:51] [PM from Nardo: all i am saying is that while WE both could be asleep ther is a chance]

[16:20:06] [PM to Nardo: did I need to tell Troger his bag was safe... that I wouldn't touch it? No... based on our rules, I have every right to take it... yet I explicitly told]

[16:20:09] [PM to Nardo: him it was safe]

[16:20:30] [PM to Nardo: sure there could... and as I said I don't accuse without proof]

[16:20:48] [PM to Nardo: are you trying to say they didn't take it?]

[16:21:04] [PM from Nardo: for which i thnak you, but i am not stopping members to play a part of the game as it was intended]

[16:21:38] [PM to Nardo: nor am I... the developers also intended for the community to make its own rules...]

[16:22:32] [PM from Nardo: yes that were the problems start]

[16:23:05] [PM to Nardo: remember, bagjumping (taking of a death bag) isn't against the game rules...]

[16:23:16] [PM to Nardo: but your guild rules say not to do so...]

[16:24:29] [PM from Nardo: i dont see the connection sorry]

[16:24:53] [PM to Nardo: I'm sure you don't... and I'm sorry too]

[16:26:16] [PM from Nardo: i am glad we have this discussion, i also understand your points]

[16:28:52] [PM from Nardo: i was unaware that sylv was possible checking locations (in this case you) before his hunt, and shall rethink my opinion regards him]

[16:29:23] [PM to Nardo: he worked in the **** beside me at that VERY location several times]

[16:30:37] [PM from Nardo: thanks]

[16:31:03] [PM from Nardo: he has not been online yet but will have a talk]

[16:31:38] [PM from Nardo: for i condone thievery just as you]

[16:31:55] [PM to Nardo: you mean condem?]

[16:32:03] [PM from Nardo: yes ]

[16:32:06] [PM to Nardo: k]

[16:32:16] [PM from Nardo: english is not my mother language]

[16:32:22] [PM to Nardo: different meaning... just clarify... complete opposites]

[16:33:01] [PM to Nardo: condone = for and liking it to happen... condem = against]

[16:33:18] [PM from Nardo: alright]

[16:35:11] [PM from Nardo: what will be needed to remove that title on your website?]

[16:35:42] [PM to Nardo: hard to do since the GM was in on the taking]

[16:36:10] [PM from Nardo: and probably unaware too]

[16:36:26] [PM to Nardo: unaware of what?]

[16:36:42] [PM from Nardo: that your bag was not a treasure hunt]

 

I'll leave it up to everyone to decide if they agree with LoGG's stance on hyperbags.

[Gohan]

This HAS been discussed before, I'm not sure where, but it has been.

I agree with LoGG that a hyperspace bag is free game.

Doesn't have anything to do with us personally that I say this, btw.. Just to make sure you don't think that. That's really my opinion.

 

-Blee

[TirunCollimdus]

Entropy specifically encouraged everyone to hunt for hyperspace bags when he implemented them because he did not want them to be safe storages that would encourage mass production. The problem is that mass production is required in EL. How many FEs does it take to make one hydro bar? DUH That is why Entropy wanting hyperspace bags to be hunted is not supported by most guilds.

 

PATH does not hunt them. We do not appreciate others who do it and have listed LoGG as warning because they obviously cannot be trusted. If you help someone and they will turn around and steal from you then they are definitely outlaws IMO. Entropy supported actions or not stealing from people who help you is wrong.

 

TirunCollimdus

CoGM of PATH

Perseverance And Tolerance Honored

Edited September 7, 2007 by TirunCollimdus

[sylvester]

As I posted on LoGG forums:

 

I have never been working in the same area, neither have anyone from LoGG. I have not seen anyone close to the spot where I found the hyper. I just stumbled on it after using about 5 keys on different spots spread over that desposit. I have also never seen any of your guild members in that cave til after I found that bag.

 

and...

 

[00:23:38] [PM from insidious: Hey man.]

[00:23:50] [PM from insidious: AFKing again (of course)]

[00:23:57] [PM to insidious: =)]

[00:25:12] [PM to insidious: I heard our guilds ended up in a dispute or something.]

[00:25:50] [PM from insidious: Pfft. yea.. They keep asking me questions; and I keep telling them it's over who cares...]

[00:26:10] [PM to insidious: I was not on at the moment, so I missed the thing]

[00:27:23] [PM from insidious: yea I hear Blackthorne and Nardo (I think) were sending back and forth for a while.. But, my take on it is you were more than cool; so I have]

[00:27:26] [PM from insidious: no beef....]

[00:28:09] [PM from insidious: so I pretty much told them to leave me out of it.]

[00:28:17] [PM to insidious: ic ty]

[00:28:49] [PM from insidious: sigh... been harving with a green cape for an hour now.....]

[00:28:57] [PM to insidious: lol]

[00:29:03] [PM to insidious: that sucks]

 

...have a nice day and see you around

[sylvester]

If you help someone and they will turn around and steal from you then they are definitely outlaws IMO.

 

So how do you relate this with LoGG? I see no connection or explanation.

[jamincollins]

As I posted on LoGG forums:

 

I have never been working in the same area, neither have anyone from LoGG. I have not seen anyone close to the spot where I found the hyper. I just stumbled on it after using about 5 keys on different spots spread over that desposit. I have also never seen any of your guild members in that cave til after I found that bag.

Claim what you want about working around that bag. I know different, but unfortunately, I do not have proof to provide anyone else other than my word.

 

As for Indisious' PMs to you (from IMs between myself and him):

 

Eh I got the bag back; so I'm kinda not caring much.. cause if we piss them off I guarantee if there's a server update or a lag-out they'll run RIGHT to where I'm sitting.

He wants the whole thing to die because he doesn't want to get jumped by LoGG again.

 

If you help someone and they will turn around and steal from you then they are definitely outlaws IMO.

So how do you relate this with LoGG? I see no connection or explanation.

The connection is simple, members of -AR- helped you several times with your bags. Yet you take a bag known to worked by -AR-. Deny it all you want, as I said I have no proof to provide that you were in that area other than my word.

[sylvester]

Since I have no bags, I have no idea what imaginary bags you could have helped me with BT.

 

Insidious, if you have any comments about the conversation between the two of us, speak up. No other voices are needed about your words if you ask me.

[jamincollins]

Since I have no bags, I have no idea what imaginary bags you could have helped me with BT.

And yet more of your lies. You bag mix next to insidious on an almost daily basis. You bag mixed next to myself on the bag you claim to have no prior idea was ours. Please note, I'm not claiming these are hyperbags of yours (though I do know you have a few). In fact, I just left another of your bags alone this morning, though this was only because I didn't know it belonged to you until you returned to it. But that's right, you don't have any bags.

[sylvester]

Of course I am right. I dont claim that bag to be mine. In fact you are free to take all you want from my left over bags.

 

If I have a bag, its at my feet or a few steps away incase I hit a nexus. That bag I would claim to be mine.

 

Go send some projects to hyperspace Blackthorne

 

edit: typo

Edited September 8, 2007 by sylvester

[Addienne]

 

chat between an -AR- guild member and Sylvester

[16:36:50] [PM from Sylvester: hello. Im finally alive]

[16:37:52] [PM to Sylvester: that really big FE bag you found in ****, is mine.]

[16:38:38] [PM from Sylvester: ic. You spent some time on it I see =)]

[16:39:21] [PM to Sylvester: Very, very much. Anyhow it took me 6,700gc in keys to find it; and it was missing 10k FE]

 

I'll leave it up to everyone to decide if they agree with LoGG's stance on hyperbags.

 

jamincollins, then please DO let everyone decide.

 

I back Sylvester up, as, like Entropy would say: "si cu pula-n cur si cu sufletul in rai nu se poate". This means that you cannot easyly achieve every goal without sacrifices. Hypers are a kind of "confortable but unsafe storages". By locking it and leaving it there u risk loosing it. It's like real economy: bigger profit for bigger risks, who doesnt venture, doesnt gain. If u dont want to risk loosing your hyper, please take the stuff to the sto, like i do, and mix them there. Thisway you wont have to spend 6700 gcs for 44.66666(6) keys to find your bag (6700 cannot be divided by 150)

If u dont have time for this, or anything, calculate with the discomodities, too, not only the advantages of hyperspace bags. I think you should be happy for Sylvester finding it, thisway you got back those 10k FE's at least, instead of complaining forward (just think what happened if someone else found it ).

 

Seeya guys. I think we should stop this, because i got bored of fighting for NOTHINGS like this.

 

And one more thing: i think AR owes us an appologize in public in front of LoGG, as we did nothing to get to the outlaws.

 

 

<edit>

I would insist you edit your posts, instead of doubleposting.

~Anshar

[Suncie]

And one more thing: i think AR owes us an appologize in public in front of LoGG, as we did nothing to get to the outlaws.

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

I was there the first time you guys arived and no one said anything. Do you really think if we knew it was yours we would have taken it with you on the scene? Why did you keep quit at the time?

This is so silly, it is a game we all enjoy.

 

Undo the damage you guys have caused please and let EL rock

[jamincollins]

And one more thing: i think AR owes us an appologize in public in front of LoGG, as we did nothing to get to the outlaws.

I don't foresee an apology from -AR- at this time.

 

I was there the first time you guys arived and no one said anything. Do you really think if we knew it was yours we would have taken it with you on the scene? Why did you keep quit at the time?

This is so silly, it is a game we all enjoy.

 

Undo the damage you guys have caused please and let EL rock

The only bag open at the time I arrived was the bag that you had moved our bag into. It wasn't until after your guild left and we checked our bag that we discovered ours had been taken. Then, searching the surrounding area square by square (because we didn't want to believe that LoGG had taken it) did we arrive at the location you had occupied with your bag. This is why I didn't confront you at the time. However, as soon as we were sure that you had taken it, I contact LoGG (via Visvate) about the matter.

[Suncie]

And one more thing: i think AR owes us an appologize in public in front of LoGG, as we did nothing to get to the outlaws.

I don't foresee an apology from -AR- at this time.

 

I was there the first time you guys arived and no one said anything. Do you really think if we knew it was yours we would have taken it with you on the scene? Why did you keep quit at the time?

This is so silly, it is a game we all enjoy.

 

Undo the damage you guys have caused please and let EL rock

The only bag open at the time I arrived was the bag that you had moved our bag into. It wasn't until after your guild left and we checked our bag that we discovered ours had been taken. Then, searching the surrounding area square by square (because we didn't want to believe that LoGG had taken it) did we arrive at the location you had occupied with your bag. This is why I didn't confront you at the time. However, as soon as we were sure that you had taken it, I contact LoGG (via Visvate) about the matter.

I see. So instead of sorting out the matter with the Guild Masters and the persons in question you decided to red tag a complete guild? I have seen your guild more then once there and not once at the place where the original bag was. That could mean then that someone else have moved the bag and now you are blaming us?In fact,where I saw you guys was way off from where the bag was we have found to the best of my knowledge.

 

Think twice before ruining a good frienship

[jamincollins]

I see. So instead of sorting out the matter with the Guild Masters and the persons in question you decided to red tag a complete guild?

To my knowledge, LoGG's GM was in on taking the bag. So what good would it do to contact him about it. He obviously condoned the taking or wouldn't have been involved. Contacting Visvate was a courtesy as I consider him a friend.

 

I have never been working in the same area, neither have anyone from LoGG.

I have seen your guild more then once there and not once at the place where the original bag was.

Now, which is it? Either you've seen us there, as you (Suncie) state, or you're guild has never been in the same area with us as Sylvester states.

 

That could mean then that someone else have moved the bag and now you are blaming us?In fact,where I saw you guys was way off from where the bag was we have found to the best of my knowledge.

None of your guild members (prior to you) deny taking the bag. The contents match within 10K (which Sylvester admits to having taken). The evidence is pretty clear to me.

 

Think twice before ruining a good frienship

Which guild took which bag? I didn't start this mess, you can thank Sylvester for that. I'm only taking the steps I feel are necessary. As long as he continues to conduct his "treasure hunts".

 

edit: corrected trailing sentence and typo

Edited September 8, 2007 by jamincollins

[Suncie]

Which guild took which bag? I didn't start this mess, you can thank Sylvester for that. I'm only taking the steps I feel are necessary. As long as he continues to conduct his "treasure hunts".

 

Then this is a personal vendeta?

[jamincollins]

Which guild took which bag? I didn't start this mess, you can thank Sylvester for that. I'm only taking the steps I feel are necessary. As long as he continues to conduct his "treasure hunts".

 

Then this is a personal vendeta?

No, but it was started by a singular individual conducting his "treasure hunts". It left personal when multiple members of your guild assisted in taking the bag.

Edited September 8, 2007 by jamincollins

[Suncie]

Which guild took which bag? I didn't start this mess, you can thank Sylvester for that. I'm only taking the steps I feel are necessary. As long as he continues to conduct his "treasure hunts".

 

Then this is a personal vendeta?

No, but it was started by a singular individual conducting his "treasure hunts". It left personal when multiple members of your guild assisted in taking the bag.

 

So it was personal.

[jamincollins]

So it was personal.

No, I'm not sure where the disconnect in communicating this is. It would have been personal, and this posting against an individual, if only Sylvester had been involved. However, multiple members of your guild were involved, so this is not personal.

 

I believe your guild's actions were dishonorable and the behavior of outlaws.

[Suncie]

So it was personal.

No, I'm not sure where the disconnect in communicating this is. It would have been personal, and this posting against an individual, if only Sylvester had been involved. However, multiple members of your guild were involved, so this is not personal.

 

I believe your guild's actions were dishonorable and the behavior of outlaws.

 

Our guild is in the clear. You have not approached us at all but for the postings on the forum. Visvate is not here, and not a GM.

 

You got your bag back, right? What if a PKguild have discovered it?

[Tarnbriar]

Our guild is in the clear.

 

Except that it is LoGG's policy to allow hyperbag jumping, which makes LoGG a guild that allows outlaw members. I'm grateful to -AR- for the warning. Bagjumping is part of the game, but so are the social repercussions of outlaw behavior. I believe that's why this forum exists.

[korrode]

Except that it is LoGG's policy to allow hyperbag jumping, which makes LoGG a guild that allows outlaw members. I'm grateful to -AR- for the warning. Bagjumping is part of the game, but so are the social repercussions of outlaw behavior. I believe that's why this forum exists.

This is the plain and simple truth.

 

Irrelevant to what has transpired between your guild and -AR-, your rules state:

If you stumble upon a hidden hyperbag you can consider it a hidden treasure and yours.

You cant "stumble" upon a HB, u have to use a key to open it, there is no stumbling. The only way you find one is by it being one you created, thus you already know its location, or by actively searching for HBs created by other people.

I personally dont see how thats any different to any other version of community rule defined bagjumping.

 

I thank -AR- for the warning.

 

Troger, I've known you for a while, i urge you to push your guild to reconsider its policy on Hyperbags, i dont want to have to be worried if theres LoGG members in the vicinity and i'm about to make a HB.

I've never heard a bad word about LoGG until now, if you change your HB policy and make sure everyone knows you have, your reputation will probably remain, for the most part, intact.

 

Just my opinion and 2 cents.

[sylvester]

To clear things up...

 

Yes both me and suncie saw you BT, in the cave while we was on the bag, but as soon as you came in the reach of sight, you turned around and left.

 

Suncie told me that she tried to talk to you, but didnt get an answear. I think thats what she is talking about.

 

Im working close to you and Insidious all the time, but in that cave I had never worked at all before that.

 

Actually Im not sure that Im interested in anything more you have to say since it never was your bag to begin with. I would be more interested in hearing Insidious oppinion in case he has any interest in these matters.

[sadarar]

Bagjumping is part of the game, but so are the social repercussions of outlaw behavior. I believe that's why this forum exists.

 

IMO spot on. The outlaws section is virtually entirely full of scammers, bagjumpers and spawn stealers, all of which entropy has clearly stated are legal in the game rules. The games commuity has another subset of rules. This is the whole reason that LOGG have the option to discuss their policy on it. Bagjumping is bad enough, IMO actively searching for hyperbags to steal is worse. A guild which actively condones such activity deserves to be here even if no bags are taken.

 

Just my opinion

[jamincollins]

Actually Im not sure that Im interested in anything more you have to say since it never was your bag to begin with. I would be more interested in hearing Insidious oppinion in case he has any interest in these matters.

And who do you think made the last 100k in that bag? That's right me.

[jamincollins]

I attempted to discuss this further with LoGG due to Suncie's persistence in the matter (again only the location has been altered in the logs):

 

[13:24:22] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] Suncie seems to think there is some benefit to contact you about the bag situation... if any of you would like to discuss it I'm open to discussion

[13:25:03] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] however, since as I've stated your GM seems to have been involved in the taking of the bag I don't know how much benefit can come from this

[13:26:33] #Ig [Form:LoGG] I am not even sure what exactly happened. Suncie and I didnt know who's bag it was. And Sylv told me he didnt either and i tend to believe him.

[13:27:30] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] sylvester has been in the **** cave numerous times with either myself or insidious present... it would not have been a large leap to determine the

[13:28:00] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] location of one or more of our hyperbags in the area... we know the risks of using these bags and it's not the bag that is the problem

[13:28:42] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] it is the fact that we have helped watch over Sylvester's bags... regardless of whether he lays claim to them or not... we helped ensure they would be

[13:28:47] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] there when he returned

[13:29:27] #Ig [Form:LoGG] ive known Sylv for a long time and i cant imagine him being buddies with you and helping eachoher then stabbing you in the back.

[13:29:47] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] we did this by reseting the timers on the bag by dropping items into the bag... this was repaid with taking of a very large bag

[13:30:35] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] believe what you want... I don't accuse randomly... I do wish I had screenshots now to prove he was there... but I don't

[13:32:30] #Ig [Form:LoGG] i hope we can settle this somehow. We are not a gang of thieves, you know. I still cant see the whole thing clearly.

[13:33:41] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] as long as sylvester continues his hunts in areas he works next to people in I don't see that happening... and this isn't a personal thing...

[13:33:58] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] I just don't feel we can trust your guild with actions like this happening

[13:34:47] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] Sylvester was one of the first people our guild met in the **** mine... but claims to never have worked beside us... and he works beside insidious on a

[13:34:56] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] near daily basis...

[13:34:56] #Ig [suncie:LoGG] well you are accusing us - me of stealing

[13:35:11] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] did you or did you not assist in moving the bag?

[13:35:28] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] I know you were present as I saw you in the cave myself

[13:35:56] #Ig [suncie:LoGG] i did help him hauling it in

[13:36:14] #Ig [Form:LoGG] i was on the bag for about 5 minutes, he called me, i didnt even know what was really going on. Then i logged off since it was late.

[13:36:23] #Ig [Form:LoGG] so no, i didnt help.

[13:36:43] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] but you saw the bag and new it's size, this didn't raise any alarms for you?

[13:36:47] #Ig [suncie:LoGG] syl did not claim not working with you, he did not know that was your bag, point

[13:37:33] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] "I have never been working in the same area, neither have anyone from LoGG." that is directly from Sylvester

[13:38:06] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] that explicitly claims that he's never worked in the same area as us, nor has any LoGG member... it's a bold faced lie

[13:38:10] #Ig [suncie:LoGG] he was talking about the spesific area

[13:38:57] #Ig [suncie:LoGG] so you claims he was working in that spesific spot before?

[13:39:17] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] I claim that I was on the bag that was lost when he's been present in the **** mine, yes

[13:41:20] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] he also claims not to use hyperbags or more specifically "Since I have no bags, I have no idea what imaginary bags you could have helped me with BT."

[13:41:55] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] yet I've watched him use at least two in the **** mine... and he's stated to insidious that he's got a tool bag in the mine...

[13:42:05] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] yet more bold faced lies from him

[13:56:04] #Ig [suncie:LoGG] no comment ?

[13:56:58] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] on? I'm sorry I was disconnect and haven't seen anything since my last to you

[13:58:54] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] my guild mate passed on your message... it's not an opinion... sylvester admits to having taken the bag

[13:59:01] #Ig [suncie:LoGG] so this is all about you believe syl is a thied and now you have outlawed a complete guild?

[13:59:49] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] that is theft from my view... and he admits to it... the fact that multiple guild members were involved in it resulted in the whole guild being tagged

[14:00:20] #Ig [Form:LoGG] he admits taking the bag. And none of us denies sitting on it. But we didnt know who's it was. And he took a little amount compared to what it

[14:00:21] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] as I've stated numerous times... if only Sylvester had been involved, it would be against only Sylvester

[14:00:35] #Ig [Form:LoGG] was in it, AND he returned it.

[14:00:46] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] he moved the bag... that is taking the entire thing... he admits to that

[14:00:58] #Ig [suncie:LoGG] exactly, your view,so i still think this is a personal vendeta

[14:01:36] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] suncie you still aren't getting it... -AR- and many other guilds consider taking hyperbags as theft

[14:02:18] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] while it is nice that he did return the FE, it doesn't change the fact that he took it...

[14:02:19] #Ig [suncie:LoGG] take a look again at the pic that Nardo has posted

[14:03:03] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] what about it? our guild views are different... just because your guild condones taking of hyperbags doesn't mean other guilds don't see it as theft

[14:03:40] #Ig [suncie:LoGG] how come you dont mention it in the forum he has returned it

[14:04:18] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] I believe I do... right in my first post... complete chat logs including the trade

[14:04:43] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] [16:51:17] Sylvester wants to trade with you. Use the trade icon then click on him/her in order to accept the trade.

[14:04:51] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] [16:52:02] [PM to Sylvester: ty]

[14:05:35] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] that's immediately following the request for where to meet for the FE and GC... that's pretty clear to everyone

[14:05:49] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] have I ever denied that he returned the FE?

[14:10:30] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] so while only 10k of FE was hauled out of the mine, the entire 130k FE was moved from it's original spot, that's attempted theft of the entire bag

[14:10:59] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] and he admits to moving the bag: [16:54:18] [PM from Sylvester: took me 20 minutes just moving the bag a few steps]

[14:11:35] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] so are you (Suncie and Form) indicating that you had no part in the moving of the bag... only with the removal of 10k from it?

[14:11:48] [PM from Sylvester: hi]

[14:12:03] [PM to Sylvester: if you have something to say, do so in IG... not in PM]

[14:12:35] [PM from Sylvester: wrong]

[14:13:38] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] [PM from Sylvester: hi]

[14:13:40] [PM from Sylvester: this discussion doesnt have to involve all of my guild or all of yours]

[14:13:46] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] [PM to Sylvester: if you have something to say, do so in IG... not in PM]

[14:13:54] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] [PM from Sylvester: wrong]

[14:14:04] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] [PM from Sylvester: this discussion doesnt have to involve all of my guild or all of yours]

[14:15:27] [PM from Sylvester: thats very disturbing. If you want to make the discussion official, then share your logs please]

[14:15:36] [PM from Sylvester: dont spam out #ig]

[14:15:50] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] [PM from Sylvester: thats very disturbing. If you want to make the discussion official, then share your logs please]

[14:15:59] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] [PM from Sylvester: dont spam out #ig]

[14:16:24] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] I wish this discussion to remain open to all memebers of both guilds so there is no confusion on the matter

[14:16:46] #Ig [Katryel->LoGG] I for one would like to 'hear' it.

[14:17:22] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] no answer to my question (Suncie and Form)?

[14:17:44] [PM from Sylvester: how many members in your guild are involved in the discussion? Im sure that they dont have to see the messages instantly]

[14:18:00] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] [PM from Sylvester: how many members in your guild are involved in the discussion? Im sure that they dont have to see the messages instantly]

[14:18:26] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] I've my my request clear in both PM and IG, please refrain from attempting to PM me directly regarding this

[14:18:30] #Ig [suncie:LoGG] why should i? i have made myself clear have a clears consious hope so do you

[14:19:44] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] because I'm open to resolving this as I've told Nardo and hope I've made clear by discussing this here... it is my understanding that your involvement

[14:20:09] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] includes moving the bag... if that is not the case (which has not been contested to this point) then enlighten me

[14:21:40] [PM from Sylvester: we have heard too much of your voice. Please stop spamming our IG]

[14:21:54] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] [PM from Sylvester: we have heard too much of your voice. Please stop spamming our IG]

[14:22:13] #Ig [blackthorne->LoGG] I'll take this to mean that discussion are over... we are here if you wish to continue