Scarce Resources

[Sildegaar]

I just wanted you people to brainstorm about the concept of scarce resources.

The idea is to say : ok, 10 000 lilacs have been harvested on that spot ... no more before x days. But people with a specific knowledge and essences (earth/water) and a few lilacs could plant in new spots (far enough from storage and shops).

 

It might not change a thing (just making things more realistic/complex), but it might change everything (imagine EL stock exchange going bankrupt because of a lilacs shortening !! hum, cool down)... it's a double edge sword but, hey ! I love swords :-)

 

PS1: you could also imagine breeding rabbits and deers, although the animal/monster system seems fine to me.

 

PS2: other newbie question/suggestion will it be possible to rent/buy tavern bedrooms or houses for real or EL money ? There only you could store some items for 1 day max for example, or restore and learn faster.

 

PS3: That was my first post, so please don't crucify me at once

[gadai]

The main problem, as I understand it Sildegaar, is that there is too much money in the game (???) not necessarily that mass production or harvesting is bad. The view seems to be that mass production/harvesting is what causes the gold overload. While I can see how this point of view developed I can't really support it.

 

For most players (less then level 60-70) who choose to develop skills besides fighting and alchemy any profits they make go straight back to the money sinks (wine, leather, vials, sanding paper) or are used up in the manu/crafting quests. In my time playing EL (admittedly less then six months) I've probably made 120-240k gold selling items to players or NPCs - and yet because of my desire to have a broad range of skills I have less then 5k gold right now - all that money went to the money sinks

 

Very few lower level players have complained about it being 'too easy' to make money - most of the 'we must balance the economy' suggestions come from established players with sizable bank accounts.

 

<EDIT>

 

My previous statement about suggestions coming from established players isn't meant in anyway to be an attack btw - they are approaching things from their point of view, part of which is influenced by their resources. Similarly my point of view comes from being (relatively) poor

 

</EDIT>

Edited August 2, 2005 by gadai

[Sildegaar]

I get your point Gadai and I know you're right.

 

I guess my idea was more : what if gold was a finite resource ? But of course this would lead to a few having it all, and the "people" wondering how to get richer ... the entire world would have to be PK for rich ones not to have the feeling of being untouchable.

 

Actually I was just impressed at how flower shop buy those billions of flowers while I'm not (and most, i guess, are not) buying one.

 

To go further with the scarcity concept, the idea was to implement an economic system where prices depend on the number of items available in the world/map.

 

Now this might be too much of a theoretical problem, while we are trying to get people have some fun, leveling fast enough not to find the game to difficult.

 

I still have to think about it myself ...

[ttlanhil]

it is too easy for new players to make money though. a player who knows what they're doing with a new character could be using the best fighting gear in the game (magic sword if they shell out real cash, tit serp otherwise) after a day or two of lilacs.

the best gear in the game.

the economy really isn't that good

having supply/demand pricing from NPCs would probably help here

 

I do love the idea of gardening skills, though, making the plants grow (bigger bush = faster harvest, maybe... real incentive for people to learn to garden) and harvesting them making them shrink or die off

you'd need dynamic maps for that, though, which EL doesn't have... yet

you'd also need safeguards about how much and where plants can grow (else you get a forest of lilacs near flower shops)

 

and last point, this could have gone in development -> suggestions

Edited August 2, 2005 by ttlanhil

[gadai]

I agree Ttlanhil that it can be very easy for a player who knows the game well, or a player with RL cash, to get to great eq very quickly.

 

In the first case (players with prior knowledge) this seems to be true of almost any online game - that bitter experience in previous characters can lead to a relatively easy experience on a new one. I know quite a few gamers who always consider their first character on any game to be an excercise in getting to know the game with the firm intention of creating a 'real' character at a later point.

 

I realise that new players are advised to harvest the lilacs and sell them - I would hope that the changes to the maps in the update will cause this to become alot less rewarding and serve to curtail this type of behaviour.

[Sildegaar]

I have been thinking about an Offer/Demand pricing system and trying to keep it simple. Here is what came out of this :

 

For a given item, set a Maximum Price (MP) and a minimum Price (mP).

Now, let's call Eq the total Quantity of this item Existing around the World TODAY

Let's call Sq the total Quantity of this item Sold around the world TODAY.

Note that you cannot sell more quantity than exisiting : Sq <= Eq

 

TOMORROW, the price (TP) would be :

if Sq = 0 then TP = mP

else TP = Max of MP*(1-(Eq-Sq)/Sq) or mP

 

in other words : if there is no sales of this item, then price is set to minimum

if this item is selling, then you decrease the price from the maximum depending on the ratio Existing/Sold, but not inferior to the minimum price.

 

Examples :

NPCs are willing to pay a max of 100 for item A and min price would be 10

case 1 : if the world wide resource today is 3000 and today only 100 are sold, it is not demanded, price goes down to 10

case 2: the world wide resource today is 3000 and all 3000 are sold, the item is demanded, price goes up to 100

case 3: the world wide resource today is 3000 and 1900 are sold, the price goes to 42,1

 

This means that for easy to find resources, prices will most of the time be set to minimum, while for scarce resources prices will go up.

 

Note: "Existing quantity around the world" could mean with or without storage depending on if you want people to be able to organize resource shortening (dangerous)

Note 2: This would also mean NPCs would have finite quantities of items and gold of course ! (poor newbies and mass producers !)

Note 3: I used a linear function, but you could think of others, like square or log.

Note 4: if you think i'm just brain screwed, don't bother telling me, I know already

Note 5: I'm not saying that would be easy to implement ! Plus it would deserve lots of tests.

[gadai]

While this would result in a more structured economy it would squeeze the maker type of player - the manufacturer the potioneer and the crafter.

 

Many manufacturers will produce pants, many thousands of pants, to raise their manu level. With the current pricing the manufacturers lose money making these and selling them to Trik, which is what happens to the majority of pants (Trik's army will never be short of pants - research continues about how to use them as weapons ). As such leather used for the making of pants (and the thread) acts as another money sink.

 

Equally crafters buying gem sanding paper would be crucified by this.

 

Similarly potioneers buying their wine (though admittedly this is a much less valid point because of the thriving SR/BR market).

 

If some way could be found to avoid harming the people simple trying to become better at skills such as exemptions for the aforementioned items then this system could be a good way forward.

 

A final point is that the existing quantity figure including storages should only be applied to the storages of accounts used within the last 30 days or something - otherwise the storages of the thousands of inactive accounts could throw the calculations off severely.

[Sildegaar]

Ok, I might have forgotten an important hypothesis :

with that kind of market, each and every item you can buy as to be makable, which is not the case for threads today for example. All items would exist in finite quantities (at a specific date).

 

Plus of course, all prices would have to be thought over, so that it brings a nice equilibrium into the force ... EL I mean.

 

But don't ask me to be there when implementing that system, lol : if you start from an existing universe (which would of course be the case) that can be big mess indeed.

 

Once again the problem is that NPCs have never-ending stocks of items and money. If you make those finite and they say : sorry, can't buy no more, then your character will have to think about a career change ... just like in real life. This because nobody would have bought from those NPCs, meaning the given item is useless in EL. Now you understand that all items would have to be usefull.

The most basic items could be threads, gem sanding paper, etc if you want to level up, since you know that many (NPCs or not) will buy them to manu or craft.

 

Now ... I realize that this would be a real challenge to implement, both for programmers and users. Well, let's say the current system is fine, lol. I wish i could put a hand on one of those NPCs bank accounts ...

[Captain_Smile]

Take Sulfur. If its all locked in CC, newbies have to walk to Morcraven Marsh, which is quite impossible unless you have 20/20 att/def and if you come armoured.

 

For some things like Lilacs, its just fine. But for some ressources, it just won't work.

Positive point is that the FE prices will blow up, including the EFE prices.

It could force people to walk further to get their ressources, thus making the trip longer. And personally, making my HE is quite long enough

 

 

Im not expressing a total disagreament with the idea, im just showing that on some ressources, it might reserve the simplest thing to do in alchemy (FE) and other essences for higher levels to people who developped att/def. Then if I follow the path of a FE & EFE, it could possibly make weapons and armor more expensive, because if FE become as expensive as ... hmm... 6-7gc each, EFE will also suffer perhaps a 2k increase, making it 9k (I think). Manufacturers will also suffer, as their ingreds cost more. They allready have trouble selling top notch equipement (plate&serps) because of their prices, it would be not too good to increase the price even more.

 

Tell me if you consider my chat offtopic

 

Captain_Smile

[Aerowind]

One Problem (I just read the first post so be quiet) If I'm interpreting this right, your saying in one day (ingame most likely) one spot holds 10,000 lilacs this would be gone by like 5 people in about 30 minutes, so if you come on hour two, you would have to wait another 5 hours 30 minutes to get lilacs in that spot... that's dumb...

[Captain_Smile]

I only read the first post too xD

[Sildegaar]

Indeed you only read the first post ;-)

[Sildegaar]

Please think a bit further : what if you could learn to grow flowers, investigate rocks for sulfur, etc.

You would be able to find/develop new spots but still with finite possibilities (some specific soil needed, so that Seridia won't become a huge field of lilacs).

Now you say : what if I can't find lilacs for my potions ? Well you buy them because if you cannot find lilacs, it means that they all were sold to flower shops so prices are down.

And now you say : what if I'm a newbie with no money to buy flowers : well one richer dude will hire you for money because he needs people to get some work done: going to a pk map to get some book, for example.

Why couldn't he get the job done by himself ? because resources are scarce so you need to coop to find and get them faster. Plus such a system would force people to specialize so everybody is not 69/69 on all skills.

 

Note that for the system/market to work you need to be able to create (manu, alch, investigate...) ANY resource : sulfur, thread, wine, etc.

 

Actually my point is : I've been able to reach level 24 on my own, not talking to anybody nore doing any quest ... and one can do that in just a few days. I think that kind of system would force players into interacting (not just to say hi).

 

Now I know the goal is to have fun ... finding the balance with realistic processes (manu, economy, etc) is difficult. I just think it is worth investigating.