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Virtual Items

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Following on from thoughts on the manufacturing thread, and a lunchtime discussion, and elsewhere...

 

Virtual Items

Abstract

This suggestion is most relevant to developing advanced magic without requireing Conan-physique Mages to carry around all the essences. It introduces a new class of object, 'virtual items', which are typically non-physical, but nevertheless occupy inventory space. It also attempts to extend their use to artisans.

Narrative Example

Perhaps a quick scenario to demonstrate what I am thinking of, before we get into the details and mechanics:

The ArchMage sits in his tower, a thin and puny figure of dangeous intellect. His minions bring him essences and other ingredients. Surrounded by the smoke of incense he meditates over his books and recites an incantation; three score essences evaporate, surrounding him in a shimmering cloud; he breaths deeply. A dozen times he performs the ritual, and a dozen times another, before rising, taking up his staff and robe, and setting off to the Dragons lair...

Here is an example of a character dedicated to the ways of magic; the ArchMage has ignored his physique, instead developing exceptional mental powers. He has prepared 24 high level spells to use in facing the Dragon; which have used some 1440 emu of essences. Rather than taking a pack-team, he has his magic prepared and readied in the form of 'virtual items'; they will still cost him the mana when he faces the beast, but he has lots of mana.

General Properties

Virtual items are a new class of object, which can only exist in a character's inventory. They cannot be placed in storage or traded, and are destroyed if dropped (including into death bags).

 

So they must be created and used by the same character.

 

They typically represent things which are non-physical
(eg., a preparation for a spell)
, but may also represent volitile or fragile objects
(eg., a volitile reagent for a potion)
, or be of some other nature as yet unknown.

 

They occupy inventory slots as any other item. Whether they are stackable or have any weight would depend on their specific nature and use.

Why are they needed?

As recipes and spells become more advanced, the quantity and therefore weight of ingredients increases.

 

Since ingredients for a spell or item must be in the inventory, this forces characters to increase their carrying capacity, to
"beef up"
, even though this may be against their nature. Why should a mage have to develop a physique to cast spells? Why should the artisan have to carry all the ingredients for an item, when in practice they would be working at a workbench?

Any recipe should be available to a character with the minimum carrying capacity.

One solution is to have more intermediate ingredients in a recipe. This has the additional effect of allowing production to be spread between more characters -- as now the apprentices make the basic rings and the polished gems, and the master craftsman combines them.

 

This works for producing items; but what of high level spells? There has been discussion of producing magic scrolls to capture a spell; but these can then be traded, and so the magic can be passed around. Even if the scrolls still require a high magic skill to read, there this still devalues the archean art.

Scrolls have their place, and I do not discount them as an item type.

Virtual items therefore occupy the position of intermediate ingredients where it is desirable to restrict multi-stage production of an item or spell to a single character. As such they represent the results of elaborate and careful preparation, which may be a combination of mental and material

Application to Magic

The application to advanced magic is where this type of item is most relevant.

 

An advanced spell could use virtual items instead of normal essences.

 

A mage prepares in advance to cast a spell, locked away in their tower, memorising the incantations and absorbing the power. Such preparation cannot be traded or done on the behalf of another character.

 

Since virtual items take inventory slots, and a token weight (if stackable), the mage is limited to how many they can prepare in advance; but they are not required to carry huge weights of essences for advanced spells, which does not fit with their nature.

 

Consider these preparations as
'virtual essences'
. The same virtual essence may be used in any number of advanced spells; so this preparation need not overly limit the options available to the mage in the heat of a crisis.

 

The mana for any spell is consumed when it is cast, as normal.

Application to Artisans

It is more tricky to apply virtual items to artisans; if the virtual item is to be used as an ingredient, isn't is physical; in which case we need a strong reason why it cannot be traded.

 

Virtual items could also represent blessings, which are consumed when an item is made. They could also represent meditation required before attempting a particulary tricky artifact
(literally a "piece of mind"?)
.

 

They could also represent volitile potions or agents which can be used as a weapon, or to some other effect, but are too unstable to pass around (even to collegues of greater skill). This brings artisans into the frontline.

 

Some artifacts may require ingredients prepared fresh, or produced at specific locations and then kept pure. Passing these around would expose and ruin them.

Other Applications

Blessings
and other delayed buffs -- Not all virtual objects need to be created by the carrier; imagine if a priest blessing appeared as a virtual object in your inventory. Instead of having to haul ingredients to the temple, you could respect the sanctity of the location, gather your blessing, and save it for later use in a more approprate location and time.

 

This may be more relevant when and if it becomes necessary to use static map objects to exercise a skill (manufacturing at a forge for instance).

 

This application could allow a new set of high level spells may be defined with delayed effects, for example; Heal, Remote Heal, Delayed Heal.

Edited by trollson

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i recall an idea about having worn items that could allow the wearer to access essences from storage when casting spells.

 

given that the number of worn slots are limited, it limits the number of essence types one can access...

 

there is also the idea of giving the magic users the ability to scribe scrolls.

 

basically the magicans equivalent to a summoning stone.

Edited by duran

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so basically in laymans terms your are suggesting an idea like that used in roleplaying games like AD&D where the spells are somehow memerised before leaving on adventure :omg:

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Or, in other words, items with like 1 emu each. How much do essences weigh in the first place?
the invisibility spell's essences, for an example, weigh 30 EMU all together. an invis essence itself (prepared spell) might only weigh 1-2 EMU

of course, there may be other spells you'd cast more frequently, but this would still allow a mage to prepare to cast more spells when away from storage

 

as I envisionage it, you'd have a slightly higher than normal chance to fail when making the virtual essence, and a lower than normal chance to fail when casting... plus the fact that death means losing it, means there'll be more losses of essences

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The responses so far have only considered the role with regards to magic, which was the original idea. I have attempted to generalise the concept of "virtual items" for other situations, which requires more input.

duran:

I started thinking about scrolls for this, but I specifically wanted something that couldn't be passed around; for magic, you could consider the virtual items as a spell that the mage has pre-caste, and just needs the final invokation and mana expense.

 

Equipable items that draw on essences in storage, or which reduce spell costs by one specific essence, are also a good ideas to liberate the mage from the need to bulk up.

 

Do you see the remote-inventory access as being limited in the quantity of essences used? Would a "Staff of Magic" just provide one magic essence from storage, or as many as are needed?

convar:

Pre-memorised spells -- yes, that is one interpretation, but this can be more flexible than the AD&D model. The
'virtual essences'
created need not be tied to a single spell, but could be used with a number of related magics.

roja:

A case for virtual essences (pre-prepared spells) to weigh nothing is that giving them any weight limits a mage's potential by their
might
, and not just their
ethereality
. This seems wrong to me, and breaking this association was the original goal of this suggestion.

 

Their limit, for non-stackable virtual essences, is in inventory slots. This is, of course, independant of might.

 

If stackable there may be a case to assigning a weight, which reasserts the might dependancy. However use is still limited by mana, and they must be used or lost by the character who invested the effort in making them. This is not the same as a Fighter carrying an unlimited number of potions that they have bought -- there the commitment is only in the end use, not the preparation.

 

The case for zero-weight only applies to virtual essences for magic; other types of virtual items would have other considerations.

ttlanhil:

Since creating the virtual item/essence is done at your leisure, there would be the same risk of losing ingredients as you would have making any other item. So overall more essences would be consumed than if the equivalent spell was cast directly.

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Personally I love this idea, Magic really needs a re-vamp.

 

Firstly, i would like to suggest that magic could have its own 'virtual inventory' to store the virtual spells? Like a magicians pouch.

 

What sparang to mind is that Ethereality could effect how much 'magic' you could carry. Having it seperate from Might.

 

Fighters top up Phys and Coord=>Used for fighting but also helps with the fact that they need to carry alot.

Mages top up Will and Vit => For eth points but also they can carry more spells. It creates a distinct division between the two skills but allows for some degree of integration...

 

edit: for blessings etc, i suggest that it can be transfered only once, from Blesser to Blessed.

Edited by pennifuin

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A case for virtual essences (pre-prepared spells) to weigh nothing is that giving them any weight limits a mage's potential by their might, and not just their ethereality. This seems wrong to me, and breaking this association was the original goal of this suggestion.

 

Their limit, for non-stackable virtual essences, is in inventory slots. This is, of course, independant of might.

 

If stackable there may be a case to assigning a weight, which reasserts the might dependancy. However use is still limited by mana, and they must be used or lost by the character who invested the effort in making them. This is not the same as a Fighter carrying an unlimited number of potions that they have bought -- there the commitment is only in the end use, not the preparation.

Ahhh yess...I reckon you've got a golden idea. I've been saying that for a while, that essences limit the potential of magic users. You'd have to be more of a generalist instead of a pure magic user to get by. We all know magic doesn't return any money and its used as an extention to pk.

There are times when I do run out of inventory space because of the sheer numbers of essences I have to carry. I would love to 'ready spells' to make them into virtual essences.

I'm just thinking though, that the virtual essences should just be a new type of essence that you can use the quickspell icon for and 'ghost' it like phantoms. E.g. a readied spell of invis would have the light blue invis icon in your inventory but transparent, weighing in at a low EMU would be fantastic.

A few things worth considering...

Logging in and out will remove them?

Magic Nexus of 5 is a given?

Use of mana when prepping the spell and when its being used?

Whats the exp for prepping them?

 

I got other impure thoughts as well that needs to be ironed out but overall I reckon you got a great idea :confused:

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ttlanhil:

Since creating the virtual item/essence is done at your leisure, there would be the same risk of losing ingredients as you would have making any other item. So overall more essences would be consumed than if the equivalent spell was cast directly.

actually, the point I was making was that even the part at your leisure would (or, IMO, should) cause even more losses than you've pointed out.

I'm assuming that the skill to build the spell package would be magic... and I don't think it's much of a stretch for packaging a spell to take a little mana, a bit more skill, and a tad more essences (or some other item like a spell 'vial') than casting at the time (and yes, the relation to potion vials and summon stones is intentional)

 

one point, though, about them disappearing if dropped in a deathbag... no need, simply delete them all when someone dies. you don't get any chance at all to keep them through death.

however, if you go with the spell-vial approach, they could just all be drained, and then have the standard (per perk, day, and rosto) chance to be dropped

A few things worth considering...

Logging in and out will remove them?

that wouldn't be fair on people with network problems, and the rationale behind them being binded to the current life of the player who made them doesn't carry over (disconnects don't really 'exist' to someone in the world)
Magic Nexus of 5 is a given?
this one worries me... magic nexus, so far, is used by crafters (and manu-ers, for enchanted swords)... it could also apply to prepared spells, but is contrary to the mage-specialist idea
Use of mana when prepping the spell and when its being used?
I'd say a bit to bind them, then the usual (or maybe a little less, but between now and the binding, you still use more) to cast. but that's just my opinion, this is a tuning issue
Whats the exp for prepping them?
for this, I'd say consider summon stones vs summoning (and the same comparison for stuff like rec levels, nexii, etc) Edited by ttlanhil

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I remember what you said about higher lvl spells should require magic nexus to cast. I only have 1, but I have no quarms with this.

Magic Nexus to cast (or ready) magic spells simply makes sense

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[/indent] roja:

A case for virtual essences (pre-prepared spells) to weigh nothing is that giving them any weight limits a mage's potential by their
might
, and not just their
ethereality
. This seems wrong to me, and breaking this association was the original goal of this suggestion.

 

Their limit, for
non-stackable
virtual essences, is in inventory slots. This is, of course, independant of might.

 

If stackable there may be a case to assigning a weight, which reasserts the might dependancy. However use is still limited by mana, and they must be used or lost by the character who invested the effort in making them. This is not the same as a Fighter carrying an unlimited number of potions that they have bought -- there the commitment is only in the end use, not the preparation.

 

 

The way I understand it is that the Virtual essence doesnt really exist its just an ingame/inv icon to represent what has been stored to memory .

So they should be Stackable but limited in the number you can carry not by EMU but lets say by Magic level halved rounded down

 

Ie: low level mage of 9 magic can store 4 Essences

high level mage of 60 magic can store 30 Ess.

 

This in my opinion makes it more realistic as a higher level mage has trained his intellect more than a low one.Governing them down by making them non-stackable means in theory our level 9 mage can carry as many as our level 60 which doesnt really fit with the idea I think you are aiming at.

 

 

Think its a must that a min Nexus is required to use them ,wether thats 4,5 or 6 .

 

Edit:

Just on a personal note I love the way the game is classless ,one day I can be a fighter the nxt I can be making fur hats but any idea that gives the player and unforced option to specialize in any given field should they so wish gets the thumbs up from me
:D Edited by conavar

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After reading pennifuin's post I got this idea:

 

Instead of having a new inventory window with its own slots, a new type of unit for measuring weight could be used, or "virtual" weight. Your virtual weight carrying abilities will not be limited by phys, but another attribute that would better suit mages, like ethereality (how pennifuin mentioned).

Virtual items, or even essences could take up virtual weight, instead of EMU (or maybe even both :devlish: ).

 

Not sure if you will completely understand what I'm trying to say.

Thats just my two cents.

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:devlish:

Ok why not make it so that you have a completely different carrying thing for a set of essences, that can take away some of the problems being had with carrying stuff and the essences, but it might cause some problems down the road

Just an idea tell me what u think :blink:

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virtual items vs. virtual essences:

Currently object types can be grouped into two classes:
storable
and
non-storable
. This thread adds a third classification;
non-transferable
, as described by virtual items (non-transferable implies non-storable).

There is a more restrictive category still;
cursed
items, which cannot be removed from inventory by any normal means, or, if equipable, cannot be unequipped.

The discussion has concerntrated on the use of virtual items for high level magic; this is ok; it was afterall the original driver for the suggestion.

 

However, magic is not their only application.

 

Keeping the rules for virtual items as general as possible helps implementation; with only a check for transferability added to dropping and trading (they are implicitly non-storable). Virtual essences then behave as normal essences for the purpose of spell casting.

 

If we start to specialise the concept towards magic, then more has to be implemented, and the generic role of virtual items is compromised.

For example:
A
"Blessing"
could be a virtual item you receive, and can use later. This could come from a Priest NPC or another character casting a spell on you. Does not represent a virtual item being transfered, but rather created in your inventory by an external agent. It is
not
a virtual essence, as its use has nothing to do with magic or mana.

Edited by trollson

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duran:

I started thinking about scrolls for this, but I specifically wanted something that couldn't be passed around; for magic, you could consider the virtual items as a spell that the mage has pre-caste, and just needs the final invokation and mana expense.

 

Equipable items that draw on essences in storage, or which reduce spell costs by one specific essence, are also a good ideas to liberate the mage from the need to bulk up.

 

Do you see the remote-inventory access as being limited in the quantity of essences used? Would a "Staff of Magic" just provide one magic essence from storage, or as many as are needed?

 

iirc the idea was that say a wand/staff of death essence would allow the holder to access any and all death essence the person had in his storage.

 

so there would be a limit to the essence types you can access this way (as the items would take up slots) but not the number of essences you could use per spell.

 

so you would pick items that cover the spells you use the most and the rest would be maintained the old fashion way.

 

one could wonder if not it would make potions obsolete, but i don't think so. a potion can be used by anyone, regardless of training. a spell would still require the caster to have the knowhow to cast it.

 

still, i would guess that a lot of people would look for items of health essence as they could then cast the low level self healing spell any time.

 

there is also the cost in energy to take into consideration. a potion do not have that issue :P

 

still, i would like to see some kind of scroll system (or maybe to be different, coins? as in a coin pr spell :)) as the magic users really need a income of some sort.

Edited by duran

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Use of magic nexus:

It does seem odd to me that the magic nexus was not used for magic; but maybe that is because we do not yet have
"professional"
spells which require it? Similarly for equiping magical items, as the human nexus is not really approprate.

 

One thing I keep coming back to is that we should break any notional association of a nexus with a specific skill. Think in terms of the task being performed, and then freely decide on the most appropriate skill, nexus, and difficulty (level). You have many more combinations giving greater diversity in what characters can do depending on their choices.

Rewarding mage attributes development:

Suggestions for a seperate magic inventory and/or stacking limits dependant on mage attributes (ethereality): In terms of implementation these seem more invasive, requiring specific checks at more points. Is this worth the effort? It is also specialising away from the general concept of virtual items.

 

I quite like to keep things simple -- one inventory for both real and virtual items becomes a resource allocation strategy for players; particularly for generalists who have a greater range of things to carry. This has to be a good thing in terms of game play.

 

Rewarding attribute developement beyond just more mana is a good goal though.

 

Is it necessary to introduce stacking limits on virtual essences though; even if they have zero weight. The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that these should be zero weight and without stacking limits (if stackable). Their use is limited by available mana, and mana recovery is limited by potion cooldown (and carrying potions, though that can be done by the mage's lacky).

 

Of course, a virtual essence for a mana-drain type spell would have to be non-stackable!

 

Draw an analogy with fighters; higher attributes improve their combat performance (damage done, damage resisted, etc). Could the same approach be take with mages? With high mage attributes giving you a default magic defense (cf. toughness). Spell effects could be adjusted by both level and an appropriate attribute (vision enhancing spells by perception and so on).

Money for Mages:

I do like the idea of creating scrolls to give mages an income. Scroll use could require a check against 'rationality' (since they are read), rather than the magic skill of the end user.
But these serve a different role to using virtual items, which are intended to make the mage more powerful, and not his customer.

 

Virtual items could also server to earn a mage (or priest) money using the 'blessing' method described above: A set of spells which bestow a 'virtual item' on another character, which can be used to enable some effect at a later time. The enabling spell would require mana when cast, but using the blessing would not. Blessing would have to be non-stackable.

 

Avoid competition with potions by not duplicating the nature of the effect.

Edited by trollson

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Virtual items and 'use with' static objects

Consider using static objects as tools in the creation of items; in the same way as you can
'use with'
raw meat on a lit fire to create cooked meat.

 

A limit in the game semantics is that we can only
'use with'
one item at a time, so it is hard to combine this with mixing of ingredients (unless the approach I describe in
is possible).

 

Virtual items can be used to represent intermediate preparations, created through the usual mixing dialog, which can then be
'used with'
a static object to turn them into the finished item.

 

Ideally these intermediate items would have a short lifespan, as the represent work done in combining several ingredients with the static tool; but I doubt that the effort of implementing this is worthwhile or really desirable. Having them non-stackable would be sufficient.

 

Example:
Making a pizza from raw ingredients could require the use of a pizza oven:
  1. Use
    wheat
    with
    mill
    (static)
    to give
    flour
    (real)
    .

  2. Mix
    water
    [1]
    and
    flour
    to give
    dough
    (virtual)
    .

  3. Mix
    dough
    and
    vegitables
    to give
    uncooked pizza
    (virtual)
    .

  4. Use
    uncooked pizza
    with
    oven
    (static)
    to give
    pizza
    (real)
    .

  5. Eat
    pizza
    , drink
    beer
    ...

[1] Ideally plain water, not water essence; sapphires are too cruchy for most pizzas. Beer or ale can be used to make the dough (it contains the yeast).

 

Virtual items as for Quests

Virtual items can be used as
quest objects
and rewards; to ensure that the questor is actually doing the work, and not just buying in the results.

 

Some deeds could create a representative virtual item in the character's inventory, which is used later in the quest. Since the item cannot be transferred, the same character must follow the quest through.

 

A quest could provide a
"experience token"
[2]
in the form of a virtual item. The character can take this item to an appropriate teacher (NPC) who will convert it to experience in a skill.

 

These are similar to what is already done with scripting and hidden markers on the character, but may save quest scripting and give a better playing experience?

[2] This use of virtual items arose from reading the "Experience and Items" thread.

Edited by trollson

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The virtual item is a bit odd but makes sense in a role playing aspect. Mages generally memorize spells & only need an object like a staff or wand to direct the magic. A well trained mage doesn't even need that. Objects such as essenses would be more for ritual magic which would not be performed during combat.

 

If casting spells is to become a skill in its own right like summoning, then scroll production ought to be concidered. *curses self for not actively increasing magic level beyond tele-to-range*

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I like the idea. Scrolls would obviously be the traditional answer for this, but if you want something more original and etherial, you could call them (a few possibilities):

 

Aethers

Quintessence motes ("motes")

Magic condensates ("condensates")

Runes

Spirit crystals

Spell bindings ("bindings")

Confluxes

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Wandering about in the forums, I stumbled on this thread, and found it quite interesting. The idea of chacterizing objects by their transferability, creating a class of manufacturable and usable but not transferable objects, is full of promises, easy to implement, and could then be used as appropriate to create new mechanisms.

The discussion about magic is also interesting, but accidental compared to the real essence of the idea.

 

So, was this suggestion explicitly discounted, or simply abandoned due to lack of momentum?

 

 

P.S.: Usl was five days old when Trollson's suggestion was originally posted; this gives a good measure of how noob I still am... :P

Edited by Usl

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Wandering about in the forums, I stumbled on this thread, and found it quite interesting. The idea of chacterizing objects by their transferability, creating a class of manufacturable and usable but not transferable objects, is full of promises, easy to implement, and could then be used as appropriate to create new mechanisms.

The discussion about magic is also interesting, but accidental compared to the real essence of the idea.

 

So, was this suggestion explicitly discounted, or simply abandoned due to lack of momentum?

 

 

P.S.: Usl was five days old when Trollson's suggestion was originally posted; this gives a good measure of how noob I still am... :P

You have a magic QuickBar, and the spell essences are supposed to take up EMU. you will always need to carry & use them up, or some physical item (such as summon stones for summoning). There will be no virtual or fake items that don't take up any inventory slots or have no EMU. That is not how this game is balanced.

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You have a magic QuickBar, and the spell essences are supposed to take up EMU. you will always need to carry & use them up, or some physical item (such as summon stones for summoning). There will be no virtual or fake items that don't take up any inventory slots or have no EMU. That is not how this game is balanced.

 

One might argue that coins have no emu, and that sigils have their separate inventory and can't be transferred or broken. So virtual items in some sense already exist, and they are definitely not fake at all. Moreover, the quick bar is a shorthand, it's not an inventory, and this is an important distinction, especially in the case of magic.

 

However, maybe a fundamental point has been missed: the discussion is about how the game might be differently balanced, and not about how to subvert its economical structure or playing experience. While I'm not entirely convinced myslef in having virtual items for general use, if you follow up the

EL forum thread about magic ,

you see that the ability to produce non-transferable, low EMU items from essences and mana, as a way to stock in your inventory a certain amount of pre-made non-transferable magic speel that you can cast later, it has been considered a possible way to reduce the current unbalance among PK fighters and magicians.

 

The main point is, that they are not transferable, not that they have no EMU, or their stack-ability. Full discussion about magic is maybe out of topic here, I am trying to make the point that so-valled virtual items, if properly defined, may actually help to balance the game, and not subvert its economics.

 

To make a simple example, having powerful summoning stones non-transferable, if ever convenient for the balance of the game, would increase personal power of summoners, but maybe decrease their economic revenues. Before summoners decide to annihilate me, I stress that I am not proposing that, it's just an example... :-)

 

Xam

Edited by massimoC

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You have a magic QuickBar, and the spell essences are supposed to take up EMU. you will always need to carry & use them up, or some physical item (such as summon stones for summoning). There will be no virtual or fake items that don't take up any inventory slots or have no EMU. That is not how this game is balanced.

 

One might argue that coins have no emu, and that sigils have their separate inventory and can't be transferred or broken. So virtual items in some sense already exist, and they are definitely not fake at all. Moreover, the quick bar is a shorthand, it's not an inventory, and this is an important distinction, especially in the case of magic.

 

However, maybe a fundamental point has been missed: the discussion is about how the game might be differently balanced, and not about how to subvert its economical structure or playing experience. While I'm not entirely convinced myslef in having virtual items for general use, if you follow up the

EL forum thread about magic ,

you see that the ability to produce non-transferable, low EMU items from essences and mana, as a way to stock in your inventory a certain amount of pre-made non-transferable magic speel that you can cast later, it has been considered a possible way to reduce the current unbalance among PK fighters and magicians.

 

The main point is, that they are not transferable, not that they have no EMU, or their stack-ability. Full discussion about magic is maybe out of topic here, I am trying to make the point that so-valled virtual items, if properly defined, may actually help to balance the game, and not subvert its economics.

 

To make a simple example, having powerful summoning stones non-transferable, if ever convenient for the balance of the game, would increase personal power of summoners, but maybe decrease their economic revenues. Before summoners decide to annihilate me, I stress that I am not proposing that, it's just an example... :-)

 

Xam

Yes, gc should have EMU ... but think of the sigils a magical knowledge imbeded in your head, not as an item. They are never lost of consumed in any way.

 

For balance purposes summoning stones do have emu, and many people could argue that they are our of balance.

 

The basic magic system wont be changing, no virtual items will be added. Mages will always need to have their essences & mana to cast a spell.

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