EU Expansion

[Dimov]

We just got in this year. I'm kind of interested to see peoples reactions, be it Bulgarian/Romanian, Euro Zone, the second to last expansion ( Poland and the Czech Republic). Over here (BG) you can't get a distinctive reaction as there are people that are glad about it, people that bitch about it, cautiosly optimistic/pessimistic. So come on speak up.

 

 

NOTE: Please do not transform this into a smegflingingfest.

[Mireille]

We just got in this year. I'm kind of interested to see peoples reactions, be it Bulgarian/Romanian, Euro Zone, the second to last expansion ( Poland and the Czech Republic).

 

 

8 more countries joined on May 1st 2004... or is it only the Poles' and the Czechs' opinion that you care about?

 

 

Over here (BG) you can't get a distinctive reaction as there are people that are glad about it, people that bitch about it, cautiosly optimistic/pessimistic. So come on speak up.

 

 

Bulgaria and Romania are now the two poorest countries in the EU. It means that Poland is not second, but fourth in the ranking of poverty, hehe...

 

Anyway. The concern of the Poles relating to the accession of Bulgaria and Romania is that there will be less money from the EU structural policy left for Poland now. Some are also disturbed by the high level of corruption. But then, many people like speding holidays in Bulgaria, this sentiment dates back to the communist times (the Golden Sands). Furthermore, Poland is one of the few EU countries where most people actually support the continuation of the EU's enlargement process. Other states (France, most notably) are much more reluctant.

The Poles are also not afraid of the influx of cheap Bulgarian workforce. That's something for Italy or Spain to worry about.

 

Personally, I am happy because Bulgaria is where Mira Aroyo comes from. In other words, welcome, and I hope Bulgaria's membership will be beneficial both for it and the EU.

Edited January 3, 2007 by Mireille

[Vanyel]

I'm glad to see both of the countries in. Especially Romania. Some people I really like live there:)

[Gohan]

Not to mention our favorite god has his roots there, huh Anshar?

I'm not really following who's joining as I'm already troubled to name the countries who are in and not in.

 

Maybe I should study my law lessons harder.

 

-Blee

[BlacKat]

I'm from Romania and i'm glad we finally joined. I was hoping that maybe this way people will try not to think of us like a poor country on the edge of Europe but like a member of the same growing family. But i guess there are many mean thoughts out there, especially of the selfish people who think they get poorer by helping others. Its easy to judge when you have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not defending romanians or bulgarians, god i know we're on the bottom of the ranks especially because of out own stupidity, meanness and lazyness, as Nietzsche said "Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.", but everybody has to start somewhere and what better people to learn from than THE AWESOME GERMANS, THE BRAVE FRENCH AND THE HANDSOME ENGLISH?

[Dimov]

Well, I was going to put an etc. at the end, but have forgotten. Anyways As far as I know Bulgaria is the pooest followed by Romania (which is not so poor). I'm also quite glad and optimistic that we've joined.

[Vanyel]

Not to mention our favorite god has his roots there, huh Anshar?

I'm not really following who's joining as I'm already troubled to name the countries who are in and not in.

 

Maybe I should study my law lessons harder.

 

-Blee

 

Honestly didn't mean him at all. o.O Why should I?

[Mireille]

I'm from Romania and i'm glad we finally joined. I was hoping that maybe this way people will try not to think of us like a poor country on the edge of Europe but like a member of the same growing family.

 

Bah, that's how it's done in the EU. When Poland was joining in, the same reactions could be heard from Spain, which was (and still is) one of the poorest countries of the EU-15.

 

But yes, I also find such attitude annoying. Reducing the idea of integration to "lyk 0mg how much is it gonna cost and how much are we gonna get from it?". Pathetic.

Edited January 3, 2007 by Mireille

[sithicus]

You can now just drive to whichever country you want and no paperwork or visa are needed. This will be compensated royally, with other paperwork. There will be rules, rules and more rules that romania has to cope with, brussels taking control of how precisely you catch rats, house your cattle and store your food. If the romanian government has a problem, they can blame brussels for it.

 

If romanians are willing to speak other languages, they will benefit economically quickly.

 

So, speaking of expansion, what do romanians think of turkey joining?

Edited January 3, 2007 by sithicus

[MagpieLee]

Anyway. The concern of the Poles relating to the accession of Bulgaria and Romania is that there will be less money from the EU structural policy left for Poland now. Some are also disturbed by the high level of corruption. But then, many people like speding holidays in Bulgaria, this sentiment dates back to the communist times (the Golden Sands). Furthermore, Poland is one of the few EU countries where most people actually support the continuation of the EU's enlargement process. Other states (France, most notably) are much more reluctant.

The Poles are also not afraid of the influx of cheap Bulgarian workforce. That's something for Italy or Spain to worry about.

This is a vision shared by some of the citizens of the UK. Geographically, the UK seems further away then Spain/Italy/France but I've read some reports that there's a high % projected and already the scaremongers are at work trying to portray a crippling UK in a few years time. Anyone read the Daily Express?

 

I'm from Romania and i'm glad we finally joined. I was hoping that maybe this way people will try not to think of us like a poor country on the edge of Europe but like a member of the same growing family. But i guess there are many mean thoughts out there, especially of the selfish people who think they get poorer by helping others. Its easy to judge when you have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not defending romanians or bulgarians, god i know we're on the bottom of the ranks especially because of out own stupidity, meanness and lazyness, as Nietzsche said "Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.", but everybody has to start somewhere and what better people to learn from than THE AWESOME GERMANS, THE BRAVE FRENCH AND THE HANDSOME ENGLISH?

Again, there have been projections from opposite sides. One's that say that an influx will cause a rise in unemployment, housing costs, debts, waiting lists, taxation, crime. Another side saying, that it will benefit from extra labour, culture and increase productivity.

The fact is, we will not know which of these sides are correct. Only time will tell. Coupla years ago, 8 countries joined the EU. Do you reckon they have grown noticably richer or poorer? I can't really tell.

 

You can now just drive to whichever country you want and no paperwork or visa are needed. This will be compensated royally, with other paperwork. There will be rules, rules and more rules that romania has to cope with, brussels taking control of how precisely you catch rats, house your cattle and store your food. If the romanian government has a problem, they can blame brussels for it.

 

If romanians are willing to speak other languages, they will benefit economically quickly.

 

So, speaking of expansion, what do romanians think of turkey joining?

This is where it gets good. Now that they are part of the EU (Pending special conditions of course), they wil have to integrate with tougher European laws on everything. Women's rights, human rights, animal rights, environmental and sustainability laws, criminal justice, blah blah blah. This is what's really going to help the 2 new countries modernise into a more continental Europe. Trading will be easier as well as travel as well as travel so I'm sure RnB will benefit greatly from them

Another critical factor is if both join the single currency. I reckon' that'd really help their economic growth and assist in trading commodities.

I haven't really met any RL RnB's but I hope I get to soon. The only problem I have with is Albanians. The press really give them a hard time due to them having human sex trades. A couple of them have also harassed my sister(s) so they are not on my good list

 

As for Turkish joining, it will be the first time that a Islamic state - and Eurasian country joinining the EU. Currently, the EU want them to 'clean up' their laws and policies or something like that. They are good at football though.

[Mireille]

 

The fact is, we will not know which of these sides are correct. Only time will tell. Coupla years ago, 8 countries joined the EU.

 

mumblemublemumble10countriesmumblemumblemumble

 

 

As for Turkish joining, it will be the first time that a Islamic state - and Eurasian country joinining the EU. Currently, the EU want them to 'clean up' their laws and policies or something like that. They are good at football though.

 

Ahem, Turkey is a secular state. Most of its citizens are Muslim, but the church and the state are separated.

 

And as for Albania, this country will not join the EU in the nearest future. Any state before joining has to obtain the candidate status. But that's not enough, because the EU itself must be ready to accept these new states. And the EU is not. Why? Because the Nice Treaty (signed in 2001) contained institutional provisions for the EU of 27 (that is, "old" 15 countries + 10 new states that joined in 2004 + RnB). To accept new states into the EU, a new treaty would have to be signed and ratified. And there was such a treaty (it was called the Constitution for Europe), but it failed in the referenda in France and the Netherlands. It means that the enlargement process cannot be continued.

 

States which currently have the candidate status are Turkey, Macedonia (FYROM) and Croatia. I strongly doubt that Albania will be able to meet the requirements of obtaining the candidate status in the nearest future. Also, because "big" EU countries (most notably France and Germany) are going through a rather difficult economic situation, they will avoid the discussion about the new treaty, which is politically risky ("we have no jobs and our government wants to give our money to other nations?"), especially that France will soon be having presidential elections. Before that date, there can be no serious discussion about the future of the EU at all.

 

In other words, Albania (and other countries) will have to wait very long. If they get in at all.

[MagpieLee]

Turkey, secular state - state religion w/e. It doesn't matter.

Point is, most of its laws still evolve around its religion even though its a democratic nation now. And some of them clash with the European laws. Negotiations are underway and still ongoing to change some of them, but as with all politics its really slow.

 

I dunno if you remember but a few years ago, there was talk of a new super European group involving some of the more 'powerful' countries of the current EU. It was said that they weren't very happy with some of the fringe nations joining and there was talk about them splintering off. I'm not 100% certain that it will happen anytime soon, but there are definitly plans for it in those shadowly meetings

 

And I never said anything about Albania joining the EU, just thought I'd mention that in reference to RnBnT's, I have more of a problem with them [A] then the others (which is none and infact I like the Turks as they are the sole providers for kebabs and Emre plays for NUFC).

[Mireille]

 

I dunno if you remember but a few years ago, there was talk of a new super European group involving some of the more 'powerful' countries of the current EU.

 

Of course I do. This idea is called "enhanced cooperation" (although many other names were mantioned - "multi-speed Europe", "flexible geometry" etc.) and has been provided for since the Treaty of Amsterdam (1997). It was meant for some countries that are more equal than others to develop such form of cooperation that couldn't be pursued at the EU level, especially after the new countries (which are poor) join. It happens to be that the talks of "enhanced cooperation" suddenly got off the public's eye after the French and Dutch referenda. And why is that? Because "enhanced cooperation" was meant for France, Holland, Germany and other wealthy countries, which were supposed to become "Europe's hard core" or "the avant-garde of the integration process". Now however it became obvious that the French and the Dutch at least are tired of it and want their governments to take care of their own problems. And Germany seems to be more interested in its relations with Russia than with the rest of the EU.

Edited January 5, 2007 by Mireille

[Mugwump]

This is great to read from the point of view of a Yankee! Um, an old post-war Eisenhower kind of Yankee.....

 

In one sense, I am glad to see Eastern Europe and Western Europe sharing positive economics. I used to share work with some Estonian friends and they were happy when Estonia joined. I would like to see someday the EU overwhelm the US as a world influence. It might finish off the idiots like George Bush that think they control earth, god, etc.....

 

It looks like there is a lot of internal animosity between Eastern and Western Europe as well as within each group and each country as well. In the US our states can argue ideals the same way, but just being the US they can't seperate from each other. It didn't work in the 1860's and wouldn't be worth the losses now.

 

I just hope Europe could be one collective of countries, with certain basic laws shared to make the obvious problems more simple while still retaining nationalities as individuals.... I wish you all luck, and most importantly, PEACE!!

[conavar]

Being English all i can say is great more immergrant languages to listen to on a saturday afternoon shopping .

All in favour of countrys joining the EU and trying to better themselves but not a big fan of open borders for workers and i use workers in the loose term because most immergrants (not all some are decent ppl who want to better them selves) just arrive with there hand out for free stuff . benefits ,housing etc.

 

This in my opinion gives the country they are from a wrong bad reputation example:

 

Most brits just see ppl from the old eastern block countrys as spongers (which the majority are not i may say ) but the ones who have come here only to better themselves through are social security system dont help matters

[Mugwump]

Conavar, come to New York! And I don't mean the city itself.... I'm 40 miles away and can boast at least 20 different ethnic grocery stores in the area. All with fresher food than the plastic spew they offer at EatMore.

To be honest, you may have to screw yer neck widdershins 3 points of a degree, but the understanding will come. The future is a world on a planet, not a country in a fog.

 

Remember way back when yer great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandma got het up with a grand Viking warrior? The results are the same as yer sweet 16 daughter falling in love with a Pacific Islander.... dude, you get dibs on retirement property........

 

I am typing tongue in cheek, but it's important to me that human vs. human results in nothing worse than more humans,,,

[conavar]

lol mug im 6"3 blonde hair,blue eyes so yep more than likely viking blood

 

But talking about history is a mute point since discounting Native Americans the whole population have migrant ancestors from one country or another

 

My point was :

 

I do not disagree with other ethnic groups wanting to better themselves by coming to a differant country if they are going to support themselves/family through honest work .Wether that country be England.Germany,France or America (whos by the way treatment of Mexican immigrants is way worse than anything done in Europe).

 

What i do disagree with is getting the Dregs.the criminals,the spongers of differant countrys because our Goverment is a soft touch and our borders are wide open .

 

Seriously if MR Immigrant wants to bring his wife and children to England and WORK to support them then thats all well and good but not living here you wouldnt understand or see that the majority are Guys late teens to early twentys who just want to better themself off our state system and not through work.

 

Im sure if you had 10,000 immigrants turn up in your town and not work you would change your tune.Its easy to look at the world through rose tinted glasses but the worlds not that simple.

 

Stats taken from BBC News

 

About 600,000 people have come to work in the UK from eight nations which joined the European Union in 2004, says Home Office minister Tony McNulty.

New figures show that 447,000 people from Poland and the seven other new EU states have applied to work in the UK.

 

But Mr McNulty said the figure would be nearer 600,000 if self-employed workers - such as builders - were included.

 

And they will increase debate about whether the right to work should be limited when Bulgaria and Romania join the EU.

 

The figures show those 427,000 migrant workers who successfully registered to work brought with them 36,000 dependents - spouses and children. Some 27,000 child benefit applications were approved. The government predicted there would be 15,000 people a year from the new EU member countries moving to the UK for work.

 

But between May 2004 and June 2006 the government approved just over 427,095 work applications.

 

 

 

More than half of those - 264,560 - are from Poland. The other migrants on the worker registration scheme are from the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia and Slovenia.

 

Mark Boleat, from the Association of Labour Providers, suggested another 100,000, workers or possibly a lot more, had arrived without registering

 

 

 

Registered to work = You have to sign on at a local job centre saying you are willing to work before you can claim any social security money. saying you are willing to and actually working are two differnt things

 

Child support = Tax payers money given weekly to any child under the age of 16 or over 16 if still in full time education

 

 

People seem to forget when they stand on there PC soapbox preaching world peace that Britain is just an island and hasnt got unlimited land or resources

 

 

Total Population of Britain : 50,690,000

 

Total Population of New York State : 19,200,000

 

Bit of a differance between the sizes of our countrys Mug maybe why immigrants are noticed more here

Edited January 7, 2007 by conavar

[Mireille]

I don't get it, conavar. First you quote numbers saying that a few hundred thousand new EU citizens came to work in the UK and got a job indeed. Then you are saying that the UK doesn't have infinite resources.

 

As long as there is work, people will be coming to the UK. The new EU citizens do jobs that the British don't want to do (like Mexicans in the US), so their influence on the British labout market is not as big as some nationalist populists claim. But regardless, if you work, you contribute to a welfare of the country where you work - salaries are in fact one of the components used in calculating a country's GDP. I completely don't understand why those workers shouldn't get benefits, such as child support. Furthermore, I'd say that NOT giving them benefits would be just unfair. They WORK for it so they are allowed to receive it.

Edited January 7, 2007 by Mireille

[conavar]

I don't get it, conavar. First you quote numbers saying that a few hundred thousand new EU citizens came to work in the UK and got a job indeed. Then you are saying that the UK doesn't have infinite resources.

 

no you miss the point completly THE MAJORITY DO NOT WORK. THEY JUST REGISTER TO SAY THAT THEY INTENED TO (which most never do)

 

They have registered to work which you have to do in able to claim state benifits . all that means is they have told the goverment that they are willing to find work not that they are in work or even looking for it ,its one of the wondeful loopholes in the system.

 

How it works is .every 2 weeks you go to the job centre tell them you have been looking for work but have been unable to find any so you are eligible for state handouts.Every so often the Goverment might send you for a job inteview which you have to attend to continiue recieving money.Now you can tell the would be employers you are a thief so they dont employ you but as long as you went you can continue to recieve benifits.

 

Now the question is to be honest who are most Wrong the people who come here to screw the system or the Goverment for making it that easy to do just that

 

Edit: Anyway not going to get into a flame war with anyone over this . You never change my views and I wont change yours. Politics and Religion two things you can never win an arguement over lol (but better not start on religion )

Edited January 7, 2007 by conavar

[sparhawk]

These people moved from Europe to Britian to find work, do you have something agaisnt immagration? From what I've been reading in the past this has helped Britian and that their jobless rate is low. You just can't say that most of these people go to Britian to take advantage of their welfare system. Do you know the majority of them?

 

What you quoted about the dependants I believe is a low number, these guys are not bringing their whole families. It's way less than one per person. I would believe that people who are independant are looking for work.

 

Yes perhaps theres the odd family across the street in which you hold contempt for because they might be on welfare. It's always a person to person thing. Besides, Britian could use more Multiculturism and it's doing more good than bad.

[Mireille]

I don't get it, conavar. First you quote numbers saying that a few hundred thousand new EU citizens came to work in the UK and got a job indeed. Then you are saying that the UK doesn't have infinite resources.

 

no you miss the point completly THE MAJORITY DO NOT WORK. THEY JUST REGISTER TO SAY THAT THEY INTENED TO (which most never do)

 

 

Wrong. People from the new EU states go abroad to work (or certainly most of them do). I don't know where you've got your info from.

[conavar]

These people moved from Europe to Britian to find work, do you have something agaisnt immagration? From what I've been reading in the past this has helped Britian and that their jobless rate is low. You just can't say that most of these people go to Britian to take advantage of their welfare system. Do you know the majority of them?

 

What you quoted about the dependants I believe is a low number, these guys are not bringing their whole families. It's way less than one per person. I would believe that people who are independant are looking for work.

 

Yes perhaps theres the odd family across the street in which you hold contempt for because they might be on welfare. It's always a person to person thing. Besides, Britian could use more Multiculturism and it's doing more good than bad.

 

 

You just can't say that most of these people go to Britian to take advantage of their welfare system. Do you know the majority of them?

 

No not personally but believe it or not I do read the papers ,I do watch the news. I live in a city which has been allocated (goverment wording) A large proportion of immigrants and ayslum seekers and you do know what is happening in your local community.

If not for the welfare system then why ? They have past through many other countrys on there way here Germany.France etc so why not settle there o yeah they not a soft touch

 

 

Yes perhaps theres the odd family across the street in which you hold contempt for because they might be on welfare. It's always a person to person thing. Besides, Britian could use more Multiculturism and it's doing more good than bad.

 

 

lmao trust me it is more than a few .It ok commenting from half a world away with a very blinkered view of what is actually happening.

 

Britain is one of the most Multiclutural countrys in the world.Communtitys of . Indian.Pakistanie,Chinese,Japanese,Italian,Australian,Turkish,Afro/Caribbean,Portugese etc The differance is the majority of these work hard to support themselves and there familys.

 

 

The biggest problem is as these other ethnic groups have built up over time the explosion from Eastern europe is happening all at once.

Maybe we should be more like are Liberal Friends the Canadians and put a Cap on the amount of people allowed to migrate to our country per year. 250,000 per annum I think the number is ,so considering the differant size in land mass . Britians should be about 20k

 

 

I will say again because i think people believe Im against ppl coming to work and live in the UK ,couldnt be further from the truth as long as they want to WORK .

 

Its not so much people coming into the country its the vast droves all allowed in at once.with a Police force streched to the limit and a Health service shot to pieces no one in there right mind can say its a good thing to let 100,000's of ppl into the country

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know where you've got your info from.

 

 

hmmm let me think from living here and seeing it first hand .Honestly dont patronize me im not a kid

Edited January 8, 2007 by conavar

[Mireille]

 

If not for the welfare system then why ? They have past through many other countrys on there way here Germany.France etc so why not settle there o yeah they not a soft touch

 

 

MAYBE it's because the UK opened its labour market to the new EU nationals already in 2004 while Germany and France still maintain restrictions?

 

 

hmmm let me think from living here and seeing it first hand .Honestly dont patronize me im not a kid

 

And I happen to be from the country which is the primary exporter of workers. I've never heard of someone NOT getting a job in the UK (by the way, you also seem to forget that you DON'T have to be registered to work. It's called illegal working and that also happens frequently), but I keep hearing the same littany almost everywhere: "I was in England, I worked as an au pair", "He's son is in England, he's a costruction worker", "she went to England last year, she works in a bar" and so on and so on. You said it yourself that you don't know any of those immigrants personally, so maybe you SHOULD take some interest above the common "I live here k and I know what people say" - because I know what people say too. Quote actual figures before you start insulting honest and brave people who leave their families for many months and spend subsequent holidays far from home to ensure better living to their families, often ending up working in humiliating conditions - which can only be compared to slavery - without getting ANY social benefits at all (recently a major slave work camp has been discovered in Italy, but only yesterday I've heard about another possible camp in the UK).

 

Oh, and here's some actual numbers I've found - according to CBOS (Centrum Badania Opini Spolecznej, The Public Opinion Research Center, one of the leading research centres in Poland), 31% of the Polish people have someone in their family who went abroad to work after May 1st 2004. 80% of them declare that their family members work legally and 12% - illegally (that indicator dropped from 25% in 2005). It leaves out 8% for the workers who didn't get any job.

 

Some more info, this time from the Immigration and Nationality Directorate, a subsection of the British Home Office ("Accession Monitoring Report May 2004 - September 2006", http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/6353/abou...ngreport9.pdf):

 

"Nationals from the A8 countries (10 countries which joined the EU in 2004 without Malta and Cyprus) continue to come to the UK to work, contributing to the success of the UK economy, while making few demands of our welfare system."

 

"97% of workers were working full time, and 98% of applications for National Insurance numbers

made by A8 nationals between May 2004 and September 2006 were for employment purposes."

 

"The vast majority of workers since May 2004 are young: 82% aged between 18 and 34. 93% of

workers state that they have no dependants living with them in the UK when they registered, and

only 3% had dependants under the age of 17 with them." (so much for taking their entire families with them).

 

I find any further discussion with you on the topic pointless.

Edited January 8, 2007 by Mireille

[Zafyra]

(Did not bother to read other posts so I'll just post my $0.02)

 

With the EU getting bigger and bigger, one would think that the EU could easily become an international economic powerhouse. However, this may not seem to be the case. Problems have arisen in places that you may not think would have problems.

 

Firstly, as the main, central bank of the EU is in Brussels/Frankfurt (can't remember properly, IIRC it should be Frankfurt... someone correct me on this) the control that the EU bank has on the Euro is not as strong as people may think. The increase of countries taking on the Euro (Slovakia this year) means that there is more strain and load on the EU Bank to be able to hold all these separate economies together.

 

Secondly, (probably the last one, I'll edit in more once I get a chance to think) there are small "rebellions" of some sort occuring in France and Germany. Locals are protesting against the use of the Euro and want to go back to their original currencies. In Avignon (sp?) there are shopkeepers who have begun to put up their prices as francs and centimeres (again, sp?) instead of the Euro as a stand against it.

 

Meh.

[Mireille]

Secondly, (probably the last one, I'll edit in more once I get a chance to think) there are small "rebellions" of some sort occuring in France and Germany. Locals are protesting against the use of the Euro and want to go back to their original currencies. In Avignon (sp?) there are shopkeepers who have begun to put up their prices as francs and centimeres (again, sp?) instead of the Euro as a stand against it.

 

 

A few corrections:

 

1. The European Central Bank is located in Frankfurt-am-Mein.

2. The French frank was equivalent to 100 centimes... That's what the French called the eurocents too.

3. It's Slovenia, not Slovakia.

 

And as for those "rebellions" you are talking about... Yes, France and Germany are having economic problems which, contrary to what many think, would be there even if there were no single currency. But the EU makes a very popular scapegoat and national governments like to blame Brussels for their own failures (like unability of introducing urgent social reforms). It's a political thing. Admitting to mistakes makes voters less likely to vote for you.

Edited January 8, 2007 by Mireille