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Definition of some offtopic

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Only been playing EL since xmas, but have noticed the 'topic' syndrome on C1 too. It seems to me that there is an undue amount of confusion and annoyance over what people can talk about. The rules do state that some off topic chat is allowed. That means just that - some off topic chat IS allowed. It should not be open to interpretation, but the definition of 'some' needs to be sorted.

I'll help you understand the definition of "some"...

 

Off-topic chat in channel 1 is ok as long as it doesn't bother anyone, it doesn't scroll text off the screen before the newbies have time for reading it, and no NH/mod has told you to stop.

 

Once any of those three things happen, it's not ok anymore, and you need to move to channel four if you want to continue the discussion.

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Er, why would you want to misquote me?

 

Its a shame the other thread has been closed, because I would've like to copy my entry in its ENTIRETY.

 

I also wonder why you would want to carry this on, when it was RESOLVED in the other thread!

 

To summarise, I stated that c1 was prone to people having heated debates about people saying topic, when the rules before the update were a bit vague, hence the 'some off topic chat is allowed' problem. I also suggested that the rule should apply to everyone, and not just when someone decides to say 'topic', and thereby ending what could of been an interesting conversation. I won't go into detail here, but helping noobs, reading text when it is scrolling off screen due to excessive chat, etc, were discussed. And I suggested that maybe some ideas could be thrown about. The post by Leeloo above, was entered, and I responded by saying that he proved my point:

 

"long as it doesn't bother anyone", isnt in keeping with the 'one rule for all' ethos.

"and no NH/mod has told you to stop.", again, this means the rule is open to personal interpretation, and someone cannot just say 'topic'.

 

I also said, this was now a moot point, due to the update including the F5 key showing current rules.

 

So, the subject was brought to an end.

 

But for some reason Leeloo has decided to ressurect it, and start a whole new thread, with myself being misquoted! Why?

 

All my posts were respectful, curteous, never personal, and it all came to an end. But it seems some just want this to carry on, and on, and on! Indeed, the feeling about off topic chat does run deep!

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Actually no, Leeloo did not resurrect this. The problem here is that this was mostly a spam topic that had a valid issue thrown in. I had originally locked and ended this topic, complete with an explanation. However, the topic was supposed to have had the spam deleted and this particular subject, including all related posts, was supposed to remain but instead only leeloo's post remained.

 

You are not misquoted, that IS what you said. And I also said that "some offtopic" IS subject to interpretation, and the amount of it and subject matter allowed are variables depending on each situation. And I closed it, being one of the mods in charge of this forum and on channel 1 given the responsibility to moderate it in the best way I see fit. I'm not sure what ideas you want to throw about, this issue is NOT a "one rule for all" situation. Leeloo's definition fits perfectly the fluid nature of a channel.

 

And in closing...if you are dismayed that what could turn into an interesting conversation is cut short in channel 1, please remember that we have channel 4 which is general chat, where you are more than welcome to go to continue that interesting conversation. Thats why it is there.

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"Some" offtopic is defined by a moderator who is on the channel and common sense rules.

 

Regards.

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what I think is:

 

Channel 1 is for newbies, meaning new comers asking questions and all.

Channel 3 is the market channel, it should be for selling and buying.

If someone is getting annoyed, you should stop it..

 

If your going to talk offtopic, join channel 5 or on the local chat ;)

and if you don't you'll be moved there, and you wont be able to get out of it for a while, trust me :)

Anyway, thats what I think.

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Aisllinn, using only a small part of what I said, ignoring the rest, then including a response to my post, but further ignoring my response to that, IS misquoting.

 

I agree, the post was closed, I helped it to be so! I said that this was now a moot point due to the rules being updated with the f5 function key.

 

So, I repeat, why is this carrying on?

 

But if we are going to carry this on, let me know, as I have a few things to say about your 'this issue is NOT a "one rule for all" situation' (no, its a situation with vague rules, hence my point), and your "...if you are dismayed that what could turn into an interesting conversation is cut short in channel 1, please remember that we have channel 4 which is general chat, where you are more than welcome to go to continue that interesting conversation. Thats why it is there" (this I already dealt with in when I said I don't see people changing channel en masse) statements.

 

Leeloos definition is simple stating the situation before the update. It obviously didn't work then, so I don't see why anyone thinks it was a practicable solution.

 

" "Some" offtopic is defined by a moderator who is on the channel and common sense rules". So, a moderator can let a conversation carry on, or end it, depending on who the mod is? This is unfair, as the 'flavour' of the channel relies on who happens to be a mod at the time, ad not on the rules. Who knows what is allowed? Common sense rules? Whos? People have different ideas about what is common sense.

 

This, I can see, is going to go on, and on. I don't want to have to repeat everything I said because only a tiny bit of what I said is being used to start a new thread. I repeat, this is a moot point since the upgrade!

 

And to further repeat... indeed, 'the feeling about off topic chat does run deep!'

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Why does the rules being available with a function key change anything? Those are the same rules that you are complaining about.

<short>No offtopic chat in newbie and trade channel</short>

<long>Only SOME offtopic chat in the newbie channel and marketing channel will be allowed. Marketing channel is much stricter then newbie channel. The general chat is channel 4.</long>

The reason why it's up to the moderators to decide is that this is the only solution.

 

Why are you even arguing about this? You are no newbie, you have nothing to do in the newbie channel.

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Marantz:

1)http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=quote Please note #3...therefore you were NOT misquoted.

2)Yes the thread was closed, but you had nothing to do with it. And what exactly does the fact the rules now are shown with the f5 key have to do with anything? They are still the same rules, only now you can see them.

3)This is carrying on because you are carrying it on.

4)Just because you don't see that people will move to another channel doesn't change the rules. The option to move is there, there are many available channels to choose from, if people don't find the subject matter worth moving for, maybe your assessment of "interesting conversation" is flawed.

5)Leeloo's definition does work when it is enforced. The game creators/developers/mods have come up with these rules and system of enforcing them. If you are unhappy with them, as mentioned before, there are many other channel options to choose from.

6)All "offenders" are given a warning...I use the term loosely here...so that should give you an idea if you crossed the line. If you are at all familiar with channel chat you should have a pretty good idea what is acceptable and what isn't...this is a family game after all.

7) And again, how does the upgrade change anything?

As Leeloo said, the purpose of channel 1 is newbie help...if you aren't there as a newbie needing help, or as somebody to offer help, why are you there? If its general conversation you are looking for, maybe try joining a guild or hanging around a storage area...

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Im not complaining about anything, its CLOSED! Sigh...

 

I will take your points one at a time...

 

1. F5 function key brings up the CURRENT rules, and are accessible in game, thus ending the debate about what are the current rules.

 

2. Yes, Im a noob, been playing 4 weeks only and still learning.

 

3. Im NOT arguing about anything. I have already stated (several times) it is closed. However, I WILL debate points thrown towards me.

 

4. Misquoted: ""To quote incorrectly". including quoting PART of a passage thereby giving the impression of other than the intention...", therfore I WAS misquoted.

 

5. Er, I think youll find I finished the last of the points with my saying it was a moot point, therfore I did have something to do with ending the thread. I didn't close it from an admin level, I helped draw it to a logical conclusion.

 

6. My assessment of interesting conversation isn't flawed, but your lack of acknowledging there was a problem on c1 is. It is NOT in human nature to change channel en masse. People will congregate around those channels with the highest populace.

 

7. The rules didnt work when enforced, hence the number of heated debates about people asking about the discrepency in the rules.

 

As I said, this is closed, so why carry it on?

 

I think I need to make 1 or 2 things clear... all I did was suggest that it might be useful to tighten the defintion, or think about something else. It IS now a moot point, the f5 key now brings up current rules (I have seen this used in c1 on the FIRST day of the update, so yes, it IS relevant).

 

As for my 'carrying on', as you put it... you yourself said that you meant to make this thread closed with all the salient points made permanent. You didn't do this, rather you allowed a NEW thread to be started with me being misquoted. All I did was sought to clarify my position.

 

So, please, allow me to do that.

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Marantz, you were not misquoted. If you want to state that your statement was taken out of context, you might have a case. However, if they quoted you without editing that phrase, then it is a valid quote.

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Semantics. And I think we are missing the point. Or should I say, 'topic'.

 

But, if we are going to dwell on detail...

 

mis- (comb, form) wrong(ly), bad(ly),

 

quote copy or repeat passages from, refer to, esp to confirm view...

 

So, yes, I was misquoted, or taken out of context, or (substitute similar phrase)!

 

And my point, again, is the quote is from a now DEFUNCT thread.

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Here's an idea!

 

1) Ask a question *once* on newbie channel.

2) Wait for answer.

If no answer comes, type #help_me and then your question.

3) Type #jc 5/4/100+

4) Offtopic until your heart is content.

 

Rinse and repeat.

 

For selling and buying:

 

1) Advertise. Use only one line, meaning don't press enter more than 2 times for your statement.

2) Wait.

IF nobody answers, leave.

3) See steps 3 & 4 above.

 

If nobody bought or sold to you, you may try again after about one hour.

 

Do this, and you will have no trouble from moderators.

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" "Some" offtopic is defined by a moderator who is on the channel and common sense rules". So, a moderator can let a conversation carry on, or end it, depending on who the mod is? This is unfair, as the 'flavour' of the channel relies on who happens to be a mod at the time, ad not on the rules. Who knows what is allowed? Common sense rules? Whos? People have different ideas about what is common sense.

Why it is not fair? The main role of the moderator is interpretating the rules, if he does it

wrong seems he cannot be a moderator, some people also are more strict and some less.

Of course this interpretation has to be within moderators regulations and in game rules.

I am a moderator who is more strict, one part of people hates it and part loves it - it is quite

normal, I am usually not allowing any constant offtopic on the channel 3 but in exchange

I am rather avoiding using punishment, I am asking first, sometimes even numerous times

before doing so, and I am using #kick or #mute only if I am absolutely forced to.

Market channel is stricter moderated because it is a tool for the game economy, and people

who come there are usually not newbies so they are supposed to be more mature, have

more knowledge about the game and game rules. I see nothing not fair here. Also

moderators are dividing duties between each other, so it is quite usual that I am on channel

3, and I will answer your help request, on channel 1 you will meet TirasHazor or Crannog

etc. so it is not that you have to know a moderator to behave, you just have to know

common sense rules, surely no one will instantly mute you if you will go offtopic, rather you

will be warned first and warning means that you came close to the allowed border.

 

Regards.

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Wow, so my little old misquoted quote is pinned?

 

Why you didnt just leave the original thread open, or close it properly, instead of messing it up and restricting it but allowing me to be misquoted to start a NEW thread, and further compunding this by pinning it, seems a trifle...... silly.

 

Anyway...

 

Platyna, you raise some good points, but they do go back to the original, (now closed, unfortunately) thread. A moderator , in my opinion, does NOT (or SHOULD not) interprete the rules, he ENFORCES them. They should not be interpreted 'on the fly', rather they should be set in stone before hand.

 

That means one set of rules, clearly defined, consistently applied, and applied to all.

 

Referring to the people you state who hate you upholding the rules..... if it's blatant rule breaking, then yes, mute them or what ever. But what about those guys/girls who say 'hey hang on, why can't we chat? The rules say some off topic chat is allowed. I saw a mod chat yesterday, why can't we chat today?' Is that not due to the inconsistency of the rules, and the fact they are interpreted, and not explicitly defined? (a la 'some off topic chat is allowed')

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I saw a mod chat yesterday, why can't we chat today?

Because when questions need to be answered or things need to be sold and/or bought, somebody talking about how great their video card is makes it harder for the proper things to happen. If a mod tells you to be quiet, obey for a while, then after everything is settled, ask if you can go off topic again.

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Look, Marcus Tullius Cicero said: Summum ius summa iniuria. (Extreme justice is extreme injustice.)

Moderator is a work with the people, people has their feelings, various attitudes especially on such

international community like on EL. Moderators has to respect these people to, actually, moderate them.

This is something besides only rule enforcement, especially if rule has a hole made for purpose: SOME

OFFTOPIC, since various people has a different sense of "some" unless there will be a strict definition

of "some", made by the admins always a moderator has to decide when offtopics goes too far, that

"hole" in rules in made in faith that moderators knows common sense rules and can see the difference

between good and bad. Some offtopic depends of various conditions, such like the date, for example at

24 of December when there comes bunch of the people and are wishing each other Merry Christmas -

muting or kicking them wouldn't be accepted by anyone, since everyone is actually concerned into

"atmosphere", so moderator to bring some order announces 10 minutes of offtopic allowed, people who

had good intention will wish others good holidays etc. and those who tried to abuse that special

permission will be kicked out anyway. There are also things when the community is very upset, it is better

to spent 5 minutes into convincing them to calm them down and encourage to move hot temperatured

discussion on channel 4 than actually muting 20 people in a row. So, as you can see moderator work isn't

only a blind rules enforcement so I think I've quite valid point if I will say that definition of some offtopic

belongs to the moderator. Of course if some moderator can't define offtopic in the acceptable way he

cannot be a moderator.

 

Regards.

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The problem with trying to move people to channel 4, Platyna, is that a lot of people won't leave, they'll just argue about how right they are, which leads us into this circle once more.

 

I've actually been trying to draw people to other channels, but it's surprising how hard it is to influence people.

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Again, good points.

 

NewestNewbie, you're assuming that is the ONLY scenario, it isn't. What happens when a chat session is going on, and NO noobs are asking questions, and a mod says 'topic'? Why say it? This IS a common scenario, and the response typically given by the people talking is, 'but noone is asking questions, the rules say some off topic chat is allowed, so why can't we ask questions?'.

 

And that is the crux of the problem. And I have to say, I haven't yet seen that question answered satisfactorily when it is asked.

 

Having said that, I have to say, good work on trying to move people to another channel! It will be hard, as I mentioned, people won't change channel en masse, but in my opinion you are trying a different tact, instead of just saying 'topic', and that should be applauded!

 

An alternative approach I saw working on the day of the update with remarkable success is to use the F5 button. Should the rules be broken, mention that pressing f5 will bring up the current rules, and that they are overstepping the mark. Then maybe issue a warning. If the unruly behaviour continues, then mute/kick/what ever.

 

The argument of not knowing the rules etc is then invalid, due to invoking the f5 current rules command.

 

It should be noted, that I am in favour of off topic chat, but I am MORE in favour of establishing a clearly defined set of rules to be applied to all - so long as they work.

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And that is the crux of the problem. And I have to say, I haven't yet seen that question answered satisfactorily when it is asked.

Er... Did you mean "...so why can't we talk about other things?" Because er... You can ask questions. :lol:

 

It will be hard, as I mentioned, people won't change channel en masse, but in my opinion you are trying a different tact, instead of just saying 'topic', and that should be applauded!

 

It's the only tactic I can use because I have no powers, and if I yell "topic," then I'll be kicked for spamming. B)

 

An alternative approach I saw working on the day of the update with remarkable success is to use the F5 button. Should the rules be broken, mention that pressing f5 will bring up the current rules, and that they are overstepping the mark. Then maybe issue a warning. If the unruly behaviour continues, then mute/kick/what ever.

 

I'll try that.

 

It should be noted, that I am in favour of off topic chat, but I am MORE in favour of establishing a clearly defined set of rules to be applied to all - so long as they work.

 

Thank you for the disclaimer.

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The best way, if peple are doing something nasty on the channel is calling a moderator if he is not on

channel, yelling "topic" may only make people more angry at you and more spam. Anyway "Topic." is only

a reminder for the people so they should stay on topic, when discussion goes too far, and if there are

multiple players yelling topic with a moderator channel becomes extremely spammy and moderator very

confused because he would like start muting these people who are yelling offtopic because they are

generating more spam than actually offtopicers, some of kids on channel likes using "Topic!" just as new

way of spam. So, if moderator is on the channel it is good idea to let him do his work. About rules

highlighted in red - it is already done, you get a rules window and warning from the moderator.

 

Regards.

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1. Add ... to the beginning and end of his quote, implying there was more to it...

 

2. USE THE GOD DAMN DENOOB FUNCTION... it's there for a reason.

 

3. Be glad I'm no longer a NH...

 

4. Carry on with your lives, it's just a game...

 

2 cents,

Swiss

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Denoob kinda not works on channel 3. :-)

 

Regards.

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That means one set of rules, clearly defined, consistently applied, and applied to all.

 

Referring to the people you state who hate you upholding the rules..... if it's blatant rule breaking, then yes, mute them or what ever. But what about those guys/girls who say 'hey hang on, why can't we chat? The rules say some off topic chat is allowed. I saw a mod chat yesterday, why can't we chat today?'

I've got to admit that MarantZ has a good point here.

 

If there is a rule it should be applied to all. I too have seen some Moderators chatting away and using the channel like their own personal chat channel. Then in the next sentence they are calling 'Topic' to the rest of us. A bit hypocritical don't you think?

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"What happens when a chat session is going on, and NO noobs are asking questions, and a mod says 'topic'? Why say it? This IS a common scenario, and the response typically given by the people talking is, 'but noone is asking questions, the rules say some off topic chat is allowed, so why can't we ask questions?'."

 

"Er... Did you mean "...so why can't we talk about other things?" Because er... You can ask questions."

 

Yes, NewestNewbie, thats what I meant! Mistyped!! LOL!

 

"Carry on with your lives, it's just a game..."

 

Agreed!

 

"If there is a rule it should be applied to all. I too have seen some Moderators chatting away and using the channel like their own personal chat channel. Then in the next sentence they are calling 'Topic' to the rest of us. A bit hypocritical don't you think?"

 

Adyna, yup, thats exactly the sort of thing I'm reffering to!

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