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Ideas for the "charm" attribute replacement

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First choice: Rename the attribute to Arcana.

 

Arcana: This is a measure of how in tune you are with the mystic aether which permeates all living things. The higher your arcana, the better you are at bending the aether to you whim. A starting character with 4 arcana follows the required spell level and mana requirements listed in the encyclopedia. Adding a pp to arcana gives:

 

1. An incremental reduction in the chance of a spell failing. A pure magic oriented player, with enough pps, could no-fail cast a spell at a lower level than it currently is.

 

2. An incremental reduction in the mana required to cast a spell. This would be hard to balance, but would encourage players to spend pps in the attribute. Who wouldn't like to use only 20 mana instead of 25 for a restore :P

 

3. Increase the effectiveness of level based spells. Harm, Poison, Mana Drain, Life Drain and with projectile based spells maybe down the road, the area/distance of effect.

 

4. An incremental reduction in the mana required to summon a creature. I would not tie it in with the manufacturing of summoning stones

 

Doing this will make developing your character much harder, but would result in a much more varied population of players. With this, just because someone doesn't have high p/c doesn't mean they couldn't be deadly. Imagine someone in the top 10 magic skill resetting and putting points in arcana and less in p/c. They might not look like they can kill you with a sword, but they can reave your spirit into the underworld.

 

Second choice: what trollson posted.

 

And yes, I've usually have always played a mage character in single player computer rpg's and the good old pencil/graph/dice rpg's like D&D throughout the years.

 

this one gets my vote. i was thinking of the title "channeling" but either way i like it :)

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Charm should effect NPC\'s like the higher charm is you can buy/sell stuff for less/more gold. Why would it have something with fighting? Why not to make some attribute for mixers? That would make some split in game, players will have to think before starting some skill and choose their way to be fighter or mixer.

 

Cheers!

I agree with your idea about the npc's.What if every 2 pps of vitality a player would get additional 0,5% more exp to all those skills where he doesn't serve a god?Something like "i am serving alluwen but because of charm mortos is blessing me too" or the summoning god or something like that.

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Charm should effect NPC\'s like the higher charm is you can buy/sell stuff for less/more gold. Why would it have something with fighting? Why not to make some attribute for mixers? That would make some split in game, players will have to think before starting some skill and choose their way to be fighter or mixer.

 

Cheers!

I agree with your idea about the npc's.What if every 2 pps of vitality a player would get additional 0,5% more exp to all those skills where he doesn't serve a god?Something like "i am serving alluwen but because of charm mortos is blessing me too" or the summoning god or something like that.

There is an attribute, rationality (tho i dont like it much in fighters chars), which increases the amount of exp already. Dunno if 2 attribs for the same thing would be a good idea. :P

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A lot of good ideas and arguments.

 

I suggest Constitution

 

Lower damage taken from all attacks.

 

Slight regeneration rate increase.

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If we are going to vote on this instead of you making it the way you want it Entropy I think you should only choose the ideas that do the least to help fighting and the most to help harvesters and makers. I know there is probably a lot of support for the magic stuff but doing that you still loose charm out of the game and no way to replace it.

 

The constitution idea is another help for fighters and duplicates toughness which we already have. We have fast regen spots in the game so I think there is no need for a cross attribute that speeds healing. Along that line we already have conjuring capes and for reduced cost on summoning. Why not make items like staves or armors that are weak att/def but reduce casting costs. That is a much better solution than throwing charm right out the window.

 

I think everyone should focus on the idea that there has to be room for roleplaying in Eternal Lands so that it can find its own brand of interactivity. Yes role playing between players is part of the game but the game is just a shooting gallery with a chat room if there is no interaction with the environment as well. I hope this is the most important consideration in the discussion of removing charm completely.

 

TirunCollimdus

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If, as suggested on Radu's blog a new engineering skill will be added into the game that uses bombs and other traps then why not make perception be used to find higher level traps as well as being able to see in the dark. As for charm we could "use it in some later quests" or/and we could make it "luck" and increase chances for rare weapons such as enriched essences and make it more likely to flee a battle. Basicaly anything in the game that involves luck (except for the lottery and other exceptions) could have increased chances depending on your charm or luck.

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I highly like the 'Arcana' idea. Especially with the addition to some higher level items and staffs/wands or something.

 

It makes it so you don't have to slave away on the monsters to be a threat in PK. Especially with Archery coming up. Then guilds in PK could have more meaning. You could have some '1337' fighters out in front. Then some archers a bit further back and mages healing and throwing fireballs. It would give much more variety to PK. Without this with the addition of ranged spells and the like it just means that the high leveled fighters just get more powerful. If you look the highest fighters are the highest magic people. Arcana throws in the determining factor for the difference between a more true mage and a fighter.

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maybe charm can be used to have a higher chance to flee?

Was already suggested on this thread multiple times.

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Arcane -- This is just the magic nexus.

 

There is no real difference between a nexus and an attribute in terms of game mechanics; they both come from the same allocation pool, and could be used in the same way (to define required levels, to give derived bonuses).

 

Attributes should be fundamental properties common to all characters. From these, other properties are derived.

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How is Arcane, or Arcana the magic nexus? Sure in game mechanic terms they come from the same place. But Attributes and nexuses DO NOT do the same thing.

 

Nexuses are used to better yourself in what you can create

Attributes/Cross-Attributes are used to better yourself in how powerful/good your character is.

 

Arcana just puts a line between "I'm a fighter with uber high magic because I use Restoration every 2 minutes" and "I'm actually really good at casting magic and launch a big ass fireball into your face for massive damage"

 

Perception can be used for Bows&Arrows/other thrown objects and the night vision.

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I agreed with a bit of what Trollson said.

 

Someone said something about being able to dodge arrows...that is not charm. That is luck.

 

This thing could possibly be renamed "Charm and Luck".

 

It would give more chance to affect melee combat than ranged combat. Swashbuckling knowledge anyone? "nathanstenzel makes you laugh in the middle of combat"....although, lets face it, my poor fighting ability is more likely to do that then my "charm".

 

I was also thinking that NPC's could treat you differently. Perhaps volunteering information that they normally wouldn't....like there being a special sale down the street or that another NPC needs something at the moment....or clues to a quest.

 

The luck part should also affect what is a critical fail and what is a fail period.

 

As for creatures not attacking you, to make it so PKers don't mind it, it would only affect creatures obviously above your a/d....like a troll or garg for a beaver fighter. Of course, if Entropy still wants newbs being slaughtered in WS at night, gargs can be immune to charm. They have a heart of stone afterall.

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...Attributes and nexuses DO NOT do the same thing.
There is no reason why they shouldn't, and afair Entropy mentioned high nexus levels giving bonuses.
Arcana just puts a line between "I'm a fighter with uber high magic because I use Restoration every 2 minutes" and "I'm actually really good at casting magic and launch a big ass fireball into your face for massive damage"
This confuses skill and nexus levels: The fighter is "über" magic skill, practiced proficency, while the mage spends PPs in magic nexus to be able to use the more powerful spells (which needn't be high skill level).

 

Having both a magic attribute and nexus splits the PP spend for mage characters, assuming that magic nexus becomes more relevant to spell casting in future.

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The magic nexus is currently used for Crafting because Crafting does require magic. Your imbuing items with magic. Hence the magic nexus.

 

And I think nexuses are way too direct. If magic nexus was used to better magic. It's not that big of a deal for fighters to spend maybe 5 extra pp compared to 20 or 30. And also then all the top crafters can instantly become 1337 magic people.

 

And yes, it's fine if high nexus levels give bonuses. But there should be more things that benefit magic. Because just about every attribute benefits fighting in one way or another.

Edited by Aerowind

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PK engagement resistance? Somebody tries to attack you, but cannot because you are "too beautiful". Sucker! As always, the game needs a mechanism to prevent success-through-repetition in these situations.

This is a very interesting idea. Would it be permanent, or just decrease the CHANCE to engage?

For a somewhat lengthy discussion/expansion of this idea, might I suggest the following thread:

<shameless plug>http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26031</shameless plug>

 

Afaik, and with all due respect, the compplication with flee is a BUG, the fact that we all have trouble with flee at times wasent done on purpose, like i said it is a bug, so why should we have to have a cross-attribute in which to waste pp in to correct a bug?

If someone wants to sink a pickpoint into a "flee" attribute, why stop them?

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Ok, thanks everyone for your suggestions.

I made my mind, and I think you will like it (well, some of you at least).

I won't tell you what it is, so it's a surprise until the next update. However, it is on the test server, and if you find it, let me know.

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w00t thanks a lot for this update :D

 

went with my summon (46 on test serv) and tested it out, and i'm happy..

 

might even take antisocial on main server for more pp's :blush:

 

EDIT: 13 charm did the trick for me, but how much exactly is needed for the special effect?

 

and with my limited test samples, it seemed the effect only works for animals? or does it work with monsters too?

 

but a good update nevertheless :icon13:

 

EDIT 2: summons lose more HP now? seems that they die faster.. :blink:

Edited by 2coolfool

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I have charm 13 and summon lvl 67 on test server (could get charm up to 20 if I take more negs). First thing I saw was giants losing 10 HP/minute which is insane in my opinion, other monsters also lose more than 2 HP/minute (female gobline 5 for example). Is that a feature? not nice if you asked me.

 

I summoned about 20 wolves, got no double.

I also asked Jaclaw to try my arctic, yeti, giant and in the end giant+yeti (I had no more ELEs to make more :/) . He had no problems with them. So is my charm there too low to see any difference?

Would be good if you provided us with info what charm lvls should we test to see changes.

 

 

edit: forgot, I did 3 giants against normal giants in AA, first I couldn't find giant, so each of mine lost 100 HP while walking around >.<, then they killed 1 G, lost 100 HP again looking for another and *poof* no summons (died while fighting 2nd one)

Edited by LadyReni

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Yawn, you know, it should be a surprise... I think some people spoiled the 'surprise' for the others now.:icon13:

 

Anyways, i tested with 30 rabbits, got double rabbit a few times (charm 16 there, 11 natural + 5 from pots). Also summoned a black bear which killed 2 grizzly bears alone. So, at least for bears, summoneds got indeed more strong.

Edited by Lorck

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Oh well if it is a surprise, please delete, but if not, here is my input: (yep hopeless sample sizes, but low summoning level (30) and low ings too)

 

When at charm 6:

 

summoned 20 wolves, 2 double summons, xp (guildless on test server) 11/18 (when attacking them), summons lose 3 hp per loss

 

When at charm 11:

 

summoned 20 wolves, 0 double summons, xp 11/18, summons lose 3hp per loss

 

when at charm 16:

 

summoned 20 wolves, 3 double summons, xp 11/18, summons lose 3hp per loss

 

EDIT:

Still charm 16...

summoned 2 black bears (out of 5, my sumzoring level sux on test server) BOTH were double summons. The first double got eaten by one grizzly bear. The second double attacked another black bear...first got eaten the 2nd survived with 46 hp remaining. Bears lost 10 points per loss (agh)

 

2ND EDIT:

 

Went to IP rat room with a bunch of LE's. When a rat spawned, I would summon a rat and look at how it fared: Eyes started to glaze over but got a trend clear enough to stop :icon13:

 

Rats Summoned: 30

Doubles: 4

Did the summoned rat win/lose against the next spawned rat? 8/21

 

Notes: All 4 double spawned rats defeated the next spawned rat. Only one of the double fought of course as it is a single fight map. ie of the 8 wins, 4 of them were the 4 double summons.

Also, the rats lost 2 hp per loss.

 

Ok I'm done :blink:

 

Will edit this post when more information comes in, if the post still exists :blush: EDIT: No I wont :D

 

S.

Edited by Spleenfeeder

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well at my charm of 13 on test

 

10 pumas got me 2 double summons

10 wolves got me 3 double summons

10 rabbits got me 5 double summons

 

so it seems lower level summons get doubled more? :icon13:

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Still charm 16...

summoned 2 black bears (out of 5, my sumzoring level sux on test server) BOTH were double summons. The first double got eaten by one grizzly bear. The second double attacked another black bear...first got eaten the 2nd survived eith 46 hp remaining. Bears lost 10 points per loss (agh)

Well, i used a stone, and the bear did pretty well against the grizzly. Btw, that bear also lost 10 point, and tiger lost like 7...

Edited by Lorck

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Charm is something the person on the keyboard has. If you write very fluently and with the intent to impress then you could be considered charming. I don't see how a game in which all significant interactions are with other players could explain a charm attrbute. If the most ignorant fool in the game (like one of my own characters) had a high charm attribute yet talked like a barbarian who loves nothing more than smashing face then that wouldn't make much sense. Renaming the attribute makes more sense to me.

 

I like the Arcana idea allot. Being able to spend pick points (albeit allot for perhaps very little effect) to increase spell strength is a great idea. This allows for mages who are NOT fighters yet may not end up as quick and greasy roadkill on PK maps.

Alternativley I think the Luck idea is a good one. I'm not much of a manufacturer myself (What is the point of manufacturing in a game when I could do it for real?) and harvest only when I must but it does give something usefull for manu/alch/pot/crafters to do with their pick points seeing as how they don't need to be will/physique/coordination hogs like the fighters/mages.

 

the jist ot it: Arcana is sweet!

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