EU Expansion

[conavar]

 

If not for the welfare system then why ? They have past through many other countrys on there way here Germany.France etc so why not settle there o yeah they not a soft touch

 

 

 

And I happen to be from the country which is the primary exporter of workers. I've never heard of someone NOT getting a job in the UK (by the way, you also seem to forget that you DON'T have to be registered to work. It's called illegal working and that also happens frequently), Quote actual figures before you start insulting honest and brave people who leave their families for many months and spend subsequent holidays far from home to ensure better living to their families, often ending up working in humiliating conditions - which can only be compared to slavery - without getting ANY social benefits at all (recently a major slave work camp has been discovered in Italy, but only yesterday I've heard about another possible camp in the UK).

 

Oh, and here's some actual numbers I've found - according to CBOS (Centrum Badania Opini Spolecznej, The Public Opinion Research Center, one of the leading research centres in Poland), 31% of the Polish people have someone in their family who went abroad to work after May 1st 2004. 80% of them declare that their family members work legally and 12% - illegally (that indicator dropped from 25% in 2005). It leaves out 8% for the workers who didn't get any job.

 

"The vast majority of workers since May 2004 are young: 82% aged between 18 and 34. 93% of

workers state that they have no dependants living with them in the UK when they registered, and

only 3% had dependants under the age of 17 with them." (so much for taking their entire families with them).

 

I find any further discussion with you on the topic pointless.

 

 

Quote actual figures before you start insulting honest and brave people who leave their families for many months and spend subsequent holidays far from home to ensure better living to their families, often ending up working in humiliating conditions - which can only be compared to slavery - without getting ANY social benefits at all (recently a major slave work camp has been discovered in Italy, but only yesterday I've heard about another possible camp in the UK).

 

Any figures From an official goverment source can not be 100% trusted or didnt you know goverments have a habit of blurring the truth (And Britains is no differant) you are better off getting figures from independent sources

 

Thats true we have them all shackled together in the cotton fields singing gospel songs.

 

Must agree alot do work illegally for Gangmasters who use them as cheap labour in packing plants etc but they also earn as much in a week as they would in there home country in a month and if its that bad they are not forced to stay but most do . So cant be total evil can it ?? (slightly off topic could never understand young men fleeing oppression and poverty always left there familys behind. !! would be my first goal to see my family safe at ANY cost )

 

Oh, and here's some actual numbers I've found - according to CBOS (Centrum Badania Opini Spolecznej, The Public Opinion Research Center, one of the leading research centres in Poland), 31% of the Polish people have someone in their family who went abroad to work after May 1st 2004. 80% of them declare that their family members work legally and 12% - illegally (that indicator dropped from 25% in 2005). It leaves out 8% for the workers who didn't get any job.

 

8% who didnt get a job and 12% who work illegally (and more than likely claims benifits because the Gov does not know they are working) makes 20% who are proberly claiming benefits .So a conservative figure from the 600,000 total immigrants (not just Poles) would equal 120,000 people claiming welfare,not a small amount you would agree and thats just from one year.

 

 

The vast majority of workers since May 2004 are young: 82% aged between 18 and 34.

 

Which is what I stated most are young teen/early 20's

 

 

I find any further discussion with you on the topic pointless

 

True because until you have lived here and seen it with your own eyes then you are not going to understand and we will be disagreeing till nxt christmas.

I say you dont understand not in a disrespectful way but you can only comment as someone from the outside looking in. ie: I can read the net and papers and comment on the living conditions in Africa but until you have seen it and lived it yourself you dont really get an understanding.

 

And you can find Stats on the net and I can find Stats that contradict them and Vice versa be here all day

Edited January 8, 2007 by conavar

[Zafyra]

How about we just close the issue by saying that the EU Expansion is both good and bad for all parties involved?

[Mireille]

How about we just close the issue by saying that the EU Expansion is both good and bad for all parties involved?

 

There will never be a serious discussion as long as at least one side says "I know this because everyone says so". The ignorance of the way EU works is abundant and frightening (what's more, some people are proud of being ignorant, which is even more scary). And it seems to me that even though you are Korean, you know more about it than most Europeans.

Edited January 9, 2007 by Mireille

[Form_]

 

Now that they are part of the EU (Pending special conditions of course), they wil have to integrate with tougher European laws on everything. Women's rights, human rights, animal rights, environmental and sustainability laws, criminal justice, blah blah blah.

 

 

You mean we can't kill a pig on the street with a kitchen knife?

[sparhawk]

lmao trust me it is more than a few .It ok commenting from half a world away with a very blinkered view of what is actually happening.

 

Have you seen all parts of Britian?

 

Anyhow now we know were we all stand...

 

Next time lets argue about NATO?

[conavar]

lmao trust me it is more than a few .It ok commenting from half a world away with a very blinkered view of what is actually happening.

 

Have you seen all parts of Britian?

 

Anyhow now we know were we all stand...

 

Next time lets argue about NATO?

 

 

Majority yes . Britain is not that large a place that you cant.

 

so anyway about NATO

[sithicus]

Yes perhaps theres the odd family across the street in which you hold contempt for because they might be on welfare. It's always a person to person thing. Besides, Britian could use more Multiculturism and it's doing more good than bad.

 

So much ignorance, in the 21th century? Isn't britain the country where you can be prosecuted because your dog injured a burglar in your house? I thought the london bombing was a wake-up call of sorts but then some people might need a few more similar attacks before they understand.

 

Multiculturalism is one person of each nationality in one village, with no one nationality being there in force. Multiculturalism is having a restaurant of several countries in your city. It is NOT having a mob of islamic youths who like to rob, rape and burn because they hate your race and religion.

 

There is the very unpleasant truth that certain cultures from africa and mideast are bandit-like and unkind to the modern european standards. Of course, there are idiots in the western world who wave away all criticism of other cultures is merely culturally insensitive. However, a gun-waving savage from the desert may leave the gun behind, the mind behind the gun does not stay in the country of origin. It comes here.

 

This is why I think poles, bulgarians and the like won't pose a problem because even if they cluster as much as the old immigrants, at least their standards of decency are more like my own.

[sparhawk]

It is NOT having a mob of islamic youths who like to rob, rape and burn because they hate your race and religion.

 

How racist it this??? We burned, raped and burn even more in the past and still to this day. In Ireland you still have Orange extremists. America still has the KKK, and though they are not active they still are there.

 

There is the very unpleasant truth that certain cultures from africa and mideast are bandit-like and unkind to the modern european standards. Of course, there are idiots in the western world who wave away all criticism of other cultures is merely culturally insensitive.

 

What unpleasant truth? You are just supported the view of the media on completely unstable countries that HAVE been not so "Middle East Sandman has an AK-47"

 

However, a gun-waving savage from the desert may leave the gun behind, the mind behind the gun does not stay in the country of origin. It comes here.

 

Kk, the soldiers we send there forget about all the killing they've done when they come back.

 

This is why I think poles, bulgarians and the like won't pose a problem because even if they cluster as much as the old immigrants, at least their standards of decency are more like my own.

 

Omg, every country has it's bad side. Your saying that Europeans are SO much better than other culturers particulary Islamic.

 

BTW: You are VERY ignorant, as I can see by your post.

Edited January 12, 2007 by sparhawk

[conavar]

 

This is why I think poles, bulgarians and the like won't pose a problem because even if they cluster as much as the old immigrants, at least their standards of decency are more like my own.

 

Omg, every country has it's bad side. Your saying that Europeans are SO much better than other culturers particulary Islamic.

 

 

My girlfriend come from Coventry if any of you know it and most of there problems isnt from asians or africans its from Kosovans .

 

Me and sparhawk disagree on most things but must admit Europeans are no better or worse than any one else.Some times Differant cultures dont mix well with each other and that is not a political or religious things just an upbringing thing

[sithicus]

Ah well. Sparhawk is using classical arguments that are basically to be reduced to their simple fascist form: 'you are against the dogma of the Self-Appointed Cultural/Racial Elite, then you are a nazi/racist/ignorant/enemy combatant'. Please, mister keyboard warrior, keep your voice down, I did not intend to start a fight.

 

As for the use of the word racist, this means discrimination by race, which is not what is in my post. At best you can consider it discrimination by culture, which has no term as does discrimination by sex, age or race. I do believe it is a better culture here than it is in desert hell where everyone has a moral licence to kill and may go on a rage of death whenever god or his priest tells them to. Most people in western europe are opposed to the idea of violent revolution and genocide, this is precisely why I like it better than the mid-east. One thing I have found out is the hideous tacit understanding for terrorism that even the most civilised immigrants here seem to have if you pull it out of them. Given the fact that I meet them at all means the ones I spoke to are the elite so this bodes ill for the opinion of the mobs of the back streets.

 

As kozovars are concerned, they are albanians and are NOT going to join the EU, not even being discussed. Kosovo and albania are in a way further away from joining than turkey. I am talking about bulgarians and romanians and what others are on the list.

 

What you say about different cultures not mixing well is dead on target, as far as my own point of view is concerned. But mixing goes better the smaller the amount to be mixed. I think the kosovars in coventry would be OK if there were only a few of them.

Edited January 12, 2007 by sithicus

[jamesjersey]

....ill write something tomorrow. i hope..( mods can delete this)

Edited January 13, 2007 by jamesjersey

[MagpieLee]

I can't believe someone said Britain could use more multiculturism. I'm shocked ! lol

I've been away from this friend too long to say anything thats not already been said.

[Zafyra]

I can't believe someone said Britain could use more multiculturism. I'm shocked ! lol

I've been away from this friend too long to say anything thats not already been said.

 

I approve of this quote, though I would not say that Britain is too multicultural, nor would I say that it is multicultural enough. There are people in Britain who are incredibly tolerant and friendly to other races and cultures and there are people who are not.

 

And to those who say that Europeans are better (whatever, still can't be arsed to read all the posts), it is a matter of perception - other races will think they are better than another race because of this and that. WHO GIVES A FLYING FUCK? We're all equally better and worse than others in general - our negatives balance out our positives and don't dare say that there are people who are perfect - I bet you they pick their noses or something when they're in the toilet by themselves taking a shit.

 

Oh, and define better plx. Some countries may run "better" with dictatorships and some may run better with so-called "democracies". Some countries may be "better" at football and others may be "better" at rugby.

 

For gawd's sake people, it's nice to see that there are people getting involved in politics but when you go too far you look like idiots (not specifically looking at anyone, cos it kinda includes myself and also other people in RL I know of.)

 

What you say about different cultures not mixing well is dead on target

 

I would have to so agree. But, unfortunately, it is impossible to have a culture or a group of people alone unless you buy an island somewhere in the Carribean or something.

 

 

I'll add more when I can be arsed.

[sparhawk]

Omg.. cultures can mix, we are not living in the dark ages. I know in my community it is like we are one race, Europeans, Asians, Africans, North Americans and South Americans all live together.

 

I have friends from (background)...

India

Sri lankan

saudi arabia

Vietnam

African

European(Scottish, Polish, Dutch, Italian, Serbian, Croation etc)

Argentina

Brazil

Indonesia

Philipines

Iraq

Jamaican

 

Including the religions

 

Islamic

Buddhist

Christian (Catholic and Protestant)

Hindu

 

When I look around, I see these cultures intergrated. There is no racism, at least not much in the bigger cities. So when I see you guys say cultures can't mix I think "where in the world do you guys live?"

 

Perhaps it is how I grew up, I come from two backgrounds and in a society that supports multiculturalism and anti-racism.

[Zafyra]

Ah, sorry, I'll clarify - I meant cultures as in the big picture - 2 countries mixing with each other. Small groups integrating well I definitely agree. I have lots of friend who are from differing backgrounds from me but when I meant that 2 or more countries not mixing well, not the people.

[conavar]

 

 

Me and sparhawk disagree on most things but must admit Europeans are no better or worse than any one else.Some times Differant cultures dont mix well with each other and that is not a political or religious things just an upbringing thing

 

 

Omg.. cultures can mix, we are not living in the dark ages. I know in my community it is like we are one race, Europeans, Asians, Africans, North Americans and South Americans all live together.

 

 

When I look around, I see these cultures intergrated. There is no racism, at least not much in the bigger cities. So when I see you guys say cultures can't mix I think "where in the world do you guys live?"

 

Perhaps it is how I grew up, I come from two backgrounds and in a society that supports multiculturalism and anti-racism.

 

 

Cultures do not always mix well ,not saying all the time or even most of the time but not all the time

 

You start taking a mixture of people from many differant countrys and put them all in one melting pot you are going to sometimes get culture clashes.

 

It happens in Britain quite alot and I dont mean English whites against Other Races more often than not its one immigrant group against another. Albanias vs Turks, Turks vs Kosovans, Pakistani vs Indian ( history thing ), Pakistani vs Africans etc etc etc.

 

You can not expect or believe that placing people with totally differant upringings ,religion,beliefs,moral codes is 100% succesful 100% of the time its not possible

 

A lot of immigrants are less racially tolerant than British people for no other reason than ignorance and thats not saying they are not educated or thick but because they havent had the contact with Africans/asians/ etc other countrys have.

[sithicus]

Omg.. cultures can mix, we are not living in the dark ages. I know in my community it is like we are one race, Europeans, Asians, Africans, North Americans and South Americans all live together.

 

I have friends from (background)...

India

Sri lankan

saudi arabia

Vietnam

African

European(Scottish, Polish, Dutch, Italian, Serbian, Croation etc)

Argentina

Brazil

Indonesia

Philipines

Iraq

Jamaican

 

Including the religions

 

Islamic

Buddhist

Christian (Catholic and Protestant)

Hindu

 

When I look around, I see these cultures intergrated. There is no racism, at least not much in the bigger cities. So when I see you guys say cultures can't mix I think "where in the world do you guys live?"

 

Perhaps it is how I grew up, I come from two backgrounds and in a society that supports multiculturalism and anti-racism.

 

See, we agree after all. You sum up a pretty large list of different backgrounds. In my work environment its the same, with minor exceptions, that everyone gets along pretty well, but then, there are too many different people to have clan formation.

 

Which means, everyone has to adapt to some consensus culture and is not truly in their own culture anymore. Give em a clan of 100 others of the same culture to join, then see how well it goes.