Advanced Broker-Bot

[sithicus]

Am I misunderstanding the intention of this bot? I thought all it was going to be for is so players can pm it with something they are looking throughout the bots in el; "/botname search Fire Essence". after that command, the bot will list all the bots that deal with FEs, but not the prices.

 

If the above is correct, we would STILL have to pm the list of bots that was given, this would help both players (reducing the bot "spam") and bot owners (faster sales maybe(?), free advertising, and possibly MORE people buying/selling with the bots)? Would it not?

 

Some people don't use bots just because there is so many out there to pm for a list or items. I personally made a list of bots that work the best for me, after a while, I check out all the trade bots again to see if they would suit me (prices, items selling, items buying, and ect), if they don't, well I don't add them to my list.

 

right, although I think the bot was actually going to give the prices as well (for wanted/inv). You will do wisely to check the actual bot you plan to visit. It's Usl's call though, how this will finally work.

 

And please, I am not looking for a hard critque on my post, I am not trying to offend anyone at all. I would just like to know if I am misunderstanding the reason for this bot. I have been silent for days, and I just can't hold it in any longer.

 

I am sad to see you using such a disclaimer. It means that you feel intimidated enough by the tyrant to not say anything, which is undoubtedly the purpose of the agressive tone that permeates each and every thread touching this subject.

 

i am the guildmaster of situ guild, i find this outrageous!!

to see on post turn in to posting fighting. Where opinions being twisting and over reacting from labrab!

by read these just this two members posts. i see that sithicus made opinion on the thread and labrab over reacting and it show to he banned the hold guild to one opinion he read.

 

i opinion, on this matter is , when you make post, be ready for other members make opinions on this posted , if you not ready for the opinions do not make post or it well just get out of hand!

 

what labrab did was wrong! taking it out on hole guild is over reacting in my's opinion. With the actions that labrab did was outrageous! i have no choice to bring this up with situ senators for vote on this matter!!

labrab you could handle this better then this!! as experianced player

 

futhermore, i dont just banned player or guilds on situ guild bot just from one opinions , it has to be really good reasons behind the banning!

 

Don't get all heated up ag. It's labrat being... labratlike again, I suppose

Edited July 30, 2007 by sithicus

[Lexi]

I guess listing prices could cause a lot of heat with owners, I just don't see why someone just can't ask politely to be removed from the list, rather than getting worked up over it (although I can see both views of this thread). I am not in that position though, so I can't tell what I would do. But I am a very civil person(or at least try to be), so I may have just pmed Usl and asked to be removed if I had owned a bot.

 

I am sad to see you using such a disclaimer. It means that you feel intimidated enough by the tyrant to not say anything, which is undoubtedly the purpose of the agressive tone that permeates each and every thread touching this subject.

 

Well, I don't feel like having my post insulted just because there is heat in a thead (it's happened before). I don't see a point in arguing in a thread for pages long. And when someone says something offending to my post, I feel like I need to "stand up" for myself, which honestly I really don't think I should have to... sorry. I appreciate your kindness, sithicus, and thank you for clearing up my confusion.

 

I feel the bot wouold be a success, if it just listed bots that have the item that was searched. Not both that and prices.

 

Goodluck, everyone, I really hope this gets worked out.

[agrilles]

I guess listing prices could cause a lot of heat with owners, I just don't see why someone just can't ask politely to be removed from the list, rather than getting worked up over it (although I can see both views of this thread). I am not in that position though, so I can't tell what I would do. But I am a very civil person(or at least try to be), so I may have just pmed Usl and asked to be removed if I had owned a bot.

 

I am sad to see you using such a disclaimer. It means that you feel intimidated enough by the tyrant to not say anything, which is undoubtedly the purpose of the agressive tone that permeates each and every thread touching this subject.

 

Well, I don't feel like having my post insulted just because there is heat in a thead (it's happened before). I don't see a point in arguing in a thread for pages long. And when someone says something offending to my post, I feel like I need to "stand up" for myself, which honestly I really don't think I should have to... sorry. I appreciate your kindness, sithicus, and thank you for clearing up my confusion.

 

I feel the bot wouold be a success, if it just listed bots that have the item that was searched. Not both that and prices.

 

Goodluck, everyone, I really hope this gets worked out.

it just that some people do not take opitions very well. as guildmaster i have look at different when bot's owner use he's bot as way to get back at person's opition to banned the hold guild is wrong of the bot owner!

 

what labrat and sithicus need to work this out between one other! leave the guild out of it !

[ttlanhil]

I guess listing prices could cause a lot of heat with owners, I just don't see why someone just can't ask politely to be removed from the list, rather than getting worked up over it (although I can see both views of this thread).

Because (1) it's not just about the list, it's also about EL's market, and (2) because many of us have a dislike of Usl's practices, including that some of what he's said has, IMO, been misleading about the opinions of other bot owners, which he did know about.

I feel the bot wouold be a success, if it just listed bots that have the item that was searched. Not both that and prices.

Personally, I prefer just the list of bots and purpose so players still have to interact with the bots (we don't want the bot to play for us, just do some of the filtering, right?), but just the items (and removal of prices on @@3) wouldn't be too bad IMO.

[DragonCairn]

Here's a tiny thought... and it starts with a question to LabRat...

 

LabRat: As a recognized guru of bot building, and owner of multiple (more than one) bot, would it be a good thing, in your opinion if one of your bots could refer me to another of your bots that happens to have an item I'm interested in? I ask this because I've done business with your bots in the past, and would've had an easier time of it, had the first told me that the second had what I was looking for...

 

I'm not personally in favour of a single stock exchange, but I would love the ability to set up a referral service... say two friends each have their own bot, one carries mostly essences, the other carries mostly potions.

 

/bot1 inv fire essences

BOT1 : Sorry, I don't carry that, but please try BOT2 who specializes in essences....

 

Though I think a bot that pulled data from other bots to create a 'stock exchange' of sorts isn't a bad idea, but the BOT OWNERS being quarried need to opt in to such a program, and anyone wishing NOT to take part in such a program should just not sign up.

 

BUT how would this work? Many bots output their text nicely to a persons eyes, but there is no true standard to the layout and each signed up bot would require that code would need to be updated so that the signed up bots would be understood by such a market puller. Now, bandwidth is still an issue, even if it's only 5k in either direction at any given time. Perhaps owners of signed up bots should figure a way to post their data on an external server that could be retrieved server to server without using EL servers as an intermediary...

 

I'm not a big market person, and I'm talking out m'.... but ye ne'er know something I said might be useful?

[LabRat]

Such a system could indeed be done, although I wouldn't choose to implement it myself.

 

All the bots I host share a common database, allowing for a consistency across them, and allowing all of them to know the items that any one of them has been shown in the past.

 

My bots do indeed specialise, Agneum in silver ore and Titanta in feasting potions. Anything else they carry is of purely secondary importance to me (and them), and I regularly tell them to drop stuff they have and don't need into a bag at their feet.

 

Anyone that has spent any real time in the game will no doubt be aware of Agneum and her silver ore pile - in fact demand for her ores and demand to supply her ores has inspired me to write a leaderboard to see who is the highest buyer and seller of ore. I'm her biggest seller by a very large margin \o/

 

ttl broached on this earlier in this thread, with a comment about "if the bot owners decided to do this themselves it would be done in no time" (I paraphrase). A change in inventory layout would not be difficult for any competent programmer so that the whole system would work.

 

I could put in a PM "If I don't have the item you are looking for feel free to check with my other bot" and this may indeed lead to some PMs but if the item is not on either of the bots the person searching may well think that my bots are a waste of time and choose to ignore them both from that moment on.

 

What that has to do with the original idea i don't really see, but thanks for the question anyway. I hope the reply has answered it - at least in part.

[Torg]

As the coder and owner of Trinitybot, I have personal experience with EL's market and controlling it. I can and do speak from experience and I can provide many examples.

 

As has been mentioned in this thread, it certainly is possible (and has happened) that one bot can have an adverse effect on the market and people do believe that this one bot is authorative.

 

In my case I have tried to spread the updating of her database over several people who are active in the market and do know common prices for items. This hasn't worked so well so I have added other methods to keep her up-to-date with the fluctuations of the market (large scale ones, not day to day - out of interest things are cheaper on the weekends generally). I have provided a facility for people to suggest more accurate prices which her team will check and if they agree, update her with. I also have some other developments I am working on to improve the way she is kept up-to-date.

 

Hopefully this will mean she will have less impact on the market and in my eyes do a better job. She should reflect the market, not impact it.

 

This job, I believe is very similar to the job that this bot is designed to do. I personally agree that it would be beneficial to the players in EL to have a bot that contains a list of all the bots in EL and their locations. However, I believe that this bot should never list prices. I don't believe this will benefit bot-owners, except those who can afford to undercut everyone and crash the market.

 

That, and the method in which this bot was implemented (without first attempting to notify or heaven-forbid ask permission of the bot owners) are why I am against this bot.

 

From discussions under the bot owners forums, I do believe that Usl recognises the issue and has apologised to the bot owners. There is however still the little issue of listing prices. As already stated, my opinion is that the bot should only list matching bots and their locations.

[sithicus]

only listing matches will be 'somewhat useful' as I will then inv all the matching bots. Giving price and quantity as well will make it really useful since I won't bother to go to a bot who has 100 fire essence, or one that sells 5k fire essence for 5 gc each... So listing those in one go makes it better for the user.

 

However, if people submit to the hails of hatred thrown around here and make it listing without a price, it'll still merit use.

[neildog]

...demand for her ores and demand to supply her ores has inspired me to write a leaderboard to see who is the highest buyer and seller of ore. I'm her biggest seller by a very large margin \o/

 

I'd like to see that leaderboard

 

and I'll make you a deal, put Agneum just outside the cave (or right next to sto ) and I'll give ye a run for your money - you can be top seller and I'll be top buyer

 

neildog - always holding out for an emu bigger than that of a flea

[Usl]

Back I am, after a couple of days of quite intense RL work...

 

First of all,

I don't and didn't think anything was done with malice or ill-intent.

Thanks ttlanhil for that.

 

In the meantime, I will re-check with those bot owners I can contact whether they are ok or not with being included in the service.

I could contact only a handful of bot owners (yes, I used Vakana to get a handle to whom I should contact -- many bots do not declare their owner), and Rraisa will only poll those that explicitly asked to be included. I will ask other owners as I can get to them on-line. All bots whose owners didn't explicitly say they wanted to be included, will be removed; if you own a bot and want it to be included, just PM me in-game or in-forum.

 

Regarding pricing, customized prices/quantities, etc., here is a (partial, random) compilation of opinions:

Am I misunderstanding the intention of this bot? I thought all it was going to be for is so players can pm it with something they are looking throughout the bots in el; "/botname search Fire Essence". after that command, the bot will list all the bots that deal with FEs, but not the prices.

right, although I think the bot was actually going to give the prices as well (for wanted/inv). You will do wisely to check the actual bot you plan to visit.

I guess listing prices could cause a lot of heat with owners, {...} I feel the bot wouold be a success, if it just listed bots that have the item that was searched. Not both that and prices.

Everything that helps comparing prices will help free competition, it is capitalism.

Ofcourse capitalism and free competition are good for customers (players) and not necessarily bot ovners so I understand that not everybody likes it.

Personaly I like Rraisa, maby she force me in future to lover sell prices and incerase buy prices but in other side she will be great advertise.

In my opinion, profits form more new customers compensate me less profit from one customers.

Personally, I prefer just the list of bots and purpose so players still have to interact with the bots (we don't want the bot to play for us, just do some of the filtering, right?), but just the items (and removal of prices on @@3) wouldn't be too bad IMO.

I personally agree that it would be beneficial to the players in EL to have a bot that contains a list of all the bots in EL and their locations. However, I believe that this bot should never list prices. {...} As already stated, my opinion is that the bot should only list matching bots and their locations.

only listing matches will be 'somewhat useful' as I will then inv all the matching bots. Giving price and quantity as well will make it really useful since I won't bother to go to a bot who has 100 fire essence, or one that sells 5k fire essence for 5 gc each... So listing those in one go makes it better for the user.

However, if people submit to the hails of hatred thrown around here and make it listing without a price, it'll still merit use.

Given the mixed opinions above, here is what I intend to do: I added obfuscation of prices and quantities (actually, of any number appearing in the reply); each bot owner can choose whether s/he wants numbers listed or not; by default they will not be listed. This choice is similar to that of either advertising prices or not on channel 3; I do not want to impose a specific model here. I will leave the item's name, though, because that is needed to recognize false positives (e.g., "fire essence" matching also in "enriched fire essence" -- after all Rraisa does only string matching, no deep analysis of the replies).

As for location, I don't have that information available, and I think duplicating the work already done in Vakana would be a waste of time. We can revisit this issue later on, maybe, if there is interest and consensus. I'm trying to avoid doing twice the same error.

 

Rraisa will be open for general use in half an hour or so, but I will not advertise it for the moment, so that only people who has read this thread will check it out. There is a limit of 20 requests per person per EL day, as a bandwidth-control measure, but this might be increased or decreased later on (or maybe moved to a hourly limit), based on actual usage. I will also refrain from posting full instructions in the forum right now, for the same reason as above; just start with "help" and the rest should be intuitive enough. In results lists, better matches (textually, not on price) are at the end of the list, so that they stay on-screen for those not using console mode. Number in parenthesis at the end of lines are match quality index, with 100 being highest (all requested terms were found in the line).

I will appreciate any suggestion/comment/critique you might have; personal insults will make me sick , but will be tolerated nevertheless.

[Ozmondius]

IMHO this service rocks. I have been thinking about this concept for some time. Why should it be a pain in the behind to find what you're looking for? Thank you thank you thank you!

[Sphere]

A customer's view:

 

As a player that uses bots fairly often, I have to say this is a very good idea. I could care less if Rraisa gives me a price or not. I'll go to the bot for the price straight from the horse's mouth regardless.... IMHO a feature that's probably not needed anyway. The big problem for most players is finding what they are looking for.

 

The market channel is largely useless and usually clogged with advertisements for things I don't need or want (but I digress...) Occasionally (and this method is usually a waste of time) I'll leave the market channel open for a while then grep my logs to see if the item is being advertised. More often than not, all I get is the loss of the top half of my display, or living with a chat window shoved off to the side.

 

What the hell is wrong with a SANE list of who sells what? Seriously?!? After reading the posts in this thread, I have to wonder if some of the bot owners aren't losing perspective.

 

Stop and think for a minute about what resources the average EL player has to find an item... Grabbing the list of bots from the EL page, parsing the list to remove all of the guard/info type bots (another nice maintenance chore in itself), then pm'ing the remaining trade bots with /inv sounds to me like a nice task for a COMPUTER!

 

At least with a service that will guide me to a subset of bots I can use /inv on a much shorter list to find what I am looking for, nearby, and in a reasonable amount of time. If any of the bot owners think for even a second that many of us don't do comparative shopping when spending 1k+, then I've got some swamp land in MM for sale ;-) Likewise, I'm not going to cross a continent or ocean to save 1 or 2 hundred gc....

 

So now I'll be faced with with several decisions:

-Continue with my current tedious method of checking ALL of the bots.

-Find a way to determine who does not use Rraisa and PM them separately.

-Ignore the bots who do not use Rraisa.

-Post a suggestion that this type of functionality be added to the client (like that'll happen....)

-Dig up the old "Get the bots off of the market channel" thread (like that'll help....)

 

I'm sure that once/if this catches on, many other players will have to make the same choice (consciously or not.)

 

P.S. Keep the flames to yourself, and take with a grain of salt. This is my opinion.

 

Signed:

A customer.

[ttlanhil]

What the hell is wrong with a SANE list of who sells what? Seriously?!? After reading the posts in this thread, I have to wonder if some of the bot owners aren't losing perspective.

If you check, I've said that I'm for a list of trade bots with locations, but I'm against making price the primary competition point, and I also don't have faith in Usl's management of this feature.

I know labrat seems to be against the listing totally. I don't agree with him, but that's his choice.

Learner (who has control of over half the bots on EL) seems to have the same view as myself; the trade bots running on his code have, as last I knew, a webpage where people could check prices without being in EL, but he has issues with how this service has, so far, been run (and really, no matter how many times he apologises, it was developed in a closed and quiet sense, which I do not wish to encourage in an open and open source community).

 

However, I'll give you another step in your list. #ignore the bots that really annoy you. That's what I've done, for maybe a third to a quarter (the ones with annoying ads, mostly, but they tend to be quite frequent as well). With that, I've not cut down the list of bots I can trade with that much, but I have reduced the annoyance at botspam a great deal.

That's one of the things I try to work at with vakana, make her messages unannoying, less frequent (currently market ads once per hour), and try to find ways to make her customers happy (well, in reality, she was originally going to only do games and some info stuff, but since I had to pay, she can do some trade to earn her keep). As far as I know, this is working well, since people do seem to interact with her and enjoy many of the things she can do. What I really don't want to hear is that she's making annoying or irrelevant ads; and I'll try to change any of those people talk to me about (where sensible).

Getting back to the point; I believe that if the other bot owners encouraged competition based on customer service and location, instead of price, the community as a whole would have somewhat less of an issue with the botspam.