Change Windows on top behaviour?

[majestyk]

It's great that you now can use the windows on top feature to mix and chat in console mode, but what irks me is that the windows are also on top if I look at the map, so I can't click anywhere without moving (or removing) open windows. While map-walking you can't mix anyway, so is there any benefit to having the windows on top when looking at the map?

If noone comes up with a good reason I'd suggest to change the "windows on top" behaviour to not work while looking at the map

 

Cheers,

maj

[0ctane]

Well, you can open inventory and change what you are wearing while walking. Also, you can manu/alch while walking, but the success rate is pretty low.

[majestyk]

Well, you can open inventory and change what you are wearing while walking. Also, you can manu/alch while walking, but the success rate is pretty low.

This misses the point, the question was "is there a use for having the other windows on top while having the map open". You are talking about map-walking in general, and map-walking does not require you to have the map open all the time. Open map, select target, close map, that's 3 seconds without the other windows, and you still have the rest of the walk for changing equipment, mixing, chatting etc.

[Placid]

so is there any benefit to having the windows on top when looking at the map?

...

Well, you can open inventory and change what you are wearing while walking. Also, you can manu/alch while walking, but the success rate is pretty low.

I don't think that misses the point. In fact, it's a direct answer - he gave a use for using windows while looking at the map.

 

Anyhow, this should really be in suggestions - it's not directly related to programming, merely a suggestion.

[majestyk]

so is there any benefit to having the windows on top when looking at the map?

...

Well, you can open inventory and change what you are wearing while walking. Also, you can manu/alch while walking, but the success rate is pretty low.

I don't think that misses the point. In fact, it's a direct answer - he gave a use for using windows while looking at the map.

There is no benefit you wouldn't have when NOT having the map open at that time, therefore not really reasons why the windows should be on top.

 

 

Anyhow, this should really be in suggestions - it's not directly related to programming, merely a suggestion.

It's not a suggestion to add some item/day/monster/skill/whatever - it is related to something which was introduced in the last client update, and I had hoped that the developer who implemented it would spot it here more easily. But this certainly is a question of interpretation, and maybe it is wrong here, but the discussion if or if not is definitely off topic. I'd be much more interested in your opinion to the initial question

[Placid]

It's not a suggestion to add some item/day/monster/skill/whatever - it is related to something which was introduced in the last client update, and I had hoped that the developer who implemented it would spot it here more easily. But this certainly is a question of interpretation, and maybe it is wrong here, but the discussion if or if not is definitely off topic.

I don't care, to be honest, but i'm sure i'm right

 

I'd be much more interested in your opinion to the initial question

Yeah, fair enough.

 

Personally, i'm not sure it's the greatest idea to mix functionality like that - consistency makes sense to me. What might be nice however, is to have a key combination much like that of CTRL+D (hide all windows) that when pressed a second time would show the windows again. This would provide the functionality you're after, with the ease of continuing your original task once you've done what you need with the tab map.

[majestyk]

You are right, mixing the functionality is a bit inconsistent, but I don't think it would hurt too much in that case - if you put out your map, you lose focus on other things, and can continue once you put it down. I think players would understand that since it's close enough to reality.

 

But nevertheless, I like the double-CTRL-D a lot. And since it would both cure my itch AND be consistent, I am all for it. Might be a tad harder to implement than just adding an if - didn't look into it, but might require storing the windows which were open and their positions ...

[Vrumfondel]

What might be nice however, is to have a key combination much like that of CTRL+D (hide all windows) that when pressed a second time would show the windows again.

 

do you mean ALT-W?

[majestyk]

Actually it's not ctrl-D, it's ALT-D to make windows vanish. And with a second ALT-D windows should appear again, using another key combination would be a waste of valuable shortcuts

[Learner]

Actually it's not ctrl-D, it's ALT-D to make windows vanish. And with a second ALT-D windows should appear again, using another key combination would be a waste of valuable shortcuts

The Map window should NEVER have any windows on it! People running with thewindows on top should not have to fight them or disable that feature in order for that window to be clear!

[0ctane]

The Map window should NEVER have any windows on it! People running with thewindows on top should not have to fight them or disable that feature in order for that window to be clear!

I guess we found a volunteer to edit the code.

[Torg]

As the developer of that code, I agree that I should respond to this thread.

Placid, I'm happy with this being here, especially as I don't check the suggestions section as often as I check here. That said, bugs is probably the best location. Anyways!!...

 

Actually it's not ctrl-D, it's ALT-D to make windows vanish. And with a second ALT-D windows should appear again, using another key combination would be a waste of valuable shortcuts

Actually, the functionality has been there all along. It's ALT+W to turn on and off. Very simple, which is why I didn't code the extra (see below).

 

The Map window should NEVER have any windows on it! People running with thewindows on top should not have to fight them or disable that feature in order for that window to be clear!

The way it was coded was to unattach those windows from *any* EL window. Initially they are attached to the game window, and my code removes that attachment and makes them all base windows. Coding which windows to appear over and which to not would require more code, making things far more messy.

 

This implementation was chosen (after discussion iirc) because of the implementation of the keystroke to enable or disable this function (ALT+W).

 

If you would like me to change this so they are reattached when the map window is displayed, then I can, but I fear it will be a bit of a hack. :-S

[majestyk]

Actually it's not ctrl-D, it's ALT-D to make windows vanish. And with a second ALT-D windows should appear again, using another key combination would be a waste of valuable shortcuts

Actually, the functionality has been there all along. It's ALT+W to turn on and off. Very simple, which is why I didn't code the extra (see below).

 

IMO those are quite different things:

1) Alt-W: toggle windows on top setting on/off

2) Alt-D: (hide)/close all open windows - one-shot, no toggling, not reversible

 

When having the map window open, pressing either of those two happens to have the same effect (windows vanishing from the map). In every other case, they obviously have a very different meaning.

 

The culprit is that you still have to know (and press) either of those key combinations when looking at the map, which is probably not what the user expects.

Regardless of that it would be cool if windows which were closed with Alt-D would appear again if you press Alt-D again

[Torg]

IMO those are quite different things:

1) Alt-W: toggle windows on top setting on/off

2) Alt-D: (hide)/close all open windows - one-shot, no toggling, not reversible

 

When having the map window open, pressing either of those two happens to have the same effect (windows vanishing from the map). In every other case, they obviously have a very different meaning.

Yes, that is very true. Sorry, it is a case of misquote. I *should* have scrolled up to where you or Placid asked for a keystroke to enable/disable "windows on top" functionality and quoted that section, because that is what Alt+W does.

 

The culprit is that you still have to know (and press) either of those key combinations when looking at the map, which is probably not what the user expects.

That is also true. Maybe a shortcut hint should be added to the options dialog box to increase awareness?

 

Regardless of that it would be cool if windows which were closed with Alt-D would appear again if you press Alt-D again

Hmmmm... personally that doesn't bother me, but it sounds reasonable. It will require a new global variable however to track what was open when Alt+D was pressed. Should be fairly straightforward I think.

 

I think Grum or ttl is working on pinning windows open (to ignore Alt+D) so maybe they could look at this also? Otherwise, I'll have a look at it if people want.

[Grum]

I think Grum or ttl is working on pinning windows open (to ignore Alt+D) so maybe they could look at this also? Otherwise, I'll have a look at it if people want.

That'd be ttl then

[Placid]

Actually it's not ctrl-D, it's ALT-D to make windows vanish. And with a second ALT-D windows should appear again, using another key combination would be a waste of valuable shortcuts

Please read me properly. I did not say use another shortcut, I said a shortcut that when pressed twice would show the previously hidden windows again (that were hidden using the combo the first time).

 

And yes, I meant ALT+D.

[ttlanhil]

I think Grum or ttl is working on pinning windows open (to ignore Alt+D) so maybe they could look at this also? Otherwise, I'll have a look at it if people want.

That'd be ttl then

As far as working on, it was keeping a window above others I was trying to do (I've since changed tack and will do something else in place of that for the minimap).

The pin to ignore alt+d was really simple, just another function call to check if the variable is set (or a variable, if you want to think about it like that; I just have functions to grab a bit from an int to save on variables), and if so, refuse to close on the alt+d event (the handler for that).

 

Being able to remember which windows were open when alt+d was pressed should be possible... There are two ways I see this being done:

- Make a list of the windows that were opened when you alt+d, and then if none are open when you alt+d, restore that list. We could either do this with a linked list or an array, both of which have advantages and disadvantages.

- Some trickery with the existing code/numbers, such as setting a high bit in the display order variables to indicate "this was open".

- As an alternative to the above, a new variable used for this (which is possibly a little cleaner, but isn't really necessary and would waste memory).

[Grum]

A simple list would do, no need to adapt the windows structure for this. Could even be local (and static) to the keypress handler.

[ttlanhil]

Okay, well, unless someone else is working on this already, I'll have a go at it.

The alt+d thing, that is. Unlike Learner's exclamation marks, I don't see windows being open above the map as that big a problem.

[majestyk]

Unlike Learner's exclamation marks, I don't see windows being open above the map as that big a problem.

 

I agree it's not a big problem (it never was), but:

There is no benefit you wouldn't have when NOT having the map open at that time, therefore not really reasons why the windows should be on top.

And 95% of the time the spot you want to click on the map is covered when having storage, inventory and mix window open, therefore it renders the map pretty useless in that configuration.

 

This is more a question of principles if double alt-d works; I am pretty sure that only a minority of EL users know about that shortcut, but it will lessen the effort for those who know considerably.

[Placid]

Unlike Learner's exclamation marks, I don't see windows being open above the map as that big a problem.

 

I agree it's not a big problem (it never was), but:

There is no benefit you wouldn't have when NOT having the map open at that time, therefore not really reasons why the windows should be on top.

And 95% of the time the spot you want to click on the map is covered when having storage, inventory and mix window open, therefore it renders the map pretty useless in that configuration.

 

This is more a question of principles if double alt-d works; I am pretty sure that only a minority of EL users know about that shortcut, but it will lessen the effort for those who know considerably.

After getting used to using ALT+W (which is what i've been looking for now for a while), I can't see why your suggestion would be worth it at all. People can just use ALT+W, no?

[majestyk]

I am getting the feeling this is going in circles.

Well, after three years of playing you now found out about alt-w, and in a couple of days you were able to get used to it. Joe Average will never find out about alt-w, and trying to tell him about this workaround (and that's what it is, in regards to using alt-w while on the map) is just not the solution.

 

It still isn't a big problem, it never was, but it's a user interface thing, and you shouldn't see that from your point of view as a developer. If you want a nice, easy, intuitive and consistent user interface, you got to jump through hoops sometimes. And wasn't it you who was promoting consistency in the first place?

[Placid]

I am getting the feeling this is going in circles.

You and me both...

 

Well, after three years of playing you now found out about alt-w, and in a couple of days you were able to get used to it. Joe Average will never find out about alt-w, and trying to tell him about this workaround (and that's what it is, in regards to using alt-w while on the map) is just not the solution.

I very much doubt ALT+W was here when I started playing. Furthermore, lots of the shortcuts are badly documented, so it's really just a matter of knowing where to look, not necessarily playing for x years.

 

It still isn't a big problem, it never was, but it's a user interface thing, and you shouldn't see that from your point of view as a developer.

Who said it was a big problem? Not me...Day in day out I have to deal with the user-developer perspective, and I think if you were to read the majority of my posts from the past, you'll see that i've remained impartial and as objective as possible.

 

If you want a nice, easy, intuitive and consistent user interface, you got to jump through hoops sometimes. And wasn't it you who was promoting consistency in the first place?

WTF are you talking about? You asked for opinions, and I gave you mine. WTF do you want me to say? "Ohh your idea's great, here have a cookie!" even though I don't think so? Again: you asked for opinions, so I gave you mine.

 

Look: I don't think it makes sense to change the windows-on-top behaviour just for the map. I think it'd be nice to have a tooltip or another way of notifying the user (perhaps even a button) how they can 'hide windows'. However, I don't like your suggestion, but that's just me.

 

Anyhow, what i'm saying has very little bearing on the final decision. So instead of taking my negativity to heart, just tally it on the 'Against' column and continue - OK?

 

I will not post any further on this subject, thanks for reading. Love you.

Edited June 25, 2007 by Placid

[majestyk]

With all that WFT-ing I rather think that you are taking things to heart which were not meant to be offensive in any way. I was polite after you replied completely off-topic, I didn't say a word when you corrected me because I misinterpreted something that I think was worded very misleading (and not important enough to be corrected), and even after all that WTFing I'd still rather hear some constructive criticism than that sarcastic "love you" farewell note from you. But if that's the level at which you want to contribute, you better refrain from turning this into a personal vendetta. Your "against" vote will be considered, I'm sure.

[Torg]

Ok, this is getting way out of hand.

 

I'd still rather hear some constructive criticism than that sarcastic "love you" farewell note from you.

Constructive criticism on what? He was expressing his opinion. Just popping in to say "this is what I think"... You don't always have to explain yourself. It is ok to just say if you like an idea or not.

 

ALT+W has only been in the client since I coded it about a year ago. Most people who are active in this section of the forums will have seen and known about this shortcut when it was being developed.

 

Ok, enough of that.

 

Basically my thoughts are that ALT+D redisplaying any windows turned off by the first press would be handy when sitting around storage mixing, and then dropping the windows to heal someone, then restoring them to continue. This is very different from what ALT+W does, which is stop displaying them on top. For map, I would suggest using ALT+W (especially because it currently exists in code), but I can see the reason for adding a 'second'* shortcut.

 

This solution *still* doesn't help those who are new to the game. The problem is how do you inform new players of all the small funky features like keyboard shortcuts?? They should be listed in the keys section of the encyc, but I know from being a mod, people either don't know it is there, or don't bother to check. Hence, my suggestion of extending the comment for the option to explain the shortcut.

 

What do people think of that idea? Would that solve the problem do you think??

 

 

*Ps. majestyk - It's not actually adding anything as both already exist, its purely extending the funtionality of one existing shortcut.