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Your views on how to promote the pk server and what would you change


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#21 bkc56

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 07:15 PM

And another issue I had was that I couldn't afford to pay for like 5 alts so I had to work slowly while lots of people kinda sped along.

That's pretty funny. Most people didn't have an army of alts. I've only got one alt (Kaldoon) who was only used for contests for the first year or so. Even now the only thing I use him for is harvesting dung to support my tailoring work. It would be perfectly reasonable to have one alt to fully support a fighter char. No army needed.

Edited by bkc56, 10 January 2010 - 07:16 PM.


#22 Pride

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 08:06 PM

I know not everyone has an army of alts, but some did ;) I dunno about now, but yeah I'mma see if I can pop by the server and give it a go

#23 handyman

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 08:40 PM

I know not everyone has an army of alts, but some did ;) I dunno about now, but yeah I'mma see if I can pop by the server and give it a go



It would be great to have you back

:[ I remember Sistema and I were the only ones left in MASH ;_;



Good old mash :)

I dont think its that people wont pk on here its just a case of making it challenging and exciting.
And of course more players more pking.

After most players fizzled out the server did pretty much split into 2 sides. With some new blood and the ability to pk each other would change things over here.
I cant be bothered at the moment to find someone activate MI and trade sr's for 10 minutes then dis and tele. I want lower level players to be able to gang up on me and have good tactics in battles. not just throw a loads of summoning stones about.On the main we used to attack stronger players get them on the back foot with potion cooldown and as they dissed someone else attack so they could not use a ring because of that cool down. all this made PKing fun.

I wonder just how much work it would take to just put cool down back on rings and potions or like Bkc56 said put it back on all items then ruduce it to 1 second on fruit and veg

Handy

Edited by handyman, 10 January 2010 - 08:44 PM.


#24 Pride

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 08:46 PM

:)
if you find any chars can you let me know through PM?;)

#25 handyman

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 08:51 PM

will add you to the list ok

We are still after un-wanted char donations guys as you can see pm me of Bkc56 thanks

Handy

#26 bkc56

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 09:01 PM

We are still after un-wanted char donations guys as you can see pm me of Bkc56 thanks

I've received two donations so far (thank you muchly) and have re-allocated them to people to try the server. Just one condition - if they decide to not play, or if they buy their own char after trying it out, they return the char to me so I can let someone else give it a try.

#27 DHT

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 10:48 AM

I don't know if the alliance of some of the guilds was a reason, but it didn't seem like much people attacked each other. I dunno how it's like now, but perhaps erasing the #set_ally_guild command might bring things up a bit.

You can still set a green color for another guild, as if on NAP conditions. Actually, that's what MAD guild has done - we don't have any allies, only green tags, so if we want to PK anyone, we're free to do that (and the good thing is, the summons of the other guild don't attack us unless they're told to :) )

#28 ProHibited

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 12:36 PM

As I see it there is no pressure from 'teh community' to NOT pk someone. There is as much PK going on as YOU want.
PK is NOT just casting restore and drink potions... Use ranged, summoning, invisibility, don't play fair and surprise your opponent. Shooting an semi-afk harvester is more fun then it sounds :)
You don't NEED to pk all day long. When you see some potential targets online, do your thing :hug:

After a long time of training/PKing, there are still those other skills just waiting for you.
No cooldown makes the 'other' skills much more fun. Limited playerbase means YOU (new player) can reach the top really fast. The economy here is so much better, the rare items are really rare and not just 'expensive'.

The changes discussed since the start of this server that will attract more players will not be introduced before these new players have arrived and the playerbase has grown. Should it not be the other way round? Not really, who says the changes will work... Sow everyone join now and then see what we can change.


Because of the differences to the main server there are so many unexplored tactics, it is an opportunity to reinvent the way you play EL. B)

#29 DHT

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 02:10 PM

Well said.

#30 Korrode

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 04:20 PM

This is just my personal view, and what i would want, but i believe a lot of people want the same:

I do not want to have to spend years getting to the upper combat strength limit, it's a PK server, i want to go there and have fun, competitive PK.
I do not want to have to run a mixing or harvesting alt to setup for and then upkeep the PK'ing, again; it's a PK server, i mostly just want to PK on it.

So, some of the things that prevent all this from happening:

1. No cooldown. This is already mentioned by many, i wont elaborate.

2. Pickpoint buying still exists there, so the end of combat strength is not a few months of training to get to 100/100 a/d, it's YEARS of on-going work buying more and more pickpoints. It's been previously stated that people getting continual, near never ending combat strength increases is the design of the main server. I think it's a bad design there, and an even worse design for a so called ' PK server'.
Even if pickpoint buying is still to this day not very common on the PK server, the system is still in place, and if more people were playing and more nex removal stones were found, it would become more common, thus it's still a major deterrent.

3. No OA cap. People can get an edge on me by spending hours upon hours on non-combat tasks post 100/100 a/d. I want level, balanced, competitive PK... not Mr. 12 hour a day player always being miles ahead.

4. Competitive PK setup costs: Dragon armors, SoM's, BoD's the full array of top level weapons, at least 350 hydro bars for a bought human nexus 7, etc.
The amount of time it takes to amass everything required to be at the competitive edge is way too long, and involves way too much non-combat. Again; I'm not there to spend months or even years getting setup to PK, I'm there to PK. The setup time needs to be relatively short.

5. Competitive PK maintenance costs: Bronze swords, Accuracy and Evasion potions, summoning stones, EMP's, equipment breakages, etc.
The time that needs to be spent on mundane resource gathering tasks to upkeep PK is still HUGE. Again; I'm there to PK.


So anyways, those are some reasons why i quit the PK server. Some people may disagree with my idea of how a "PK Server" should be, but those people should seriously consider if their idea of what it should be is ever going to be an attractive game for the masses.

I realise all i've done in this post is state what's wrong, and not really offered any specific solutions on how to fix it, but frankly, that's because history would have me believe that typing this is a waste of my time and that it will all fall on deaf ears and nothing will change... so i'm not willing to spend any more time on this topic and go into in-depth detail on how to address these problems unless i see Radu post on this thread saying he would seriously consider major changes to the server's design/structure.

As always: just my opinions, take em or leave em.


EDIT:

Sow everyone join now and then see what we can change.

Never. Going. To. Happen.

Generally, people don't start playing a crap game in the hope that it will become good. They start playing a game they already know, or have at least heard is good.

Because of the differences to the main server there are so many unexplored tactics, it is an opportunity to reinvent the way you play EL. :)

Are there some differences from the main server? Sure, of course there are... but it's not as different as you make out, and that's one of the key problems. PK ain't all that active there, thus moving more-so away from the design/structure of the main server is something i would consider a good idea.

Edited by Korrode, 11 January 2010 - 04:56 PM.


#31 LewisCarroll

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 06:46 PM

Pk-Server is fine as it is now. That is not the problem. The problem is that people seem not to understand what the Pk-Server actually is.
There just wont be pking like on main. Its no surprise people are disappointed if they come over to the Pk-server just to pk, not to play EL with a different setting. Maybe it would help to see the Pk-Server as a quite similiar but still different game.

Maybe best thing to do is a name-change (sounds lame but some might need this to get things right)+ perhaps a bigger button on the EL site.


(And I'm not getting tired to promote this: install an Info-bot on main, to give info or to work as a inter-server-pk-central-thing)


oops - did I just post this again :)

#32 Korrode

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 07:01 PM

Pk-Server is fine as it is now.

Well you've got jack-all players, and bad player retention right? It's not like it's just advertising it that's the issue, the server used to have many more players than now, but most quit, yeah? I had an account on there and quit, i have numerous friends and guildies that went and gave the server a try for a while but quit. I'm not speculating, it's fact.
I'd consider that definitive proof that it's not "fine as it is now"

That is not the problem. The problem is that people seem not to understand what the Pk-Server actually is.

Well considering it's name and considering like 90% of it is PK areas, i'd think it's a server where you'd expect to be spending most of your time PK'ing.
I understand exactly what it currently is, the point is that what it currently is isn't attractive to most people.

There just wont be pking like on main. Its no surprise people are disappointed if they come over to the Pk-server just to pk, not to play EL with a different setting.

See above.

Maybe it would help to see the Pk-Server as a quite similiar but still different game.

...and the point of that would be? what? split the 'normal' (not necessarily PK oriented) playerbase (that's already not huge) across 2 servers?
Sounds pretty fail to me.


Sorry if i seem a little aggressive or derogatory in this post, but i really can't help it when i see posts that are so ill conceived and so hugely lack common sense, logic, foresight and hindsight.


EDIT:

(And I'm not getting tired to promote this: install an Info-bot on main, to give info or to work as a inter-server-pk-central-thing)

There's been PK server advocates coming on the main server advertising the PK server often enough since it was launched. I still sometimes see it in chan 4 nowdays.
You say the PK server should be seen as a "quite similiar but still different game" for people to "play EL with a different setting"; so who are you trying to attract? For the most part, you're not going to attract the non-PK oriented members of the EL community to a server where it's 90% PK area.
The people who are by far most likely to be interested in a server where it's 90% PK is PK'ers, or those who want to PK.

Edited by Korrode, 11 January 2010 - 07:22 PM.


#33 DHT

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 07:23 PM

@Lewis: there's some truth - maybe if the servers were called PvE and PvP instead of Main and PK, it would change, but in that case it would mean there would be almost no PK on Main server, only in arenas. Or am I getting the concept of a PvE server wrong? I haven't played that many MMORPGs really, I settled on EL when I found it.

@Korr: Maybe if you understood PK as killing not one at a time, but maybe many against many at once, more like a battle instead of a duel, it would come clear to you, that even if the player has an edge on others in a duel, he's still just a soldier in a battle (considered there's cooldown on pots and rings)

From your ideas stated above it looks like you don't want people to have advantage if they pay $ or invest time. If a person buys a bus ticket s/he should have the advantage of getting from point A to point B faster, safer and in a more comfortable manner, as compared to the person who doesn't buy a ticket, tries to reach point B on food, gets hurt, cold, or even bored and whines about those who paid for the ticked saying it's unfair.

The way I see PK server when there are more people is that guilds would not only be a common tag on players, but also same goal and playing style, i.e. they would walk in teams and work together to achieve their goals, instead of those lonesome so-called PKers waiting in KF (mostly alone), afraid to lose their gear.

Of course, the server needs some tweaking, like removing nexus removals (at least until there's an alternative, abuse-proof way for their usage), BoDs, BroDs, dragon armors and such. BUT working your ass to get a tit set and having an edge in PK shouldn't be considered unfair - that person actually invested something to get it. If you think everyone should fight with low-end gear, then I ask you - what is there to fight for? How is that competitive if everyone has same items that they can get 5 minutes after a fight if they broke/were lost? That's only logging onto the server when you're bored to do something else. THAT kind of server would have even a smaller player base than the current one. Why would you need more than one map if you're only there to PK? Why create a server for one map? I hope you get my point. By no means I say that your ideas are wrong. All I'm saying is that you should think outside of the fight-only-do-nothing-else-and-fair-for-every-12-year-old box.

And once again, I hope Radu reads this too and thinks about it as a business owner.

#34 Korrode

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 07:52 PM

@Korr: Maybe if you understood PK as killing not one at a time, but maybe many against many at once, more like a battle instead of a duel, it would come clear to you, that even if the player has an edge on others in a duel, he's still just a soldier in a battle (considered there's cooldown on pots and rings)

Oh sorry, guess i haven't been playing EL for nearly 4 years, much of that time as an active PK'er in both arenas and KF, at times tagless, at times in big guilds, small guilds, underdog guilds, dominating guilds... i must've dreamt it all, my bad. :rolleyes:
My concept of PK includes equal parts 1-vs-1 and group battle fighting, and everything i've said applies to both.

From your ideas stated above it looks like you don't want people to have advantage if they pay $ or invest time. If a person buys a bus ticket s/he should have the advantage of getting from point A to point B faster, safer and in a more comfortable manner, as compared to the person who doesn't buy a ticket, tries to reach point B on food, gets hurt, cold, or even bored and whines about those who paid for the ticked saying it's unfair.

I think on a server where the goal is for there to be a lot of PK, that is enjoyable for the majority of people who would partake in it, it's imperative that the achievable upper limits on char strength be reachable in a relatively short period of time.
This trend is already set by the a/d cap, which greatly indicates that what i'm saying is at least somewhat how the server is meant to be even from day 1... the problem is just that the a/d alone only makes up part of the melee combat strength... having the a/d cap but not the other stuff i describe just makes the server feel like a half-done-job.

Of course, the server needs some tweaking, like removing nexus removals (at least until there's an alternative, abuse-proof way for their usage), BoDs, BroDs, dragon armors and such. BUT working your ass to get a tit set and having an edge in PK shouldn't be considered unfair - that person actually invested something to get it. If you think everyone should fight with low-end gear, then I ask you - what is there to fight for?

I don't think and never said people should be in uber low end gear. I mentioned removing stuff like dragon armors, as you did.

How is that competitive if everyone has same items that they can get 5 minutes after a fight if they broke/were lost?

How does the pace of which people can replace said broken/lost items have any impact on how competitive the actual combat is?

That's only logging onto the server when you're bored to do something else. THAT kind of server would have even a smaller player base than the current one.

PK instances.
CTF style PK games.
PK wars for some form of region control.
Even PvE activities that are actually fruitful and fun.

Guild wars has an extremely short character development cycle, yet they retain a playerbase thousands and thousands of times bigger than that of EL... i don't think it's me who's not thinking outside a box.


Foremost; The most simple and unarguable fact is: the PK server as it stands does not attract, nor retain many players.

Edited by Korrode, 11 January 2010 - 08:15 PM.


#35 DHT

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 08:57 PM

Oh sorry, guess i haven't been playing EL for nearly 4 years, much of that time as an active PK'er in both arenas and KF, at times tagless, at times in big guilds, small guilds, underdog guilds, dominating guilds... i must've dreamt it all, my bad. :rolleyes:
My concept of PK includes equal parts 1-vs-1 and group battle fighting, and everything i've said applies to both.

That's the problem. You've played as a PKer, so I guess all you want is some slash'n'bash action, while on the PK server there's still harvesting and mixing, not only PKing. That's where your concept of PK server is ill. Seriously, it should be named PvP Server (and be free to play with no multi :pickaxe:)

I think on a server where the goal is for there to be a lot of PK, that is enjoyable for the majority of people who would partake in it, it's imperative that the achievable upper limits on char strength be reachable in a relatively short period of time.

The goal is to be able to PK, not to be able to PK everyone, and that's reachable in a relatively short time. There will always be stronger players than you or me. Especially if they invest more time and/or $ into developing their chars. As for the mixers/harvesters, most of them don't mind being PKed every once in a while. They usually hate being chased or camped for by much stronger players, who can just as easily pick more equal targets.

This trend is already set by the a/d cap, which greatly indicates that what i'm saying is at least somewhat how the server is meant to be even from day 1... the problem is just that the a/d alone only makes up part of the melee combat strength... having the a/d cap but not the other stuff i describe just makes the server feel like a half-done-job.

I don't think and never said people should be in uber low end gear. I mentioned removing stuff like dragon armors, as you did.

No, but you said it should be replaceable in a short period of time, which implies it's low-end gear, at least up to iron set. Players will never be even from day 1. Some will have better gear, some will have better skills, others will have different builds and fight in team battles and so on and so forth. As for server being half-way-done, you describe what the server would look if you were creating it. Unfortunatelly, it's Radu in this case, and he implements what he sees to suit best. We should address him with all our comments and suggestions in this topic, not each other.

How does the pace of which people can replace said broken/lost items have any impact on how competitive the actual combat is?

I'm talking replacing from 0 - not taking into the consideration the amount of gcs or raw ingredients they have at the time. If you take a week to replace an item, you PK less, train less, so you become rusty compared to other PKers who don't break their items or take yours, and thus they might become stronger, un-even compared to you.

PK instances.
CTF style PK games.
PK wars for some form of region control.
Even PvE activities that are actually fruitful and fun.

Again, you forget other skills. No offense, but this isn't QELServ, where there's only combat. That's your concept of a PK server, while in this case it actually isn't. More fighters -> more mixing/harving needed -> more protection needed -> more teamwork -> all the activities you said, at least most of them.

Guild wars has an extremely short character development cycle, yet they retain a playerbase thousands and thousands of times bigger than that of EL... i don't think it's me who's not thinking outside a box.

Guild wars have different character builds included, while from your point of view everyone is even and everyone can PK everyone. If the server was PK-only, the items needed should be attainable from PKing, quests, NPCs, PvE. And I mean all items. Think about how much time you would need to get gcs to buy the SRS, HEs, rings, other potions you need for PK? And the armor/weapons. If there's no OA exp after A/D cap, there's no point in killing mobs just for gc, at the very least it would bore you to death. The OA exp and ability to further improve your character is a bonus for the never-ending Feros/DCW bashing. Taking into considerations there's regular cooldown on items, you wouldn't be able to farm Yetis and above with A/D/OA cap and no nexus buying.

Foremost; The most simple and unarguable fact is: the PK server as it stands does not attract, nor retain many players.

I agree. That's what this thread is for. For ideas to improve it, not to flame the current playerbase/lack of it. Which actually includes you, so-called PKers, who tried the server and left, thus adding to the lack of PK action/playerbase. Flaming on yourself ftl. I know, sounds a bit stupid, but here's some thinking out of the box for ya.

not @Korr: I believe most of the concerned players agree that the legal multi, no-cooldown and uber strong items need to go. That's what we should concentrate on, not redo or remove the server altogether. Improve. Read the topic.

EDIT: ...and the server should be free to play, if the multi was made illegal of course. The 5$ lost per account wouldn't have much impact if the players buy more items from the shop as the playerbase increases. /EDIT

@Korr: maybe it's just the history between us that plays a role here, but we're actually talking about the same things, each of us forgetting some points on which we both agree, but still argue pointlessly. Again, let's take it all to Radu, not each other.

Edited by DHT, 11 January 2010 - 08:59 PM.


#36 LewisCarroll

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 09:12 PM

@Korrode: Sorry dont meant to be rude above.

The problem is that people seem not to understand what the Pk-Server actually is.

Well considering it's name and considering like 90% of it is PK areas, i'd think it's a server where you'd expect to be spending most of your time PK'ing.


Well that's what I meant: Its just a server named "Pk-Server" and with like 90% PK areas. That does not mean it is a server where you spend most of your time PK'ing.

Maybe it would help to see the Pk-Server as a quite similiar but still different game.

...and the point of that would be? what? split the 'normal' (not necessarily PK oriented) playerbase (that's already not huge) across 2 servers?


Again you misunderstood me here: There just might be people that like the Pk-Server setting better. E.g. I came for the possibility to pk everywhere - not for actual pk-ing or mixing with no cooldown

#37 Wizzy

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 10:41 PM

@ All the naysayers

You come here and ask for opinions why the pk server is not working, what could help bring more players, when we (those who lost intrest with the pk server long ago) give you some of our opinions you say we dont know what we are talking about ..etc..etc..

Well, maybe listening to some ideas before shooting them down may be more helpfull then saying we just dont understand.

Well. It has been a year since I played on that server., but I understand this. If something does not change, the server will remain the 15-20 people on line average. Maybe listening to some of the reasons people left the server would help re populate it?

#38 handyman

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 11:07 PM

I do understand the argument about from scatch it taking a long time to get to any sort of level to be able to pk top players. That is where the 100 a/d cap comes in sooner or later you will have a server full of capped players.
We did also look at char coping from main but there were to many ways that could be exployted.

As for o/a cap would that be really needed do you know how long it takes to level o/a when you are not leveling a/d. It takes forever

Ok going back to cooldown on pots and rings: This will make all top players vonuable, weeker players can then gang up on stronger players.

The great thing about multi play is even if you dont want to spend hours mixing their is always players with ess and pots to sell. Also getting gc on this server is easyier because of multi play.

Rare items This can be monitored by ent as to the amount of people playing, but after two years I have 3 nexus removal stones and I doubt more than 10 have been in the game so far.

Yes this is a pk server but its also great for mixers. I dont think we need to change that ballance just tweek a few things.

But most would agree to no nexus buying and no brods, But we do need goals things to achieve and things to work for thats what keeps players interested.
At the moment the only PK skill on this sever is attack someone when that are harvesting or training. I would like that to change.

Handy

#39 handyman

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 11:24 PM

@ All the naysayers

You come here and ask for opinions why the pk server is not working, what could help bring more players, when we (those who lost interest with the pk server long ago) give you some of our opinions you say we dont know what we are talking about ..etc..etc..

Well, maybe listening to some ideas before shooting them down may be more helpful then saying we just dont understand.

Well. It has been a year since I played on that server., but I understand this. If something does not change, the server will remain the 15-20 people on line average. Maybe listening to some of the reasons people left the server would help re populate it?



It was listening to ex players and Pkers on main that I got most of these ideas from.
Unfortunately this is a debate and at times can get heated
Most players left after a few months because they missed their high end armors and weapons and didnt want to spend another 2 years building new chars. Most of these were the people that wanted this PK server and helped to mold it from the beginning. They thought they missed old school pk.

I do take on board what is being said and games like guild wars and evony (which has over 60 servers) are proof that it can work and maybe should be looked at.
But you are talking about a lot of work to change this server we are talking about tweaks and that would be hard enough to get Ent to do (NO disrespect meant).

Also some of these post are now getting long so a summery at the end would be good
And let try to keep it civil guys

Handy

#40 ChrisC

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:03 AM

face it, the server is dead, and it probably all will be. Nothing is going to get done. i havent seen ent post here once. why dont you ask him what he is willing to do to make the server grow (get him more monies!!1~), maybe then will something get done




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